Massachusetts Cop Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
102 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all, just recently im pretty sure all of you have seen on tv or in the paper the killing of a 27 year veteran of the providence police department,apparently the individual who committed the crime was just brought in to be questioned although he was not in cuffs i disagree with it i am for him being in cuffs because although you handcuff an individual they are not under arrest they are only in custody,prior to questioning him you read the miranda rights and then begin to question does anyone agree with putting him in cuffs while he was being questioned? although the detective had a pancake holster which is relatively easy acess to his firearm, i just think that they should all be in cuffs whn they are being questioned,hopefully Police Departments learn something from this all over the country.
thanks
 

·
MassCops Member
Joined
·
134 Posts
You cannot handcuff a suspect and then interrogate him. That is called an ARREST. Unless you can articulate that the individual is a threat to your safety or their own safety. That scenario very rarely happens though. Generally interviews are always conducted with uncuffed suspects, unless you have already locked them up and are conducting a post arrest interview. Unfortunately, we can't just handcuff every person we come into contact with. And let's stop Monday morning quarter backing this hero. It must be nice to be f-ing perfect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
102 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
?? you have a point but are you telling me that if you respond to a disturbance of a big crowd and they stated that a fight broke out but theres about 5 people and you dont know the truth you wouldnt line them up and cuff them and run papers? just because you cuff someone doesnt mean they are under arrest i can go to a domestic call and handcuff the male and run papers and if hes neg and this is there 1st incident i can clear it make a report and let him go,so whats the big deal?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Nightcoppa is right. There were some relatively recent court decisions which further limit the use of handcuffs on individuals who are not under arrest. The literature I've read makes it very clear that the use of handcuffs in these situations should be rare and that, when they are used, the officer(s) must be able to articulate specific reasons why they felt they needed to cuff the suspect(s).
 

·
MassCops Member
Joined
·
134 Posts
NBPD,
That is a totally different scenario than what you were asking about earlier. The Providence Detective wasn't killed in a situation that you described in your second post. What are you talking about? He was killed at the station. And as I replied to your first post, we cannot just cuff EVERYONE. This job always has and always will have an inherent risk to it. Sometimes bad things happen. This Detective is a true hero, and should be celebrated as such.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
547 Posts
Of course you can cuff a male on a domestic call. One, he's not being interrogated and two, he's a harm to the female who is involved in the domestic. That's a completely different situation then what went on in Providence.

I'm sick of everyone saying "shouldn't this have been done, shouldn't he have done this?" Maybe he should have done something differently, but none of us were there, he DIDNT do something differently, and unfortunately the prick killed him. If YOU were the cop in this situation, do you really think your family would be pleased with seeing everyone Monday morning quarterbacking the situation? Let the man rest in peace. No one was there to actually see what went on, so stop with the "I woulda done this" BS.
 

·
Czar of Cyncism and Satire
Joined
·
2,070 Posts
NBPD,
Get a grip fella. You show up to a fight after the fact and you want to cuff 5 people & run paper on them? It's called an affray, a simple misdemeanor with no right of arrest unless you witness it. Unless someone is busted up real bad, you declare a winner & send all parties on their way.

nightcopppa is right. A guy in an interrogation room is always unhandcuffed while being questioned. Maybe there should have been 2 detectives in the room. Maybe he should have had a better holster. Maybe he should have put the gun in his desk and locked it up. Maybe, maybe, maybe, ad infinitum................ We never will know what happened in that room so quit making assumptions on what should be done. I will never second guess a 27 year veteran.

What I do know is that scumbag probably recieved an asswhoopin' of monumental proportions by Detective Allen while wrestleing for the gun. He further compounded his injuries in that 35+ foot free-fall onto his melon. His bad decision making was again displayed when he fought 2 RISP and 1 PPD cop and one FBI guy who probably helped out a little bit because he didn't want to scuff up his shoes too bad!

Let's not forget that this scumbag went through a car windshield a week or two prior to this incident. Those scars seen on his forhead, above the "Hanibal Lector" mask were from that episode, not his recent arrest. He was scrawling "I have AIDS" on his cell wall, spitting at officers, hence the mask. As we all know, he's a calculating SOB who deserves a death sentence for his crime. The RI ACI C/O's won't take it too lightly either since he has shown a propensity for violence & spiiting blood at them also. I hope he likes being isolated 23 1/2 hours a day. He'd better get used to it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
What disgusts me almost as much as the suspects actions, was how his family members were flipping out at his arraignment. The guy killed a detective in cold blood, jumped out a window with no regard for his own safety, add to that all the other facts Housing mentioned, and his damn mother was acting like her little angel was a victim. All I can see is that he was a victim of his own actions. Am I missing something?
 

·
MassCops Member
Joined
·
535 Posts
NBPD,
Don't take this the wrong way but unless you are a full time police officer keep your thoughts and Monday morning quarterback to yourself. Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
OK guys, I am going to try and clear some of this up. I am going to flip the F... out if I hear someone else questioning why a great Cop like this Detective did not cuff this animal while conducting an interview. First of all we have no argument, you don't cuff suspects during an interview period. The act of doing this would, in the eyes of the liberal Judges, rise to the level of an arrest all day long. They are in your station, they are cuffed, they are not free to leave, they are arrested.

I am now going to give you a short version of the real story, as heard from a Providence Police Officer.

5 Detectives were present in the interview room with this scumbag. 2 Detectives then had to leave to respond to a shooting. This left only 3 Detectives in the room. The suspect was then thought to be planning his attack. The suspect then asked one of the Detectives for water. The Detective then went to get water. Only 2 Detectives remained in the room. The suspect kept asking for water, until he was able to get 1 Detective alone in the room. The suspect then attacked the detective and took his gun. The interview room door is an automatac closing door that locks from the inside. The Detective was then heard on the radio yelling for help. The Police Officers had to break down the door to help the fallen Officer, who had allready been shot. That is a short version of the story, and I hope that helps shut up all of the ignorant bastards who dare second guess this hero. None of us were present, and none of us have a right to question anything. Lets just all pray for this brave Police Officer and his family, and remember this could be anyone of us someday.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
Although I share your distress at the frequency and tenacity of the criticism and second guessing involved in this case, I don't believe it to be soley the result of malignity. Many officers ask such questions as a coping strategy to negate the anxiety that such an incident could occur to themselves, albeit often times ineloquently. They look for mistakes and or singular factors in the chain of events that could differentiate the experience from that of their own. It is an outgrowth of our own vulnerability and the innate desire to protect ourselves. In that light the discussion itself can be important if properly and respectfully framed.

But for the grace of God all of us could have been killed in much the same way if only a subject with which we were in contact had the will to do so. Every prisoner has to be unhandcuffed at some point, it is an unavoidable certainty. We have to walk the line as we do in so many respects in not circling our wagons to the degree that we fail to learn from experiences and better arm ourselves. Many patrol procedure classes involve watching the video of the constable during the drug arrest when he is jumped and murdered. To the uninitiated a forensic dissection of that stop complete with criticism would seem callous and disrespectful. Quite to the contrary, the lesson is invaluable and that officer's and his loved one's unfathomable loss has borne forth lessons that saved the lives of others. What can we learn in this case? I am not so presumptuous as to know, however we should not be so quick to extinquish an exchange of ideas of whether interrogation room doors should be designed so as to lock in such a manner or weapons should be allowed in said rooms among other issues.

Just my two cents.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
SPD3, I understand what you are saying, however the difference between this case and the training cases you speak of is simple. We in Law Enforcement use tragic incidents, and the things Officers did wrong leading up to them as a form of training once all the facts are known. Clearly all of the facts in this case are not known yet. Therefore it is much to soon to second guess the actions of this Officer. This is an area we have to be very carefull with.Also I learned a valuable lesson years ago when I was a screw at the super max in Shirley. You should not judge a man unless you yourself have walked in his shoes.

I was covering an Inmate movement period with several other C.O.s. We were talking about an ass kicking an inmate had taken in my unit a few minutes prior, when another C.O. came walking up. This particular C.O. had been beaten up several times by inmates. As a result of these beatings this C.O. had been knocked out a couple of times, and got his nose broken. As he approached us, another C.O. made the comment " Speaking of getting your ass kicked" This C.O. then responded with " like I tell everyone else, until you get in a 1 on 1 fight with a con, shut your mouth". Approximately 10 minutes later the we all returned to our units. The C.O. who made the fresh comment then got in to an fight with a con, which led to him getting savagely beaten, and knocked out cold just as the guy he had made fun of had in the past.

The morale of the story is very simple. We are all very cocky, and assume we would handle a violent situation on the job better than the last guy did. Here is where we need to be carefull, because until you have walked in this Officers shoes, we do not know how we would react to a similar situation. And if you are to cocky, you might just find yourself in the same situation, and we will all be sitting hear judging you. I hope some of you can learn a lesson from this.
 

·
BOOM!
Joined
·
1,353 Posts
GD";p="63882 said:
NBPD,
Don't take this the wrong way but unless you are a full time police officer keep your thoughts and Monday morning quarterback to yourself. Thanks
From some of his other posts, it appears that NBPD is a CADET somewhere. Pretty ballsy for a new person to this board to second guess a 27 year veteran who has probably FORGOTTEN more Law Enforcement information than NBPD will EVER know!!!!
 

·
Lemme take a selfie
Joined
·
5,841 Posts
I was watching the news recently and saw another commentary regarding the piece of shit who took the late detective's life. The family and supporters of this shitbag actually have the balls to wear shirts depicting his face on the rear of a t-shirt with somewhat of a high school graduation picture of his face and the word "before" above the picture. On the front of the shirt there is a picture of him in court with the face mask and swollen eyes and the word "after" above the picture. Anyone else see this?

How about we all get t-shirts that have a picture of Det. Allen in uniform on the front that say "before," and then on the back there can be a picture of his gravestone and it can say "after."

Getting real angry with all this liberal "the cop killer is the victim" bullshit... :evil: :evil: :evil:
 

·
MassCops Member
Joined
·
134 Posts
This f_cking topic infuriates me so much that I literally cannot even talk about it. God forgive me, but I would like to stomp the living shit out of that little shitbag and his entire family. Sorry for the language. And if NBPD is a cadet somewhere, I hope he really truly considers another line of work. We don't want guys like him.
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
87 Posts
First of all my heart and my prayers go out to Detective and his family, no one should even consider the man nothing short of a hero. And I can understand the anger and frustration on the board with anyone with no experience making stupid statements as to what should or shoud not have been done. However, as sad and as fustrating as it may seem, we need to discuss as a family the facts of the case as they are known. There were some mistakes that were made, there were some errors in the design of the room, there may have been some errors in the design of the holster or the way the weapon was carried, there may have been some errors in judgment. This does not diminish the heroism and valor of the detective, this does not excuse the actions of the defendant. Discussing and analysing what occurred does not invalidate the ultimate sacrifise this detective made. However, if mistakes were made, we as police officers must learn from them and discuss them. This may seem cold and unduly critical, but it is important for the survival of the next detective or officer that may find himself in that position. Often police departments shy away from analysing events because they feel it may reflect badly on them or because the feel that it is being critial of the fallen officer. When you stop reviewing history you are bound to repeat it. It would be nice if this board had a secure area for verifided sworn police officers where a direct discussion of these types of events cant take place. I feel one of the best ways to honor a fallen officer is to have his sacrifice help save the lives of those who follow him. If anyone has the complete facts on this event I would apprecieate an email so that I may share it with others in my department on our secure web sight.
Stay alert, stay safe
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
1,316 Posts
nightcopppa";p="64141 said:
This f_cking topic infuriates me so much that I literally cannot even talk about it. God forgive me, but I would like to stomp the living shit out of that little shitbag and his entire family. Sorry for the language. And if NBPD is a cadet somewhere, I hope he really truly considers another line of work. We don't want guys like him.
yeah what he said only meaner :evil: and louder!!!!!! :twisted:
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top