Senate’s sweeping police reform bill would end qualified immunity | Page 5 | MassCops

Senate’s sweeping police reform bill would end qualified immunity

Discussion in 'Politics & Law Enforcement' started by USAF3424, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. JD02124

    JD02124 Supporting Member

    I had always assumed choke holds were A no-go unless it was a life or death situation.... now with this bill even if you're gunna die and a choke hold is you're only option your better of dying....
    EUPD377, Joel98 and zm88 like this.
  2. msw

    msw MassCops Member

    I think the term "choke hold" is thrown about with a lot of imprecision. An arm bar on the throat? What about a carotid restraint?
    Joel98 likes this.
  3. j809

    j809 Subscribing Member

    You’re better off poking their eyes out with a knife in a deadly situation then grabbing them by the throat.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    FAPD, Bloodhound, mpd61 and 2 others like this.
  4. j809

    j809 Subscribing Member

    One of our sergeants, a few years ago was fighting with a guy in the middle of the road. Guy was trying to reach for his gun, they were on the ground and held him by the neck and vice versus until an EPO drive by and assisted him. Things could have gone very bad quickly. So under the new rule he would have been charged and decertified. Unreal

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  5. 02136colonel

    02136colonel Supporting Member

    A couple thoughts...
    The house vote was less than a 2/3 majority. We should all be contacting Gov. Baker’s office and asking that he veto any bill that eliminates qualified immunity, or imposes the kind of impossible UOF standards that Atty Scheft describes in his recent memo.
    When you sit down to write a letter/email to Governor Baker, also consider emailing your State Rep and asking for their support for HB 4611 (COVID presumption for public safety), and asking that the provisions be made retroactive. It’s been reported favorably by the Public Safety Committee, but is currently under review by Ways and Means.
    I think the argument for transitioning to two-man cars is stronger than ever now. Two police officers can restrain a person with less force than it would take for one person, 99.9% of the time. Suspects are often less likely to fight when there’s two of us there. And let’s face it- we’re human. There are times when situations become heated/emotional. Having a partner there, allows for the partner to step in when the situation starts to heat up.
    mpd61, NEPS, zm88 and 1 other person like this.
  6. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    My Department has had two officer patrol cars for the last 60 years. I agree, two officers are "wicked" better than one. It's not perfect but it's definitely better. Fights still happen but I'd rather do it with two of us than one.
    PBC FL Cop, mpd61, Joel98 and 3 others like this.
  7. RodneyFarva

    RodneyFarva Get off my lawn!

    Negative, go right to lethal force.
    Drebbin, CCCSD and Joel98 like this.
  8. 02136colonel

    02136colonel Supporting Member

    I totally agree, much safer, and probably less likely to end up in front of a grand jury/on CNN etc. Having two officers there, one can provide lethal cover if necessary while the other attempts to resolve the incident without lethal force. Safer for the officers, and the members of the public we encounter
    Joel98 likes this.
  9. NEPS

    NEPS 75th N.H.P.A.

    Yes, definitely write to the Governor. Even send attach LED's memo. But don't forget to write your senator and representative as well and send it to them. The differences between these two bills will need to be settled in a conference and that is where the final bill will come from before going back to the Senate and the House to be passed and sent to the governor. The Senate did not have the benefit of Atty. Scheft's memo before senators voted. (For some reason the Mass. Chief's letter to Senate Ways and Means 07062020.pdf did not even mention a concern about the use of force standards.) If the bill is passed again by both houses and vetoed in whole or part by the Governor it comes back to the Senate and or the House again. The Senate and House must both override the veto by a 2/3 majority or the Governor's veto stands.
    Make no mistake, the UoF standard is the bigger deal than qualified immunity. Qualified immunity is the process by which you are judged -- and this proposed state statute will apply only in suits under state law, not federal civil rights lawsuits. The new and very restrictive UoF will provide the standard by which you will be judged.
    02136colonel and j809 like this.
  10. CCCSD

    CCCSD MassCops Member

    Or...the other officer will stand there and video you struggling, all the while they tell you to stop using illegal force.

    Fucking millennials on up...
    Joel98 likes this.
  11. JD02124

    JD02124 Supporting Member

    No shit....
  12. j809

    j809 Subscribing Member

    How many people will pull the plug earlier ? I wanna do 5 more to. 70 percent. I’d need 9 more for 80.

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  13. mpd61

    mpd61 Retired Fed, Active Special

    Hopefully you're still in the drivers seat. See how the BS Bill shakes out, If the Campus jobs survive, go early with 70% and do what Al did. You could be top dog and still be mid 50's. Or quit whining and grind it out till you're old and cranky and take your 80 and hope the Daughter will let you live in her basement.:cool:
    CCCSD and Goose like this.
  14. j809

    j809 Subscribing Member

    I’d never do campus again. Hate to deal with other assholes kids anymore. I’ll do details but that’s it.

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  15. PPD54

    PPD54 Highly Dedicated, Slightly Motivated

    After 11 years, I have four shifts left and am headed to a FL sheriffs department. At least it's a red state for now that has a little respect for the job. Maybe I'll end up in recruiting and take all of your applications. Stay safe up here, but I wouldn't blame anyone for walking away....I am.
    Kilvinsky, mpd61, res2244 and 8 others like this.
  16. Joel98

    Joel98 MassCops Member

    Good for you, congratulations.
  17. Sgt Jack

    Sgt Jack Subscribing Member

    Congratulations and Good luck. I got to do the Florida Sheriff's thing for a quick stint on the Gulf Coast. Some days I wish I was back there. Just a quick couple of things. Even though you have 11 years here you will have to unlearn and re learn some things so expect to be out of your comfort zone for a bit starting out. It's a bit humbling actually. They love Signals and Ten Codes on the radio so get ready to talk in arithmetic. You will meet the craziest of the crazy. Yes we have them here but a few months of them here is a week in Florida. Don't expect a hugh Detail or OT culture like Mass, yes there's details and ot but it's not like here. YMMV depending on the agency. They will give you legal cheat sheets but I never saw anything like what LE dimensions puts out. You will be able to do more as a deputy as far as stopping people/arrests/searching etc. Guns, lots of guns, guns are no big thing. Get ready to go to Walmart ALOT for retail theft calls. Good luck and you can PM with what agency your going to if you want. I was in Sarasota County.
    PPD54, LA Copper, Drebbin and 2 others like this.
  18. Drebbin

    Drebbin MassCops Member

    Good luck and welcome to crazytown. I went from Mass to an out of state agency. Sgt Jack is right on about re learning cop stuff. It's pretty humbling. You will want to say "back in Mass we did it this way". Don't. They won't want to hear it during training. Just be a sponge and take it all in. Congratulations.
  19. Drebbin

    Drebbin MassCops Member

  20. USM C-2

    USM C-2 MassCops Member

    Fifteen years in Mississippi here. I only made it back home last month.

    Ten codes! The first time I turned on my radio I heard something like "L-14, 10-17 Johnson Science Tower, Room 403 on the 4th, 10-49 Professor Higgins for a 10-86 10-98."

    Wait, what?

    A few years ago I was back here visiting friends and was listening to my old Mass. department radio. Everything I heard I mentally translated into ten codes. Nothing to worry about, it's like learning a new language by being dumped into a foreign country. Eventually you just absorb it.

    Gangs and drugs - lots more of both, unless maybe you're leaving a big-city gang unit. Gangster Disciples, East Coast Crips, Simon City Royals were our big 3 but YMMV.

    Guns. Everywhere. I took more guns off of people as a campus cop (in a city) than I ever did working in Mass.

    Culture - Where we were, everyone played nice, more or less. If something big happens, every Jack and Jill with a badge rolls on it. With their hard armor plate carriers and AR-15s. Even if they're in shorts and flip-flops. Little to no territoriality.

    The pay and budget are generally poor, since local tax receipts rule. If business is bad, you'll get laid off. Your patrol car will likely be a few years old, maybe with 100K or more miles on it. On the good side, it might still be a Crown Vic!

    Our radio systems were the best part of the job. Post-Katrina the state and feds poured a shit-ton of $$$$ into the MS-WIN system. I'm pretty sure there's a LWIN in Louisiana and a similar one in Alabama, all integrated at least on the coast. Some agencies don't even install a vehicle radio, your portable will work fine even clipped to your belt inside the car. Inter-agency channels, state-wide coverage, etc.

    Criminal procedure - as a patrol cop, you're expected to cuff them and toss them into a detective's lap. Unless it's a DUI or a warrant, you aren't expected to know jack about criminal procedure. Good thing, since it gets all of 8 hours in the academy... maybe a little more but nothing like you got here. But, the state courts don't issue many decisions on procedure. Federal courts generally set your limits. Google the FLETC Informer for a monthly legal update.

    Lack of job security, low pay. But, public support in general is better. And no snow.

    But, fair warning. Body armor (level III generally) is always worn and it is in the mid-90's with high humidity from early June through nearly October. If you aren't prepared for that, you'll suffer.

    If you are prepared for that, you'll still suffer, you just won't be mad at yourself.

    I'm glad I made the move. I got to meet great cops, the food and music are fantastic, I had experiences that I could never have had here. But it isn't home. Good luck what ever you decide!
    Hush likes this.
  21. NEPS

    NEPS 75th N.H.P.A.

    For those interested, the House Bill passed Friday evening. It was amended a lot, but kept the same UoF language as the Senate Bill. The amended House Bill may be found here for anyone who wants to strangle a day reading through it:

    I understand that the game is not over on the UoF language, though. The concerns in LED's memo have moved through the legislature and made some waves. What happens now is the Senate and House appoint members to a conference committee to come up with one compromise bill based on both. This bill then must pass both Senate and House before going to the Governor. Pressure may still be applied to all three of those entities.
    mpd61 likes this.
  22. RodneyFarva

    RodneyFarva Get off my lawn!

    From Rep Tim Whelan:
    Friends, I am proud to announce that House Minority Leader Brad Jones has selected me to serve as his appointee to the Conference Committee that will work to resolve differences between the House and Senate versions of H.4886 / S.2820- the policing reform bills both recently engrossed in the House and Senate. I look forward to the work ahead with my legislative colleagues and while I cannot make any promises of what the end result will be, I can promise you that I will bring every one of my 26 years of first-hand law enforcement experience to the table for our discussions and will give this important assignment everything I have. It is important to everyone that we do this right. Thank you for your support and friendship. A link to both engrossed versions of the bills is below:

    FAPD, Joel98, j809 and 3 others like this.
  23. mpd61

    mpd61 Retired Fed, Active Special

    So currently in house version;
    MPTC is out, replaced by Commission on Police Training and Certification (CPTC)
    Under the CPTC, they outline a Commission on Police Standards and Training. (sounds like a POST)
    Down another level, they create the ten (10) member Committee on Police Standards and Training. This committee would consist of five Governor-appointed Chiefs, one from each geographic region, the MBTA Chief, one member from Mass Chiefs, a police officer agreed upon by MPA/MPTOA/BPD Commish/Derr Colonel MSP, and finally two (2) Sheriffs.

    The mandatory training delineated covers such before unheard of topics as domestic violence, sexual assault, bicycle safety, and SRO. How innovative and progressive. Technology such as bio-metrics are to be restricted. The "Imminent Harm" definition is both ludicrous and impractical. The UoF is all over the map. Actually pretty darn disconcerting.

    The only decent thing I can see is there are multiple references to training for special, reserve & intermittent officers.
    the topic of auxiliary seems to be missing?
    FAPD likes this.
  24. res2244

    res2244 MassCops Member

    Whats the 411 for the R/I academies specifically?? Im still unclear on the status of their validity under this new oversight agency
  25. RodneyFarva

    RodneyFarva Get off my lawn!

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