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Which would you prefer?

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Various different departments field patrol rifles in different calibers and different configurations. Some deploy select fire capable rifles while others use semi-auto rifles.
Recently the FBI and DEA started fielding semi-auto Rock River Arms rifles, a seemly significant departure from some previous purchases. What are your thoughts?
What does your department use?
 

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semi-auto, you're accountable for every round fired. too much liability if you let loose a burst and a high flyer hits an innocent. maybe some use in some srt/stop/swat team use but not as a cruiser / patrol rifle. :2c:
 

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Delta9 @ Tue 21 Sep said:
semi-auto, you're accountable for every round fired. too much liability if you let loose a burst and a high flyer hits an innocent. maybe some use in some srt/stop/swat team use but not as a cruiser / patrol rifle. :2c:
:dito:
 

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Marlborough has semi-auto Bushmaster M-4s in their cruisers. You don't have to worry about stray bullets and you dont fire more bullets than what was necessary. Firing one bullet at a time gives you more control on your shots.
 

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Select fire includes the option for semi auto., there are very few full auto only guns in this world that are viable for LE use.

Marlborough has semi-auto Bushmaster M-4s in their cruisers. You don't have to worry about stray bullets and you dont fire more bullets than what was necessary. Firing one bullet at a time gives you more control on your shots.
 

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Select fire includes the option for semi auto., there are very few full auto only guns in this world that are viable for LE use.
Why do you need a fully auto in Mass. Its not like there is going to be a North Hollywood Shootout in MA. You just gotta learn to pull the trigger really fast if you want a lot of lead flying out of a semi-auto rifle in a very small amount of time. Full auto is ideal in the "hood" when you want to sweep a line of gangsters blasting away at you with some heavy artillery. Also, fully auto weapons is what ammunition makers and dealers would recommended if you know what I mean.
 

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I doubt you have any tactical training, firearms knowledge, or law enforcement background after posting a response like that. I think you may have been playing a little too much Grand Theft Auto Vice City or the newer San Andreas.

Select fire has a very distinct role in law enforcement and it is NOT just to put a lot of lead in the air.

Select fire includes the option for semi auto., there are very few full auto only guns in this world that are viable for LE use.

Why do you need a fully auto in Mass. Its not like there is going to be a North Hollywood Shootout in MA. You just gotta learn to pull the trigger really fast if you want a lot of lead flying out of a semi-auto rifle in a very small amount of time. Full auto is ideal in the "hood" when you want to sweep a line of gangsters blasting away at you with some heavy artillery. Also, fully auto weapons is what ammunition makers and dealers would recommended if you know what I mean.
 

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I havent had any tactical training but I will in the future when I begin pursuing a LE career but my dad has had the most tactical training on the Marlborough Police and tells me a little about they taught at his classes he attends that the department assigns to him. Judging by a reply you posted earlier, if you are a PO, your a trigger happy PO. Would you like to join the Military and use some full auto weapons, they are trigger happy. I have never played GTA but my friends are obsessed with it. I think that game sucks.
 

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marlboroughpd @ Tue 07 Dec said:
I havent had any tactical training but I will in the future when I begin pursuing a LE career but my dad has had the most tactical training on the Marlborough Police and tells me a little about they taught at his classes he attends that the department assigns to him. Judging by a reply you posted earlier, if you are a PO, your a trigger happy PO. Would you like to join the Military and use some full auto weapons, they are trigger happy. I have never played GTA but my friends are obsessed with it. I think that game sucks.
Then it's not you that knows about the guns and the way they work and how they fire and what not. It's your dad that knows so don't come on here acting like you know everything because daddy is a cop.

Scott
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It's not an issue of being trigger happy it's an issue of matching a firearm to a tactical need.
I'm not a police officer, I have been in the military, and I am a firearms designer, consultant, trainer, and dealer. I have the following FFL's 01,03,07,10. I also pay about $4000 a year in taxes to be able to manufacture firearms, NFA weapons, and destructive devices.
I take my work very seriously and try not to just make random off the cuff remarks about weapons systems. These items can save lives as well as take them and they are prolly some of the most serious pieces of equipment a person would use for his or her job.
A word of advice, there are lots of real operators here, lots of LE and lots of military/former military, to characterize them as being trigger happy "Would you like to join the Military and use some full auto weapons, they are trigger happy"...not a bright thing to do.

I havent had any tactical training but I will in the future when I begin pursuing a LE career but my dad has had the most tactical training on the Marlborough Police and tells me a little about they taught at his classes he attends that the department assigns to him. Judging by a reply you posted earlier, if you are a PO, your a trigger happy PO. Would you like to join the Military and use some full auto weapons, they are trigger happy. I have never played GTA but my friends are obsessed with it. I think that game sucks.
 

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Then it's not you that knows about the guns and the way they work and how they fire and what not. It's your dad that knows so don't come on here acting like you know everything because daddy is a cop.
I know how they work and fire, a lot of people not in LE or in the Military know how they work and fire. Also, the extras in SWAT, the one with Collin Farrel and Samuel L. Jackson, show you everything you need to know about working and firing an M4, AK-47, MP5 and some other guns used in the movie.

Posted Tue Dec 07 2004, 17:59:

Sorry SOT if I offended you or anything. I respect your knowledge and occupation, but the way you were talking earlier made me think you were trigger happy I guess.
 

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UMM, I have been in the military for the last 10 years or so, i am infantry, an army sniper, Navy EOD I have been to a half dozen diffrent shooting schools and have been in every armed conflict/peace keeping mission since somalia and that broad general comment about the military being trigger happy was completely outta line & highly offensive. :x

thank us "trigger happy" folk for the freedom in which u possess. But do not make comments that u are obviously not qualified to make.

"Nobody loves a soldier till the enemy is at the gates"

A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living.
--John F. Kennedy--

The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.
--George Patton--

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
--George Orwell--


I & many like me are NOT trigger happy, rather we are surviving and doing good things! please refer to the quotes above.

:sb:

Also, if u think that a shootout like the 1 in north Hollywood couldn't happen in MA then I got 1 word for u COLUMBINE. B4 sept 11 no one thought of people flying planes and bring down both twin towers. Maybe u should think a little b4 u make statements like the ones u have just made. just a suggestion.
 

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I prefer the select fire with the tri-burst option. With the tri-burst you really don't get any fliers and the group stays somewhat tight if you're within the 50yd marker. Full auto should not even be an option for the patrol cars.
 

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marlboroughpd @ 05 Dec 2004 15:17 said:
Select fire includes the option for semi auto., there are very few full auto only guns in this world that are viable for LE use.

Why do you need a fully auto in Mass. Its not like there is going to be a North Hollywood Shootout in MA. .
:roll:
OKAY!!! he gets my vote for "head in the sand" award for 2004.
 

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UMM, I have been in the military for the last 10 years or so, i am infantry, an army sniper, Navy EOD I have been to a half dozen diffrent shooting schools and have been in every armed conflict/peace keeping mission since somalia and that broad general comment about the military being trigger happy was completely outta line & highly offensive. :x
EOD1, THANK YOU for what you do, we are deeply indebted to you (and all our troops) for your sacrifices on our behalf!

As for FA/burst/SA for patrol rifles for "general purpose" LEOs (not those in specialty units), I want to add my 2-cents. Also, I'm only going to address this relevant to the more "urbanized" areas of MA (Eastern MA, cities and suburbs) where the population density should contribute to any firepower decisions and differs greatly from vast unpopulated areas such as can be found in some areas of the Berkshires (as one example).

In Eastern MA, the chiefs that I know are all bureaucrats operating in a hugely anti-gun (and anti-gun includes doing the "minimum to get by" for training officers in firearms use) environment, with very limited $ resources earmarked for firearms training, and very few places where officers can actually do any tactical firearms training (all the PDs that I know beg local gun clubs to use their ranges for FREE for their limited training). Most gun clubs are also in built-up areas where a stray round can shut them down in a heartbeat (e.g. which happened in the Reading area a number of years ago).

I hope everyone agrees that to properly control FA/burst requires a lot of good tactical training, something that is extremely rare in Eastern MA. In this area most PDs only do training 1-2x/year and due to limited budgets they can't just hand out ammo for the officers to train adequately.

I assisted our PD in swapping 3 smgs for 7 M4s. Internally an instructor and a young officer (who used to be a firearms mfr rep prior to going FT PO) convinced the brass to go SA instead of FA/burst. Shortly after they got them, the instructor who was the best AR15 advocate gets activated and has an "all expense paid trip" to Iraq! The training officer left with the task of training/deploying the M4s is NOT a believer in patrol rifles but a "shotgun guy". The officers are given VERY MINIMAL training with the M4s (according to one officer the training was no more than 2-3 hours) before they are deployed in the cruisers. Talking with a number of the officers, they told me this and a few commented that since they were former military "it all came back to them" . . . .but many never served in the military and it was the first high-power rifle experience for them.

My friend (PO) returned from Iraq and invited me to join him at the local gun club as he was qualifying the officers. What shocked me was that he told me that it had been 17 months since any of the officers had fired the M4s!

Given these type of circumstances, I believe that SA patrol rifles are definitely a better strategic move than deploying FA/burst. Adequate training (in my mind) would be at least monthly and if that were ever to be a real option then perhaps FA/burst might be viable for patrol rifles . . . .but I never see that happening here in Eastern MA!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I think the trend is moving exactly the way you speak for several other reasons as well.

1. Paperwork: Even departments have to deal with BATFE paperwork when "going full auto". It's also somewhat "insulting" for some departments to have beg daddy "FED" saying yes or no or delaying their purchase of firearms. As well the paperwork can take MONTHS.... As a dealer the BATFE has tightened up so hard on how many machine guns I can keep in inventory often times a department needing a couple three replacement sub guns would have to wait additional months. Where as if they wanted a standard semi auto patrol rifle...come on in, step up to the counter, give my your department letter, take the gun with you.

2. Liability: Granted any gun out in the world that has been stolen is bad...but inherently it's worse if it's a machine gun.

3. Training: it does require more training for full auto guns, however many full auto guns have semi auto. My recent most favorite "patrol rifle" as they are called now (more marketing) the sig 551 and 552 both have "full auto lockout" a manual device executed from the inside of the action to restrict full auto. It can be "turned on/off" by anyone that knows how to field strip but it requires popping the gun open.

Two points that I don't entirely agree with:

1. I assert that the use of full auto weapons in LE is predominately an urban issue, not a rural issue. I would hazard that if you were to consider when the most use of full auto based on pure percentage of calls/full auto use....you are going to find the eastern part of MA has more full auto guns then the departments in the west.

2. As it seems departments are going away from subguns to assault rifles, there is concern for the "spray and pray" and the unleashing of rifle and sub rifle caliber rounds and energy down range and what bad things that's going to do. To this I say, one round or ten off the mark is a liability. Full auto isn't the problem per se, the over all lack of training is.

Now to add to this debate, it's interesting to see that the DEA and FBI tactical teams have chosen a semi auto M4 style rifle from Rock River Arms as their new gun.

UMM, I have been in the military for the last 10 years or so, i am infantry, an army sniper, Navy EOD I have been to a half dozen diffrent shooting schools and have been in every armed conflict/peace keeping mission since somalia and that broad general comment about the military being trigger happy was completely outta line & highly offensive. :x
 

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Also that is the purpose of a selectfire weapon, so when u go hot u chose if u want auto or semi or 3 round burst. I think there are valid arguments 4 both. Me personally i would rather have a select fire, semi/3rnd burst. If I am going to a Patrol rifle I am confident that I can send enough lead down range(&fast enough) w/ 3 round burst for whatever the situation dictates. I mean its worked well for me so far, i am alive and still breathing. the key to successful auto fire engagment is training, training, and more training & by succesful I mean no unecessary civilian Casualties and the bad people down and out.
 
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marlboroughpd @ Tue 07 Dec said:
Would you like to join the Military and use some full auto weapons, they are trigger happy. I have never played GTA but my friends are obsessed with it. I think that game sucks.
Why don't you join the military and find out if they are trigger happy. That liberal talk does not work on this site. You apparently watch the Action Channel to gain knowledge. Join the Army or USMC and find out that actually a soldier learns how important it is to conserve every round. It sucks when you're runinng close to empty.
Also, leave your daddy stories for your kids. Your w/ the big boys(&girls) here.
 

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i am only saying trigger happy is bad in LE. could get you in a lot of trouble with the law. i love the trigger happy soldiers in Iraq killing the unarmed insurgents they get rid of a lot of future problems. but when you bring up ammo deficiency on your person, you are right every round counts. that is what i am trying to say with Police Assault Rifles, they dont have unlimited supply of ammo so semi-auto is ideal. no you guys try and say full auto is the best its nice having that option. it is nice having that option but what i am saying that the chances of needing it are minimal to none. we all got our opinion about what is better, you guys disagree with me but if I was a PO, I would feel comfortable having a semi-auto rifle.
 

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marlboroughpd @ Thu 09 Dec said:
i am only saying trigger happy is bad in LE. could get you in a lot of trouble with the law. i love the trigger happy soldiers in Iraq killing the unarmed insurgents they get rid of a lot of future problems.
Trigger happy is always bad. Judging by ur responses u sound like ur in your early twenties or late teens and I take it that u have never been involved in any conflict or made the sacrificies that we make every damn day. I also will venture to say that u have never been surrounded by a group of people who's only dedication and motivation is to kill as many "infidels" as possible. No regards for civilians, politics, their own life or the life of the idiot next to them. This is a war to the likes of which we have never seen b4 in the entire history of U.S. warfare. I also assume that u have never seen a body that is boobytrapped. There is no such thing as an unarmed insurgents over here. the second i assume that the unarmed insurgent that is surrendering to me with both arms up is truely unarmed is when he detonates his body bomb and my daughters are growing up w/o a father. I know this because i have seen it happen, now i when i come home and explain to some little boy why his dad won't be there when he starts school, gets married etc etc. You have no clue what we are doing or sacrificing, so be4 u label some1, or a group of people as trigger happy get ur facts straight, if u want to attempt to understand what I am saying then pick up a weapon and stand a post. Until that day comes then i suggest u watch what u say to ur country's vets... all of them from WW I to present.
 
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