Seems like too much force | MassCops

Seems like too much force

Discussion in 'Law Enforcement Articles' started by res2244, May 26, 2020.

  1. res2244

    res2244 MassCops Member

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  2. RodneyFarva

    RodneyFarva Get off my lawn!

    Bro! those guys are fucked bro!
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  3. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    Improperly applied force. Don't know the beginning of this encounter, only the end. Kneel on someone's neck long enough, bad things will happen.

    Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
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  4. mpd61

    mpd61 Retired Fed, Active Special

    18 USC 242...............................
    Know it, understand it, fear it. It was made for screw ups like this.
    Meet the U.S. Attorney
  5. PG1911

    PG1911 Back Out in the Sticks

    I was in the academy right after the Eric Garner incident. I don't know how many times the DT instructor hammered this as what not to do.

    They could charge these guys with involuntary manslaughter. But they'll get charged with murder for political reasons, get acquitted because the prosecution won't be able to prove malice, and Minneapolis will riot.
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
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  6. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    Unfortunately, you are correct.
  7. res2244

    res2244 MassCops Member

    This technique is a no no in BJJ but seems more Krav Maga
  8. zm88

    zm88 MassCops Member

    I don’t know if it was lack of training, or the adrenaline but these guys are fucked. Shit happens, usually if you catch it in time you can correct it, like the knee on the neck, but that clearly didn’t happen here.
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  9. Joel98

    Joel98 MassCops Member

  10. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    From Cutting Edge Training, their commentary on the video:

    According to the media reports, Minneapolis police officers encountered a black male adult sitting in his car who was suspected of being under the influence of a controlled substance. Officers attempted to arrest him and he reportedly physically resisted arrest. No force tools were used before taking him to the ground and handcuffing him. For approximately 8 minutes, an officer, hand in his pant's pocket, knelt on the subject's neck while the prisoner repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. An ambulance arrived, showing officers had earlier requested EMS response. By the time the gurney arrived, the subject was unresponsive. The officer removed his knee from the subject's neck, then roughly yanked and dragged him over to be put on the gurney. The suspect died in police custody.

    Times have changed. It is past time to change with the times.

    Without seeing the autopsy or toxicology report, all we can do is speculate as to the cause of death. What we can be pretty much assured about is the man was not "suffocated" by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck. The subject was able to repeatedly speak, therefore his trachea was not occluded.

    Drugs plus physical exertion during an arrest often points to excited delirium and sudden death absent injuries pointing to a different conclusion. First described in 1849 by Dr. Luther Bell as "Bell's Mania," he observed, among other symptoms, "The course of the illness is from three to six weeks, with a fatal termination in a large percentage of cases, apparently from cardio-vascular failure due to overactivity."

    While it is not likely this or other officers "killed" this man, was there a better way to address this arrest that might have better served the public interest?

    In the 1970s and 80s, when the public's drug use changed, LE encountered sudden in-custody deaths. The deaths of suspects during forceful arrests were wrongly attributed during various phases to the carotid restraint, OC spray, TASERs, and positional asphyxia. Excited delirium, the latest understanding that began with Dr. Bell's description, is now understood by those who seek understanding of the cause of death of those who are mentally ill and/or under the influence of drugs who physically resist arrest beyond a body's physical limits and die, yet have no obvious cause of death at autopsy.

    Like that seen in the death of Eric Garner in New York, this individual complained repeatedly that he couldn't breathe. In the past, officer were trained, "If he can talk, he can breathe." THAT IS NOT TRUE.

    To breathe requires the body to perform two tasks, to breathe in and out deeply enough (inspiration and exhalation) to achieve sufficient gas exchange within the lungs to keep the body's cells supplied with oxygen to support life. Through very shallow breaths, humans can push enough air through their larynx (or voicebox) to speak without achieving even minimal gas exchange.

    CURRENT DOCTRINE: If a subject says, "I can't breathe," interpret that to mean, "I'm dying." The individual may not have the mental capacity or capability to discern they are having a heart attack or respiratory failure. This is a medical emergency. If it is safe, radio for emergency medical response. If the subject is unrestrained and still physically resisting, quickly handcuff him/her. Then roll the subject into a either seated position or a rescue position (on his side). Monitor closely and prepare to initiate CPR.

    As soon as a subject is cuffed, remove all body weight from the core of his torso and neck/head. The appearance of the Minneapolis officer who restrained the suspect in the video presented a very difficult to defend perceived of the continuing need to restrain the subject: the officer's hand was casually in his pocket for much of the video, his face was relaxed until bystanders appeared to be approaching too closely. This will be portrayed as callous, deliberate indifference to the man's life and safety. When facing a District Attorney investigator during a police-involved death investigation, and later a jury (criminal or civil), imagine the difficulty in convincing jurors that there was little effect on the outcome of the subject's death from body weight applied to their torso or neck. While that may be the fact, people want simple answers to complex problems. The public, jurors, district attorneys, US attorneys, and many police administrators often apply the belief that " the last one who touched the deceased likely killed him."

    Body weight to any area of the body during an actively resisting arrest is necessary to control the subject to handcuff him. Following handcuffing, body weight should be immediately removed from the neck, spine (from top of the spine to mid-back) area of the subject. If he
    continues struggling/kicking/biting, body weight can be applied to the periphery of his body and limbs: his upper arms, shoulders, and buttocks, lessening the appearance of interfering with his breathing. If he is slamming or grinding his head or face into the ground, protect him by cradling it in your hands.

    The suggestions in this post are often seen, correctly, as preventing the appearance of misconduct and deliberate indifference than rather preventing actual misconduct. That is very true. And also immaterial to your continuing in your career or possibly avoiding criminal indictment. Those who protest that appearances should not dictate police methods have likely not been forced to defend their actions in a politically-charged environment where incendiary comments are readily believed by many who have been persuaded by emotion rather than by fact.

    Change is tough. Change is constant. The results of failing to change is a cliche of history. Since the late 1990s, officers have been urged to put body weight on a resisting suspect only until the suspect is cuffed, and only peripherally if he remains violent or attempts to harm himself. These officers in Minneapolis, the one kneeling on the man's neck as well as the officer who failed to intervene and tell him to get off the suspect's neck, will like experience the effects of failing to change. They already are.
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  11. zm88

    zm88 MassCops Member

    Not so much judging, but every situation is a learning opportunity.
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  12. RodneyFarva

    RodneyFarva Get off my lawn!

    Does not apply to a party that is cuffed up already. Its one thing if you are on the side of the road rolling around with the guy, hell, you even can kill a unarmed suspect if you are in a knock down drag out fight and he starts to get the best of you (IE knock you out) This is a though one.


    Choke Hold: Deadly force option. Defined as applying direct pressure on a person’s trachea or airway (front of the neck), blocking or obstructing the airway (04/16/12)

    Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)

    Conscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)

    Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)


    1. The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting. (04/16/12)
    2. The Unconscious Neck Restraint shall only be applied in the following circumstances: (04/16/12)
      1. On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression, or;
      2. For life saving purposes, or;
      3. On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective.
    3. Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)
    4. After Care Guidelines (04/16/12)
      1. After a neck restraint or choke hold has been used on a subject, sworn MPD employees shall keep them under close observation until they are released to medical or other law enforcement personnel.
      2. An officer who has used a neck restraint or choke hold shall inform individuals accepting custody of the subject, that the technique was used on the subject.
  13. CCCSD

    CCCSD MassCops Member

    Ahhhhh.....ANOTHER summer of attacks against Cops. We just don’t fucking LEARN.
  14. LGriffin

    LGriffin Always Watching

    This will persist through November, no matter how many Birthday parades, dance videos and PR challenges you do.
    DNC was hoping their race baiting would take off with the Georgia “jogger” but they hit the jackpot here. Grab your cheeks! Even Hannity was fluffing up an ignorant “hands up” Anti-LE dope on his show ...

    “You wouldn’t think to call all accountants thieves because one stole from their client. You would never label all teachers rapists for the actions of one. You have respect for doctors even though their medical mistakes account for 250,000 deaths a year and then there is the NFL. We don’t think they are all criminals because a few are so why doesn’t that logic apply to law enforcement? Why can’t you see that the vast majority of the 800,000+ men & women that wear the badge are some of the best among us. Every action they take is filmed and scrutinized like no other profession and the least they deserve is the same respect & common sense you show every other profession. To do otherwise shows ignorance, discrimination and hate.”
    - Travis Yates, Author & Trainer,
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  15. res2244

    res2244 MassCops Member

    Very well said quote. I know im going to be called a sellout based on the choice of becoming a LEO because I don’t agree with the politics of “thinking” like my race should. The whole notion of “communities of (insert any race here)” is just implicit segregation on its own. There’s only one community, HUMANS. Thought isn’t monolithic. It won’t stop me from making my sworn oath to the commonwealth no matter how volatile these race and identity politics are right now or will be
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  16. JR90

    JR90 MassCops Member

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  17. AB7

    AB7 MassCops Member

    I watched the whole video and I can’t find any reason to justify why the officer would kneel on the guys neck after he was cuffed.
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  18. Sooty

    Sooty Administrator

    Remember these two also worked at the same bar... so they would've known each other.
    PG1911 likes this.
  19. HistoryHound

    HistoryHound Supporting Member

    I wonder if that's part of the "other evidence" that they're talking about.
    Sooty likes this.
  20. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    I missed that, link to the info? Also some crazy conspiracy theories going on about the AutoZone first guess would be Antifa, but who knows anymore.
  21. Joel98

    Joel98 MassCops Member

    The officer and Floyd worked at the same bar?
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  22. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

  23. USAF286

    USAF286 MassCops Member

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  24. LGriffin

    LGriffin Always Watching

    I didn’t see anything specific to his behavior while working the club. The article merely stated that Chauvin worked outside while Floyd worked inside and she wasn’t sure whether they knew each other.
    What else did she allege?
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
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  25. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

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