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I don't think you actually read through any of the posts, because that's the exact point we have both been trying to make.

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No no 42, Triple7 is of the same mindset as we are. He actually came to one of my classes and learned a bunch. Funniest part was "if I'm stuck in a triangle choke, I'd punch them in the nuts."

Me: "Ok. Let's try your theory."
Him: "Shit, I can't punch your nuts from this angle.... Tappppp!"

Triple7, I appreciate your vote of confidence. Yeah, both of those wouldn't work on me. Those are super easy to escape, and leave the person applying same open for leg attacks. Knee bars and heel hooks.
 

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I don't think you actually read through any of the posts, because that's the exact point we have both been trying to make.

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Yes.. I've read the posts. It was directed at the person who was taking about liability and sticking with only department trained tactics. Patr8726 or something like that. Seeking your own training, or even better, with a group of guys and gals from your agency is all good. It's all about defending yourself and others.

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Discussion Starter #23
No no 42, Triple7 is of the same mindset as we are. He actually came to one of my classes and learned a bunch. Funniest part was "if I'm stuck in a triangle choke, I'd punch them in the nuts."

Me: "Ok. Let's try your theory."
Him: "Shit, I can't punch your nuts from this angle.... Tappppp!"

Triple7, I appreciate your vote of confidence. Yeah, both of those wouldn't work on me. Those are super easy to escape, and leave the person applying same open for leg attacks. Knee bars and heel hooks.
Ha! Now I'M the one not fully reading the post lol. Triple 7 I retract my comment ;)

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The problem with your argument is that unless you work for some insane agency like NYPD that has a short list of authorized techniques, there IS no policy for like 99% of agencies out there. There is only so much bleed over in techniques. At some point almost any technique you have seen in any martial arts class has been taught in DT. At least in my state, which has one state certified DT Instructor curriculum. New techniques are explored, taught and practiced daily. We teach a few basic techniques to Academy classes, but that is by no means all they're allowed to do. We also have additional training for anyone in the Academy where we go over anything that works.

At least where I work there is no list of "approved" techniques. If you can do a level 1 wristy twisty, you can do any technique that falls within that level of force as long as it is a reasonable level of force for the situation.

There are also differences between CONTROL techniques and self defense. If you are being physically assaulted (instead of someone being merely non compliant or actively resistant) the world of techniques has just opened up for you. If you are wrestling with a suspect who is assaulting you and rolling around on the ground, you absolutely can (and should) be able to articulate that you were in fear for your life. How many punches to the face does it take to knock someone out? If the suspect is trying to grab equipment off your belt, you ARE in a fight for your life and can use whatever level of force you deem reasonable to defend yourself and end the threat.

Most modern agencies don't even have a use of force continuum anymore. Instead most have gone to a single paragraph that states an officer will use whatever force is reasonable and necessary to affect the lawful purpose intended. Modern law enforcement training has realized that not all situations fit nicely into a little box and have stopped opening themselves up to lawsuits by over writing their policies. As long as the force used is reasonable, you are covered. I have never even heard of a department that has a list of "authorized" techniques in their policy. That's madness lol.

The only technique that is questionable in my state is the LVNR. Some departments consider it a level 1 use of force, while others consider it higher. However we still teach a variety of blood chokes... Not because you are supposed to just jump on someone and choke them out, but because lethal force is lethal force. If you are justified in shooting someone you can use any technique or weapon available, including hitting them with your car, using a firearm or in the immortal words of one of my Academy instructors (and Deputy Prosecutor)... "If you can shoot a suspect, you can beat them to death with a 9 iron!"
Funny you mentioned NYPD, because the Eric Garner case was brought up earlier. That agency prohibits all chokeholds, but we just got a lesson here on how a much better choking system could have been used that wouldn't have looked as bad, which helps how exactly? My point is to know your agency policy, because every agency has something different written down. Some change often, others never get updated or don't make sense, but if you don't know them cold when using & documenting force, you're committing yourself to a lot more than you realize.

Detailed policy also doesn't open an agency up to lawsuits. The language used in it lays out the boundaries of what they'll take responsibility for and what they won't. The anecdote about the prosecutor is great for criminal cases against officers, but prosecutors have little to do with torts, except by default in states where legally justified = civilly protected.
 

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42 nails my point.

Learn to fight, because if you don't, when you really need to... You'll lose and die.

Amazing how everything has turned into a litigious scare. It's almost as if the department would RATHER you die or become seriously injured, than have to deal with any legal repercussions. Man, this job has changed.

And again, I'm not talking about using a flying triangle to make an arrest, I'm talking about using this knowledge to save your life.
I don't think it's that malicious. Agencies shell out a lot in lawsuits, settlements & litigation. If they're really married to a certain policy, they'll be willing to pay to defend against constant challenges. Insurance underwriters for the agency have a lot to do with this as well, what they're willing to cover or not. That's why you see things like no pursuit policies, not authorizing off duty carry, etc. It comes down to premiums, and no one thinks or cares enough about the end result for an officer to navigate under stress on their back.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I don't think it's that malicious. Agencies shell out a lot in lawsuits, settlements & litigation. If they're really married to a certain policy, they'll be willing to pay to defend against constant challenges. Insurance underwriters for the agency have a lot to do with this as well, what they're willing to cover or not. That's why you see things like no pursuit policies, not authorizing off duty carry, etc. It comes down to premiums, and no one thinks or cares enough about the end result for an officer to navigate under stress on their back.
Many departments were shelling out settlement money on perfectly legitimate uses of force, because their policy was written in an overtly complicated or restrictive manner. No policy can take into account all of the possible scenarios encountered by our brothers and sisters in blue. Over the years it has become obvious that it was the way a policy was written that led to so many use of force lawsuits or complaints. Some of the old school policies would be pages and pages long and basically said if suspect a does b then officer c should do D. They failed to account for some of the insanity out there so when an officer would come across something and handled it in a manner that was perfectly legal and justified, he or she could still be violating policy. This actually wasn't the intention of the policy makers and they found themselves shelling out because after all... Their officer violated policy.

The new push for use of force policies (at least in my state) is to basically say the officer will use whatever level of force deemed reasonable and then evaluates each use of force in a case by case bases. It has cut down having to shell out needlessly on lawsuits, because MOST of the time, uses of force ARE completely reasonable. If they fall outside those boundaries, there are issues lol

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Many departments were shelling out settlement money on perfectly legitimate uses of force, because their policy was written in an overtly complicated or restrictive manner. No policy can take into account all of the possible scenarios encountered by our brothers and sisters in blue. Over the years it has become obvious that it was the way a policy was written that led to so many use of force lawsuits or complaints. Some of the old school policies would be pages and pages long and basically said if suspect a does b then officer c should do D. They failed to account for some of the insanity out there so when an officer would come across something and handled it in a manner that was perfectly legal and justified, he or she could still be violating policy. This actually wasn't the intention of the policy makers and they found themselves shelling out because after all... Their officer violated policy.

The new push for use of force policies (at least in my state) is to basically say the officer will use whatever level of force deemed reasonable and then evaluates each use of force in a case by case bases. It has cut down having to shell out needlessly on lawsuits, because MOST of the time, uses of force ARE completely reasonable. If they fall outside those boundaries, there are issues lol

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That's cool but I'm sure it'll take MA 20 years to catch up to current trends as we always seem to be living in yesteryear when it comes to policing here.
 

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Here we have a dept full of cops who are fighters, and many have their own schools. I study Judo and grappling, good stuff. I was also thinking about checking the Gracie L.E stuff, its looks like good training.

Stay safe
 
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