If you're a fan of BJJ (and I am since it's primarily what I practice outside of work), you will enjoy my upcoming post specifically about BJJ and law enforcement!Disagree with the article.
1. Krav - nope. Dirty karate, that's about it. I'd fight anyone who does Krav with the same amount of experience as I have with BJJ.
2. BJJ - Absolutely. Because as the article states, cops fighting on the ground are usually fighting for their life. Wouldn't it make sense to ensure you know how to handle yourself there?
3. MMA - makes sense, as it's a mixture of Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu.
4. Judo - Not known as the gentle art, article is wrong. Jiu Jitsu translates in Portuguese as "the gentle art." Judo is exceptional when trying to take someone down, however being that close puts you obviously in striking range. Before someone starts throwing punches it could be used very successfully. Nothing like getting tossed ass over tea kettle to get disoriented super fast.
Cowboy the broken record, I know. How are those two cops from Framingham recovering? The two who got tossed around on video by someone who said to them after more cops arrived and finally hooked him, "you fucks need to learn jiu Jitsu."
Kid in Milford triangle choked a cop out cold, I think it was last year? Bet their DT hasn't changed...
I'm just waiting for a news article to come out with a story about a cop who got his arm broken by someone who knew what he was doing, and decided he didn't want to get arrested.
Good to hear you train in that. Between the throws and ground work, I'm sure you can handle yourself if caught off guard and taken to the dirt.I regularly practice Judo and have done many other arts including BJJ, Kickboxing etc., Judo is "The Gentle Way" it was developed by Kano Jigoro to be a modern derivative from Jujutsu without the lethal killing techniques. I'd say BJJ and Judo along with a good striking art like Muay Thai, boxing or such is a great combination for a cop to learn.
After transferring to MA from out of state, I continue to be horrified by the lack of department mandated training. Specifically with DT and firearms. I'm sure it's not just in MA.. But we must seek out our own training in order to have any type of advantage. I've seen a huge over-reliance on the Taser.. Plenty of people in this profession are useless without the items on their duty belt.Disagree with the article.
1. Krav - nope. Dirty karate, that's about it. I'd fight anyone who does Krav with the same amount of experience as I have with BJJ.
2. BJJ - Absolutely. Because as the article states, cops fighting on the ground are usually fighting for their life. Wouldn't it make sense to ensure you know how to handle yourself there?
3. MMA - makes sense, as it's a mixture of Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu.
4. Judo - Not known as the gentle art, article is wrong. Jiu Jitsu translates in Portuguese as "the gentle art." Judo is exceptional when trying to take someone down, however being that close puts you obviously in striking range. Before someone starts throwing punches it could be used very successfully. Nothing like getting tossed ass over tea kettle to get disoriented super fast.
Cowboy the broken record, I know. How are those two cops from Framingham recovering? The two who got tossed around on video by someone who said to them after more cops arrived and finally hooked him, "you fucks need to learn jiu Jitsu."
Kid in Milford triangle choked a cop out cold, I think it was last year? Bet their DT hasn't changed...
I'm just waiting for a news article to come out with a story about a cop who got his arm broken by someone who knew what he was doing, and decided he didn't want to get arrested.
Couldn't agree more bro. It isn't just MA. It is a problem EVERYWHERE. We get 8 hours a YEAR to train guys on DT. And that time is shared with Taser. It's one of the reasons I became an instructor in the first place. I realized the department didn't care about me or any of my coworkers. They just wanted to be able to check the liability box that says you have been trained and anything you do wrong or even the appearance of wrong to the uninformed public is ALL on you.After transferring to MA from out of state, I continue to be horrified by the lack of department mandated training. Specifically with DT and firearms. I'm sure it's not just in MA.. But we must seek out our own training in order to have any type of advantage. I've seen a huge over-reliance on the Taser.. Plenty of people in this profession are useless without the items on their duty belt.
It's just plain sad that's municipalities don't give a shit about their cops and won't spend money for training for this stuff.
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At least you showed up to class...After transferring to MA from out of state, I continue to be horrified by the lack of department mandated training. Specifically with DT and firearms. I'm sure it's not just in MA.. But we must seek out our own training in order to have any type of advantage. I've seen a huge over-reliance on the Taser.. Plenty of people in this profession are useless without the items on their duty belt.
It's just plain sad that's municipalities don't give a shit about their cops and won't spend money for training for this stuff.
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Yep! That's another example of part of the problem. The neck crank you brought up IS taught. It's something we teach for exactly that kind of situation with a suspect who's being non compliant. The problem is how many times had they practiced that particular move? A half dozen times during in service over the years? Without regular practice it just gets lost in the soup in your head and people end up going all waterboy on someone instead of using an actual focused technique. Hell I do this stuff for fun and after breaks in training, I still find myself relearning stuff. Lol...a few months ago I was learning this really sweet technique that I really loved. It wasn't until I had been practicing it for like an hour that I realized I had seen it before. I had learned it, forgot it and learned it again... twice! I guess that's what happens when you try to cram 10 gallons of crap in a 5 gallon bag!At least you showed up to class...I offered another one and literally ZERO people showed interest.
42, you're ok in my book. Glad you see the same things I do with the staggering lack of DT training in LE. I'm not in LE, but I see the holes all the time. They're also all over YouTube. Krav still sucks tho.
Take the Eric Garner case in NY. Everyone knows what a rear naked choke looks like, but if he used a loop choke with his T-shirt, might have been able to get by the untrained eye. Maybe hip in since he had back mount, you know how much pressure that is on your lumbar spine. How about a solid neck crank instead, right across the face, under the nose?
People don't understand how much that shit hurts. Most importantly, cops don't understand. A hip in, neck crank will get ANYONE compliant epically faster than someone raining fists.
I'm on the mats 5 days a week. I can't get enough.
Do you wear a white shirt and gold by chance?I've seen far more officers get hemmed up for going outside the box in uses of force then I have ever seen killed in the line of duty when groundfighting a ninja warrior. Please don't think I'm writing it off as impossible, but you need to remember the environment that we work in to pay our bills. There's a lot more going on than meets the eye.
Killed is over and done with. A suit can last forever. Just saying.Do you wear a white shirt and gold by chance?
Seriously though I get what you are saying but I would rather be sued instead of being killed.
This! The goal of learning ground fighting for law enforcement is so you can get OUT of the fight and transition to another tool. A fight on the ground with an opponent who is looking to hurt or kill you is a life and death situation. Law enforcement brings weapons into the fight that can be used against them. It is an incredibly dangerous situation and if nothing else, the officer needs to know how to defend against such techniques or at least hold on until help can arrive. Not adding ground work into a DT program is negligent. Though again... There ARE problems that need to be considered when conducting training. Mostly I think we as DT instructors tend to emphasize the wrong things. You aren't training guys to be MMA fighters or to roll around looking for that sweet armbar. You're teaching them to survive and disengage and to take people into custody with the LEAST amount of force necessary.Yeah, terrible idea to make yourself better, and more proficient at something that could save your life. Make sure you don't go to the range on your spare time either...
Look, I bring up BJJ for a reason. You aren't going to be employing arm bars, or heel hooks, or calf slicers when fighting someone on the street. Kind of goes without saying... That's where you'd get jammed up with IA, and nobody is suggesting doing something that would get anyone jammed up. What you WILL do, is know how to escape mount, escape back control, learn how to use your hips to end up in a safer and more dominant position, and be able to control their body. Without raining punches in view of the camera.
And there's no BI process to learn BJJ... This is America, ya know.
Well that's exactly it. Going to the range on your spare time and practicing authorized techniques is obviously not a problem. But going to some shooting school and learning tactics that fly in the face of your agency policy or authorized training is the same can of worms, especially when something goes wrong. Read some recent fed court decisions on qualified immunity, respondeat superior, etc. The agency is only liable in 42 USC 1983 actions for conduct of the LEO that's within agency policy. Do something outside that, then it's 100% on the officer, he's disavowed. Same exact thing goes for your suggested pain compliance techniques...if my agency policy prohibits choking, when I wrap someone up in the suggested loop choke, it's not just a chance of liability, it's a guarantee that I have to answer for that on my own. No agency lawyer, no settlement by the admin. That's a judgement against my bank account, my house, my assets personally, with my own attorney paid for out of my pocket to defend against it. Even winning a case, you're still losing a lot.Yeah, terrible idea to make yourself better, and more proficient at something that could save your life. Make sure you don't go to the range on your spare time either...
Look, I bring up BJJ for a reason. You aren't going to be employing arm bars, or heel hooks, or calf slicers when fighting someone on the street. Kind of goes without saying... That's where you'd get jammed up with IA, and nobody is suggesting doing something that would get anyone jammed up. What you WILL do, is know how to escape mount, escape back control, learn how to use your hips to end up in a safer and more dominant position, and be able to control their body. Without raining punches in view of the camera.
And there's no BI process to learn BJJ... This is America, ya know.
I absolutely agree with you. Where our paths split is the knowledge base of the teachers. Tell students to hound their agency brass for a good groundfighter to teach some solid techniques? Absolutely. Suggest to rookies or future applicants to dive headfirst into waters they have no idea how to navigate? Absolutely not. Anything an LEO does in the field that they can't effectively bring to bear in court is at best wasted time, at worst what I described above.Not adding ground work into a DT program is negligent.
The problem with your argument is that unless you work for some insane agency like NYPD that has a short list of authorized techniques, there IS no policy for like 99% of agencies out there. There is only so much bleed over in techniques. At some point almost any technique you have seen in any martial arts class has been taught in DT. At least in my state, which has one state certified DT Instructor curriculum. New techniques are explored, taught and practiced daily. We teach a few basic techniques to Academy classes, but that is by no means all they're allowed to do. We also have additional training for anyone in the Academy where we go over anything that works.Well that's exactly it. Going to the range on your spare time and practicing authorized techniques is obviously not a problem. But going to some shooting school and learning tactics that fly in the face of your agency policy or authorized training is the same can of worms, especially when something goes wrong. Read some recent fed court decisions on qualified immunity, respondeat superior, etc. The agency is only liable in 42 USC 1983 actions for conduct of the LEO that's within agency policy. Do something outside that, then it's 100% on the officer, he's disavowed. Same exact thing goes for your suggested pain compliance techniques...if my agency policy prohibits choking, when I wrap someone up in the suggested loop choke, it's not just a chance of liability, it's a guarantee that I have to answer for that on my own. No agency lawyer, no settlement by the admin. That's a judgement against my bank account, my house, my assets personally, with my own attorney paid for out of my pocket to defend against it. Even winning a case, you're still losing a lot.
What you, the dojo fighter, see as life and death, is not what the courts and various policies interpret as life and death. Most are based on Graham factors, but moreso with the former than the latter. LEO's aren't getting in one struggle a career, many will use force multiple times a shift. We should train until this stuff is instinct right? So in a month, how many instances where an officer reacts as trained outside of policy will be uncovered? What you're suggesting is gambling every day when you go to work.
I'm also aware that there's no BI needed to teach any of this stuff. That was the point that you missed: there are things that don't necessarily make you a bad person, that will absolutely prevent a jury from ever hearing your testimony in court. LE agencies generally weed out these integrity issues in BI's to make sure an LEO's testimony is admissible in court. So an LE trainer is a known entity, while with a private instructor it's Russian Roulette when it comes to Brady issues.
I don't think you actually read through any of the posts, because that's the exact point we have both been trying to make.The whole purpose of police training in ground fighting is to avoid getting severely injured or choked out and killed. We are not fighting in the octagon. Obviously the purpose of training in this stuff would be to to to defend yourself and hopefully transition to an approved, liberal, and media approved use of force option to effect an arrest.
Go ahead and try that arm bar take down or rear wrist lock on Pvt Cowboy.... Let me know how that works out for ya...
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