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Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
Absolutely, warnings all the way, no one will ever bring in another penny.
Police Detail News (merged Threads)
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Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
Finished my letter. Before I send it how about some constructive review and criticism from the members here.
Dear Senator ,
Hello Sir/Madam, I would like to take a few moments of your time and express my deep concerns in regards to the newly proposed Transportation Reform bill that would affect Police Details. As citizen of the Commonwealth and as a Special Police Officer I am very worried about the negative consequences that will arise if this or any bills like it were to pass. Getting to the point I would like to direct your attention to some misconceptions, facts and some personal thoughts that I believe you should be made aware of concerning this issue.
First off I would like to take look at some common misconceptions that are often made when comparing the use of Civilian Flagman vs. uniformed Police Officers. As I am sure you are aware Massachusetts is the only state in the union that does not use Civilian Flagmen. Because of this many both in the public and private sector automatically assume that the use of flagman must be cheaper and will save taxpayers a substantial amount of money. However when reading currant articles in Boston based news media it is suggested the use of police details only cost the state a mere $5 million a year. However this is a misconception. What the articles as well as the studies failed to mention is that the overwhelming majority of details are paid by the contractor doing the work. Many of the Commonwealth's municipalities take a percentage of the detail rate and place it in local budgets. By doing this taxpayers actually save money. Another cost misconception one must realize is by hiring private firms there is no guarantee that their rates will not go up. In an economy that is uncertain the cost of service is going up, especially in the private sector. While it may now only cost $25-$30 dollars per hour for a flagman, in the next five to ten years it may cost as much, if not more than using a police officer.
Now that I have touched upon some common misconceptions of cost benefits to the use of flagman, I would like to direct your attention to some facts that are very beneficial in regards of use of Police Officers. It should be obvious but the use of Police Officers at work sites significantly enhances public safety. Police Officers, unlike Civilian Flagmen are trained First Responders, have powers of arrest, prevent and deter crime, are less of a liability, and are trained in both criminal and motor vehicle law. Civilian Flagmen provide none of these essential services. I personally know of cases where fellow officers have provided extraordinary services while on a road detail. They have made stolen vehicle arrests, DUI Arrests, rendered Medical aid, and have foiled crimes about to take place. I have read several newspaper articles just this year that support this. Not surprisingly I never saw one about flagmen
In addition to the facts above let me touch upon some personal thoughts about the necessity to keep Police details. You see I, and a lot of fellow officers feel "we" need details. Despite what some may say Police Officers in the Commonwealth find it sometimes hard to make ends meet financially on straight pay salary alone. I know many officers that also work another job in addition to being a full time officer. For Special Police Officers like me who work part time and usually voluntarily, details are extremely important. If it was not for details many of us could not continue to provide our service. A portion of my own detail pay goes straight toward uniform, equipment maintenance, and in-service training. Many of us are not in this profession to make money. We are in it because we love what we do. Serving our community is a very rewarding and gratifying experience and by working road jobs it helps make our service possible.
In closing I hope a few of the things I have touched upon will heighten your awareness as to why Road Detail jobs should, and need to remain worked by Uniformed Police Officers. I hope by reading this you will share some of my concerns with some of your fellow colleagues, to help make the right decision by allowing the continuance of Police Officers over the use of Civilian Flagmen
Thank you for your time
Finished my letter. Before I send it how about some constructive review and criticism from the members here.
March 30, 2008
Dear Senator ,
Hello Sir/Madam, I would like to take a few moments of your time and express my deep concerns in regards to the newly proposed Transportation Reform bill that would affect Police Details. As citizen of the Commonwealth and as a Special Police Officer I am very worried about the negative consequences that will arise if this or any bills like it were to pass. Getting to the point I would like to direct your attention to some misconceptions, facts and some personal thoughts that I believe you should be made aware of concerning this issue.
First off I would like to take look at some common misconceptions that are often made when comparing the use of Civilian Flagman vs. uniformed Police Officers. As I am sure you are aware Massachusetts is the only state in the union that does not use Civilian Flagmen. Because of this many both in the public and private sector automatically assume that the use of flagman must be cheaper and will save taxpayers a substantial amount of money. However when reading currant articles in Boston based news media it is suggested the use of police details only cost the state a mere $5 million a year. However this is a misconception. What the articles as well as the studies failed to mention is that the overwhelming majority of details are paid by the contractor doing the work. Many of the Commonwealth's municipalities take a percentage of the detail rate and place it in local budgets. By doing this taxpayers actually save money. Another cost misconception one must realize is by hiring private firms there is no guarantee that their rates will not go up. In an economy that is uncertain the cost of service is going up, especially in the private sector. While it may now only cost $25-$30 dollars per hour for a flagman, in the next five to ten years it may cost as much, if not more than using a police officer.
Now that I have touched upon some common misconceptions of cost benefits to the use of flagman, I would like to direct your attention to some facts that are very beneficial in regards of use of Police Officers. It should be obvious but the use of Police Officers at work sites significantly enhances public safety. Police Officers, unlike Civilian Flagmen are trained First Responders, have powers of arrest, prevent and deter crime, are less of a liability, and are trained in both criminal and motor vehicle law. Civilian Flagmen provide none of these essential services. I personally know of cases where fellow officers have provided extraordinary services while on a road detail. They have made stolen vehicle arrests, DUI Arrests, rendered Medical aid, and have foiled crimes about to take place. I have read several newspaper articles just this year that support this. Not surprisingly I never saw one about flagmen
In addition to the facts above let me touch upon some personal thoughts about the necessity to keep Police details. You see I, and a lot of fellow officers feel "we" need details. Despite what some may say Police Officers in the Commonwealth find it sometimes hard to make ends meet financially on straight pay salary alone. I know many officers that also work another job in addition to being a full time officer. For Special Police Officers like me who work part time and usually voluntarily, details are extremely important. If it was not for details many of us could not continue to provide our service. A portion of my own detail pay goes straight toward uniform, equipment maintenance, and in-service training. Many of us are not in this profession to make money. We are in it because we love what we do. Serving our community is a very rewarding and gratifying experience and by working road jobs it helps make our service possible.
In closing I hope a few of the things I have touched upon will heighten your awareness as to why Road Detail jobs should, and need to remain worked by Uniformed Police Officers. I hope by reading this you will share some of my concerns with some of your fellow colleagues, to help make the right decision by allowing the continuance of Police Officers over the use of Civilian Flagmen
Thank you for your time
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6,704 Posts
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
New Hampshire allowed flaggers in a while ago and it really sucks when your siting at home with no OT watching a retard steal your money on a road job.. Fight this all of the way because once you lose it you will never get it back. Some
saw that last year while riding the Kangamangus Hwy on the motorsickle. she was cute with a blond ponytail under her hardhat. of course i stopped because i'm a law abiding dude , but try that on a busy Mass street during morning rush hour and flagmen won't be getting too much love.
P,S. kudos to Plainville Special Officer David Rando, looking sharp !
New Hampshire allowed flaggers in a while ago and it really sucks when your siting at home with no OT watching a retard steal your money on a road job.. Fight this all of the way because once you lose it you will never get it back. Some
saw that last year while riding the Kangamangus Hwy on the motorsickle. she was cute with a blond ponytail under her hardhat. of course i stopped because i'm a law abiding dude , but try that on a busy Mass street during morning rush hour and flagmen won't be getting too much love.
P,S. kudos to Plainville Special Officer David Rando, looking sharp !
G
Guest
·Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
Good letter, but the rate for a unionized, prevailing wage flagman would be more like $40-50 per hour. You might also want to point out that police officers, whether full-time or special officers, don't cost anything in regards to health insurance, dental insurance, and other benefits that flagmen will no doubt command. Full time officers already have those benefits, and specials don't have them anyway.
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935 Posts
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
When this issue was hot a couple of years ago I talked with some laborers on a job that said the owner of their company was salivating at the prospect of flagmen in MA. They said that instead of having to pay cops, he could take a piece of the action by providing the guys himself. This is the same company where we fight with the workers for doing dangerous stuff in the road and trying to tell us to shut down traffic for long periods of time becuase its easier for them. If they were in charge of the traffic, I can imagine what would be going on.
When this issue was hot a couple of years ago I talked with some laborers on a job that said the owner of their company was salivating at the prospect of flagmen in MA. They said that instead of having to pay cops, he could take a piece of the action by providing the guys himself. This is the same company where we fight with the workers for doing dangerous stuff in the road and trying to tell us to shut down traffic for long periods of time becuase its easier for them. If they were in charge of the traffic, I can imagine what would be going on.
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3,564 Posts
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
So how come Massachusetts drivers won't stop for flagmen? Even after growing up in Mass I still don't understand, please enlighten me.
I don't get it, why do you guys think that drivers won't stop for flagmen there in Massachusetts? Most other states use flagmen, including here in California and flagmen work just fine. In fact, in some road construction zones they only use orange cones and they work ok too.
So how come Massachusetts drivers won't stop for flagmen? Even after growing up in Mass I still don't understand, please enlighten me.
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171 Posts
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
In other states, drivers learned when they got their license at 16, that they had to stop, and follow the direction of flag men. It's part of their life, and it's all they know and are used to. In Mass, they barely stop for police officers. A flag man would be something new that they are not accustomed to. They would be looked at as someone less than a school crossing guard, which most people only stop for because kids are involved, and the chance that a police officer might be in the area. Most of them will try passing a school bus with flashing red lights. When people are running late, which most people are now a days, they aren't going to let some civilian flag man delay them. Who are the flag men going to call for enforcement when drivers don't stop? What police officer is going to set up enforcement activities at these construction sites to ensure drivers are stopping and obeying flag men? With no traffic law enforcement in these construction areas, the problem will only grow worse. I do believe the politicians will see the light before they open Pandora's box. Surely, they're not that foolish.
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
Why don't we get Blackwater to take over the rest of our duties too! Then I can sleep at night knowing everyone else will make a living wage except us. I bust my ass on details. I hate the friggin things but need the money. People drive by and think it's so easy. I'm usually on my way to a Section 12 by the end of the day.
Why don't we get Blackwater to take over the rest of our duties too! Then I can sleep at night knowing everyone else will make a living wage except us. I bust my ass on details. I hate the friggin things but need the money. People drive by and think it's so easy. I'm usually on my way to a Section 12 by the end of the day.
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4,296 Posts
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
Dispatcher: "(Whatever) Police Department, this line's being recorded."
Flagman: "Yeah, there's a guy who blew through my setup, knocked over my cones, and nearly killed our workers here on Route (whatever)! It's like he just robbed a bank or something!"
Dispatcher: "What would you like us to do?"
Flagman: "Well, I got the plate number and can describe the car to you, but he's long gone by now."
Dispatcher: *CLICK*
Flagman: "Man, I'm gonna call my uncle (State Rep Whoever that owns the company) and tell him we need radios and ticket books."
Dispatcher: "(Whatever) Police Department, this line's being recorded."
Flagman: "Yeah, there's a guy who blew through my setup, knocked over my cones, and nearly killed our workers here on Route (whatever)! It's like he just robbed a bank or something!"
Dispatcher: "What would you like us to do?"
Flagman: "Well, I got the plate number and can describe the car to you, but he's long gone by now."
Dispatcher: *CLICK*
Flagman: "Man, I'm gonna call my uncle (State Rep Whoever that owns the company) and tell him we need radios and ticket books."
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
I also wish them luck in receiving permission to close down a roadway. Where I work, this can only be done after the detail officer develops an alternative traffic pattern (rerouting) that will not hinder public safety (police, fire, ems), proposes the plan to a supervisor (Sgt. or above), and the supervisor authorizes the request. It is only on rare occasions (almost never) that a supervisor will deny a detail officer's request to alter the traffic pattern. This is because the supervisor knows that the officer's primary concerns are public safety and flow of traffic. A flagger hired/employed by the construction company will have only one interest in mind, and that will be to do whatever said company wants in order to ensure that the company continues to hire/employ them. I can see this causing a heavy burden on us; we will have to visit these construction sites in order to correct the set up. Of course, if the plan ever passes, I'm sure most of us won't mind showing up at the site and requiring the company to spend an hour + moving equipment around and revamping their falty traffic pattern, all in the interest of public safety!
I also wish them luck in receiving permission to close down a roadway. Where I work, this can only be done after the detail officer develops an alternative traffic pattern (rerouting) that will not hinder public safety (police, fire, ems), proposes the plan to a supervisor (Sgt. or above), and the supervisor authorizes the request. It is only on rare occasions (almost never) that a supervisor will deny a detail officer's request to alter the traffic pattern. This is because the supervisor knows that the officer's primary concerns are public safety and flow of traffic. A flagger hired/employed by the construction company will have only one interest in mind, and that will be to do whatever said company wants in order to ensure that the company continues to hire/employ them. I can see this causing a heavy burden on us; we will have to visit these construction sites in order to correct the set up. Of course, if the plan ever passes, I'm sure most of us won't mind showing up at the site and requiring the company to spend an hour + moving equipment around and revamping their falty traffic pattern, all in the interest of public safety!
G
Guest
·Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
Besides the fact that motorists barely stop for the police, there is case law that a police officer must see a traffic offense to issue a citation. The decision stemmed from the Boston PD having their cadets write down the license numbers of cars who disregarded their traffic directing efforts (and there are a lot of them), then giving them to the police officer assigned to supervise them. The officer's citations were thrown out because he or another police officer didn't see the infractions.
So, besides being notoriously impatient and arrogant, MA motorists are under no legal obligation whatsoever to obey flagmen. A fact they will exploit to the Nth-degree.
You've been away from home for too long.
Besides the fact that motorists barely stop for the police, there is case law that a police officer must see a traffic offense to issue a citation. The decision stemmed from the Boston PD having their cadets write down the license numbers of cars who disregarded their traffic directing efforts (and there are a lot of them), then giving them to the police officer assigned to supervise them. The officer's citations were thrown out because he or another police officer didn't see the infractions.
So, besides being notoriously impatient and arrogant, MA motorists are under no legal obligation whatsoever to obey flagmen. A fact they will exploit to the Nth-degree.
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Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
No question I've been away from home for too long, I'm really looking forward to moving back in a few years.
We have the same law here, we too have to see a traffic offense to be able to write a ticket. Plus, we can't just mail it to the violater if we see the infraction off-duty, we have to be on-duty and stop them then and there. I do agree that Mass drivers are pretty crazy. Whenever I talk to folks out here who have traveled back there to the Boston area, they all say the same thing: They love the area but can't get over how crazy the drivers are.
We have quite a few drivers out here in the LA area who either never had a license or whose license is suspended. Also, the streets out here are much wider than back there so cars tend to travel much faster. However, I've never seen a problem with folks stopping for flagmen.. It's amazing the difference from state to state.
Paul,
I agree that folks probably wouldn't stop for flagmen in the first few months but eventually people would get used to it, especially after the first few major crashes with the attached publicity.
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why you guys want to keep details to supplement your base pay, I have a number of friends on the job back there who work them so I get it... I wish we had details out here but we don't. We just work overtime doing police work, which is better than standing at a construction site in the middle of winter!
If folks don't stop for flagmen and crossing guards, don't you think it would be easier to write someone a ticket for not stopping PRIOR to the crash instead of having to clean up the mess AFTER the crash? Besides, it would be great PC to stop all the dirtbags and look for stuff, not to mention all the motor cops whose primary focus is traffic enforcement. (if there aren't any laws against stopping for flagmen, then hopefully something will be written soon if they do get rid of traffic details.)
Whatever happens, I wish you guys luck. It sounds like it's gonna be an uphill battle.
Delta,You've been away from home for too long.
Besides the fact that motorists barely stop for the police, there is case law that a police officer must see a traffic offense to issue a citation. The decision stemmed from the Boston PD having their cadets write down the license numbers of cars who disregarded their traffic directing efforts (and there are a lot of them), then giving them to the police officer assigned to supervise them. The officer's citations were thrown out because he or another police officer didn't see the infractions.
So, besides being notoriously impatient and arrogant, MA motorists are under no legal obligation whatsoever to obey flagmen. A fact they will exploit to the Nth-degree.
No question I've been away from home for too long, I'm really looking forward to moving back in a few years.
We have the same law here, we too have to see a traffic offense to be able to write a ticket. Plus, we can't just mail it to the violater if we see the infraction off-duty, we have to be on-duty and stop them then and there. I do agree that Mass drivers are pretty crazy. Whenever I talk to folks out here who have traveled back there to the Boston area, they all say the same thing: They love the area but can't get over how crazy the drivers are.
We have quite a few drivers out here in the LA area who either never had a license or whose license is suspended. Also, the streets out here are much wider than back there so cars tend to travel much faster. However, I've never seen a problem with folks stopping for flagmen.. It's amazing the difference from state to state.
Paul,
I agree that folks probably wouldn't stop for flagmen in the first few months but eventually people would get used to it, especially after the first few major crashes with the attached publicity.
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why you guys want to keep details to supplement your base pay, I have a number of friends on the job back there who work them so I get it... I wish we had details out here but we don't. We just work overtime doing police work, which is better than standing at a construction site in the middle of winter!
If folks don't stop for flagmen and crossing guards, don't you think it would be easier to write someone a ticket for not stopping PRIOR to the crash instead of having to clean up the mess AFTER the crash? Besides, it would be great PC to stop all the dirtbags and look for stuff, not to mention all the motor cops whose primary focus is traffic enforcement. (if there aren't any laws against stopping for flagmen, then hopefully something will be written soon if they do get rid of traffic details.)
Whatever happens, I wish you guys luck. It sounds like it's gonna be an uphill battle.
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Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
So how's the weather out in Cali?
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Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
Sunny and about 62, but it's only 9:30 in the morning!
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Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
That's all well and good, assuming you can get overtime. Out here, in my department at least, you have to have a papal decree to get overtime! Many courts are even scheduling eve-shift officers for 3:00 pm ticket appeals to avoiding giving them overtime. Budgets are stretched thin!
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Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
We also have the same thing with appealing tickets, if an officer works nights, he'll be scheduled for afternoon court, same if he works days.
You can also hope for court on your days off. Of course when you work nights and go to criminal court, all court is during the day. I'm glad as a sergeant I don't go to court too often anymore, that's one thing I don't miss!
We have the same budget problems out here. I guess the difference is that there is so much crime happening that the city doesn't have any choice when officers get stuck on a crime scene or make a robbery arrest, etc, just minutes before their end of watch. They have to handle it then.
We also have the same thing with appealing tickets, if an officer works nights, he'll be scheduled for afternoon court, same if he works days.
You can also hope for court on your days off. Of course when you work nights and go to criminal court, all court is during the day. I'm glad as a sergeant I don't go to court too often anymore, that's one thing I don't miss!
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
I heard from numerous credible sources that this is being voted on tomorrow and every rep and senator that has been asked is in support of this non-sense (coming from the Boston area as well as the Cape.) From what I'm being told this is quite the backdoor operation by the State House. I love my job but if this goes through I'll be hanging up the belt for something that pays better for 40 hrs a week.....and I won't be working mids and weekends! It won't be worth working for the PD and then busting my a** during the day for mininum wage somewhere......maybe I can get a job with Citizens for Limited Taxation making 150K a year and just have to put a few quotes in the newspaper every couple of months.....
I heard from numerous credible sources that this is being voted on tomorrow and every rep and senator that has been asked is in support of this non-sense (coming from the Boston area as well as the Cape.) From what I'm being told this is quite the backdoor operation by the State House. I love my job but if this goes through I'll be hanging up the belt for something that pays better for 40 hrs a week.....and I won't be working mids and weekends! It won't be worth working for the PD and then busting my a** during the day for mininum wage somewhere......maybe I can get a job with Citizens for Limited Taxation making 150K a year and just have to put a few quotes in the newspaper every couple of months.....
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935 Posts
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
Details and OT are about 1/3 of my pay. If the details go, OT will be cut-throat. I know I can't survive with that sort of a pay cut. I am lucky that I am approaching 10 years so I will be vested in the pension system. I am also young enough to start a different career. I love my job but I can't do it without the extra details. I unfortunately will be doing something else in a couple of years if this becomes a reality.
Details and OT are about 1/3 of my pay. If the details go, OT will be cut-throat. I know I can't survive with that sort of a pay cut. I am lucky that I am approaching 10 years so I will be vested in the pension system. I am also young enough to start a different career. I love my job but I can't do it without the extra details. I unfortunately will be doing something else in a couple of years if this becomes a reality.
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121,616 Posts
Re: Police Detail slashed in transportation refrom pitch
For all of you politicians that may be reading this thread and I do know that there are a good number of you that do read the threads.
I am not a cop and you should be thankful that I am not, but my solution to this would be to organize a full state wide assault with maxium fines for the smallest infraction by any politician that votes in favor of this bill. The assault would not stop until the day you went out of office.
Not that I am trying to plant something in the minds of all of the officers that will be affected by this BUT this could happen.
There is no good reason under the sun for this bill to even come up other
than for someone to line their pockets.
Look around the room at the ones that will benefit if this passes and grow a set of balls and vote against it and let the vermin crawl back into their holes where they belong.
This is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with my moderating
the MassCops website.
For all of you politicians that may be reading this thread and I do know that there are a good number of you that do read the threads.
I am not a cop and you should be thankful that I am not, but my solution to this would be to organize a full state wide assault with maxium fines for the smallest infraction by any politician that votes in favor of this bill. The assault would not stop until the day you went out of office.
Not that I am trying to plant something in the minds of all of the officers that will be affected by this BUT this could happen.
There is no good reason under the sun for this bill to even come up other
than for someone to line their pockets.
Look around the room at the ones that will benefit if this passes and grow a set of balls and vote against it and let the vermin crawl back into their holes where they belong.
This is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with my moderating
the MassCops website.
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