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Czar of Cyncism and Satire
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I don't know who paid the out-of-towners so to speak but I bet they will be reimbursed by Boston Police. Yup, check is in the mail, only driven by a little old lady on Sundays to church. I promise I won't............ you get the picture.

The PC is trying to get it declared a Homeland Security Event so that all monies paid out will be reimbursed by Uncle Sam. Again, your hard earned tax dollars at work, right VOR? Either way, you pay, weather or not the 'LECs or DOC perform the work, or your crew.

I can only imagine that these various 'LEC's were formed by local associations of Chiefs of Police because of the non-responsive nature of the MSP or just plain old bad blood between them & the MSP. Either way, I don't care who is there to help me when I need it. If you and yours don't fight for the federal grant monies, then these guys will. And these various 'LEC's and S/D's have been getting some pretty good toys lately.

What's next, the MetroLEC helicopter? I know someone on here who would just LOVE to fly it.
 

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How can you presume to speak for every member of your department, unless perchance you are the ONLY member of that department...

There are numerous documented incidents involving various 'LEC members driving their personal vehicles to callouts through construction zones, crash scenes, etc. in such a manner as to place the safety of motorists and other officers at risk. Your response certainly cements the fact that YOU are the naive neophyte who can't see the forest for the trees.

Also, you fail to address the issue of diversion of tax dollars. I guess if you're still living at home with Mom, property taxes are another aspect of life you have yet to experience; however is there anyone on this board who does pay taxes who are happy about their dollars being diverted to cover another municipality's shortfalls?

For someone who is all for "local control" of incidents, you certainly seem eager to extend the reach of your efforts.[/quote]

First I work for an average central mass sized department. Approx 20 officers, we are short handed, guess we should fire the chief, oh wait he is requesting the needed officers but the town fathers are a bunch of liberal cop haters. ( Hey are you a selectman or town manager in my town?)

Second, no I do not live at home with MOM. Yes I own my own house. I pay property taxes to the toon of approximately $4300. a year. In addition to the $17,000 I pay in income tax. That does not include my wife's income tax. She pays about 9,000 I also pay tax on two vehicle as well as personal property taxes, lets not forget about sales tax. Tax on my cell phone bill, gas tax, tax alcohol tax. Help me out I know I pay more taxes but I can't seem to remember all of them.

Shit any one up for dumping some tea into the Boston Harbor? :lol:

I chose to move from the town were I work for several reasons so I now live in a town that boarders were I work. I have no problem with the police were I live responding to assist other departments. Hell the last time my department used mutual aid it was from my home town. Funny thing is one week later my department returned the favor and answered a few calls for service as all THEIR cars were tied up.

The only diversion of my money I am concerned with is I WORK MY ASS OFF SO OTHERS CAN SIT ON THEIRS :twisted:

I answered your question now answer mine. What do you do for a living? Or do you use your EBT card to buy your butts and boose. :FM:
 

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I have no problem with the police were I live responding to assist other departments. Hell the last time my department used mutual aid it was from my home town. Funny thing is one week later my department returned the favor and answered a few calls for service as all THEIR cars were tied up.
So, let me get this straight. What you are saying is that both the town you live in and the town you work in do not hire an adequate number of officers because they think that there will always be mutual aid available to cover when things get busy. Very interesting. Of course, if every town plays that game, what happens when the SHTF in multiple towns at once?

I don't think anybody on this board has said that mutual aid is a bad thing. Up here in NH, locals, state, county, etc. back each other up all the time. However, when department and town administrators use mutual aid and LECs as a crutch to reduce costs by hiring an inadequate number of officers, I have a major problem with that.
 

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Not really having any ponies in this race I offer this:

1. It seems the spirit of mutual aid is more about assisting departments in times of crisis or during unplanned "man power" shortages.

2. If there is a planned event, it seems awful fishy to me that a police department couldn't plan for an event WELL in advance and either have local detail from off duty and maybe pull details from surrounding communities with pay v. pull a "mutual aid" request and get away from paying overtime or paying detail pay for off duty officers.

Two examples:

DNC: Was planned WAY WAY WAY in advance, there should have been no need to pull on duty officers from surrounding towns. Plan the details, get the overtime, get off duty officers to fill details, bill the DNC.

RedSox Games: Who would have guessed that they would have won against the Yankees and then won again in the World Series? However with the Yankees they were going to win or lose so to that end they had over a week to figure out manpower needs. The near riots in Boston were not an issue of a need for mutual aid but more an example of a need for better planning. You had to know, either way with the Yankees, there were going to be people ripping up the town in sadness or in joy.

3. If the towns want to do detail pay for stuff and want to offer "first dibs" to local and surrounding towns off duty officers, so be it. If they want to then fill slots with off duty MSP hey that's great too. I don't really think that on duty MSP should be filling what are mostly planned events via mutual aid either.

Example:
I live in a small town, we have 1 chief, and maybe 3 constables, most of which have other jobs. The MSP IS our police force and we rarely call for mutual aid from surrounding towns. I would be REALLY pissed off to find out that while my house was being robbed or some crazy thing was going down at the school the MSP Troopers were on some "mutual aid" detail in Boston for a parade.
Now I'm no one important, don't hold any office or have any influence in the way things go, I'm just saying: If you find you need more police and the work is too burdening, hire more police. If you find you are spending tons of over time money because there are not enough police and too much work, hire more cops. If you are planning an event the nature of the DNC or Red Sox Parade, get off duty to fill the details and let some cops make a little extra jing.
 

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OK, got to put some light on the reality of small towns, budgets and PDs.

I live in a small town that has NOT expanded its PD in the 30 years I've been here, in spite of a 64% increase in population. The town is almost 100% residential, so we get killed on taxes to keep the schools going (no preventative maintenance on buildings), repair, additions to accommodate more students, and G&A of running a school system.

Not much left over for general town needs. PD, FD, Library, Town Hall all get the short shrift on budgets. Open Town Meeting means we all get to vote on $, so it is NOT any one person's fault. Each year the department heads are asked to come up with 3 budget proposals: 5% less, even with current year, and 5% increase (max). With cost of fuel, heating oil, electricity, gas heat, insurance, etc. increases in the past year I dare say that a 5% increase of budget wouldn't even cover it, never mind paying the help!

A few years ago we were faced with a $3Million override for schools - that passed. Also there was a ~$180K override for "town business" (replacing 2 POs, FD, town hall, etc.) - this FAILED. Another override was to keep the Public Library open on Sundays for $35K - this one also FAILED.

I was a Reserve/Special PO for 17 years but no longer have anything directly to do with the PD. After the override failed, I paid a visit to our chief and asked him what he wanted to do and if he wanted to make a case (he never did that before the vote) for the additional officers (actually replacements) I was going to offer to help him make the case to perhaps get another vote on the matter. He looked at me and said something to the effect of "we'll just do without"! Bad attitude, yup! But reality is that each year we "do without" and end up with a little less, and even less, ad nauseum.

So, it's easy to say "just hire what you need" but you can't do that unless you can get the money to do so and keep them! Not very easy and bake sales won't earn enough to keep your PD afloat!
 

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The point is, people need to figure out if they need more cops or not.
Pulling mutual aid to cover budget shortfalls and to limit overtime...only prolongs the problem.

Town next to me can come up with $15 million in funding for a new theater to "revitilize" the down town, Then came up with thousands for "sheep", then got millions to build a train station that (Intermodal transportation center) that goes no where. The chief gets bitch slapped each time he goes in to the Town council about overtime spending and budget shortfalls, it's like pulling teeth to watch him try and add a sworn officer to the budget.

My town, we can give up $50K a year for a public sewer that basically services second homes, we can come up with over $100K for "project design" for a new town hall - granted we only had two "approved" plans before. We can spend 5 million on a school for a town of 1600 people, 1000 of which are full time residents... But go to a town meeting and we can't come up with $2K for extra police details and for adding some extra MSP patrols?

It's called priorities and unfortunately too many people have their head up their ass when it comes to them.

OK, got to put some light on the reality of small towns, budgets and PDs.

I live in a small town that has NOT expanded its PD in the 30 years I've been here, in spite of a 64% increase in population. The town is almost 100% residential, so we get killed on taxes to keep the schools going (no preventative maintenance on buildings), repair, additions to accommodate more students, and G&A of running a school system.

Not much left over for general town needs. PD, FD, Library, Town Hall all get the short shrift on budgets. Open Town Meeting means we all get to vote on $, so it is NOT any one person's fault. Each year the department heads are asked to come up with 3 budget proposals: 5% less, even with current year, and 5% increase (max). With cost of fuel, heating oil, electricity, gas heat, insurance, etc. increases in the past year I dare say that a 5% increase of budget wouldn't even cover it, never mind paying the help!

A few years ago we were faced with a $3Million override for schools - that passed. Also there was a ~$180K override for "town business" (replacing 2 POs, FD, town hall, etc.) - this FAILED. Another override was to keep the Public Library open on Sundays for $35K - this one also FAILED.

I was a Reserve/Special PO for 17 years but no longer have anything directly to do with the PD. After the override failed, I paid a visit to our chief and asked him what he wanted to do and if he wanted to make a case (he never did that before the vote) for the additional officers (actually replacements) I was going to offer to help him make the case to perhaps get another vote on the matter. He looked at me and said something to the effect of "we'll just do without"! Bad attitude, yup! But reality is that each year we "do without" and end up with a little less, and even less, ad nauseum.

So, it's easy to say "just hire what you need" but you can't do that unless you can get the money to do so and keep them! Not very easy and bake sales won't earn enough to keep your PD afloat!
 

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I would say that the town I live in is staffed at about were they should be. The department I work for. Thats another story. I will say that neither department uses mutual aid as a way to keep the budget or to reduce overtime. We probably help eachother out 6 times a year max. We will not call mutual aid for routine service calls. When I was a dispatcher my favorite thing to do was tell the alarm company's that we would respond when we get time. Shit half of our overtime ends up being ordered as people don't take it as there usually is enough to go around. But like it has been said, public safety is never a priority until you need it. The yuppie crowds that live in the Toll Brothers neighborhoods expect us to jump when they call, but ask them for support forget it.

Lets face it municipal police are the last priority. Consider this. The entire budget for the MCJTC for all recruit, inservice and specialized training is less then what the state police spend on one class. I am not saying that the MSP are spending too much on training but lets face it we are the red headed step children of the state.
 

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topcop,

I think what my fellow part time copier repairman was trying to tell you is that most people support mutual aid when it is used as intended: to help out a neighboring town in a time of need. That means that a patrol from one town slides over to the next town to provide a needed extra body or two. I don't see the taxpayer from the town temporarily contributing the manpower getting gaffed in that situation. Also, that is the underlying spirit of police work: to cover your brother's back.

What VOR and I and many other people have no use for are these LECs reinventing the wheel while spending more of my tax dollars. You said that you pay a lot in taxes. We all do. Would you like to spend less? If your town didn't have to hire a patrol on OT to fill the vacancy created by the LEC member who left his post to running off to some incident 15 towns away, you would. Just wait for the inevitable. Watch how much a municipality has to shell out when one of it's officers goes tearing up a breakdown lane in the family minivan with no lights or siren (happens all the time) and kills a tire changer somewhere outside his town. He's not indemnified. How's that for a tax increase?

I'm very happy with my local police department. They're great prople and I've done a lot of work with many of them. I have no big gripe paying property taxes to my town to support them knowing that these brave men and women will be keeping me safe.

I do have a problem when the patrol covering my neighborhood takes off to a hostage situation 45 minutes away. I'm not paying that officer to do that. That is why we have the state police.
 

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Hey you know what this is all about. OVERTIME. You can say and bullshit your way with my town and your town, fiscal responsibility. BS. Fiscal responsibility is SOMETHING that the state knows nothing about. Now if I had my choice where the OT goes , to the MSP or LOCAL LEC, I will choose local of course. Why? BEcause myself and fellow officers will benefit from it, yes from some of my tax money that I pay, I'd rather have the money spent in my department and so would the residents. The MSP is having some serious problems as more LECs are forming and detering all funds such as being called out on a call OT from MSP to the LECs. That is exactly the only reason the MSP gives a shit about this trend, nothing else. I dont really care that much because I do very well where I am at and all the OT goes to ME, as I do my own accident recon, investigations, etc. The only time we use MSP is for the STOP team and that is once every five years or so. However, NEMLEC is expanding at a great rate and they no longer cover just SWAT, it is recon,motorcycles, crime scene, criminal investigations, K9 and more. These were duties that were once primary reponsibilities of the MSP. SPAM is very worried about this evolution of municipal police services, as they should.

In NH there is a "3000 Rule" which states that the NHSP cannot do any police work in any city or town greater than 3000 residents without permission of that local PD.Hey that could happen here. After the merger, the MSP numbers were way too high and they are running over each other. To change this, the brass in MSP expanded their roles even more with specilaizations to AID local municipalities. The only problem is that it backfired as the local PDs dont want the assistance. So let's cut the crap and really remember what this is all about , MONEY. MSP wants it and so do the LOCAL PD. Who will win, you never know, but I can tell you something that you can take to the bank. NEMLEC,METROSTAR,WEMLEC,NORSTAR are all here to stay and will only get stronger.

I do have a problem when the patrol covering my neighborhood takes off to a hostage situation 45 minutes away. I'm not paying that officer to do that. That is why we have the state police.
One can argue that the reason we have a state police is to patrol state highways. Like other states do. POLICE is POLICE and LOCAL PD will do whatever their Chiefs want them to do. The CHiefs are getiing more powerfull and change is happenning, biggest one is the MPTC.
 

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This is becoming ridiculous. This all comes down to the money. FOLLOW the money! NEMLEC and the SP both have lobbyists on "The Hill". Apparently, both organizations are getting their monies worth out of them. If you want to change anything in the system, change your elected officials. All the organizations represented on this board can have all the pissing matches they want, but it comes down to who has the most money, most influence and most power. "The LEC's" and the SP are not going anywhere, what you can do, is change how your money spent (i.e. vote, run for office). Get the picture?
 

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Lets cut to the bottom line here. Like was said earlier, the only reason the MSP is pissed about this is because they don't get all the OT anymore. The local police are cutting into their money. Plain and Simple. Otherwise they wouldn't care. As for the large events such as DNC or World Series, does anyone really believe that the MSP could have handled it alone with Boston? How big is the STOP team? Bet it's not as large as the NEMLEC and METROLEC Swat, RRT and motorcycle teams combined. Even then, we could have used more guys. The MSP needs to realize that regionalization is the future. It's happening in other parts of the country and it's beginning to happen here. When departments are getting their budgets axed at ridiculous rates, the need for groups such as NEMLEC are increasing.
Besides if the MSP was so concerned about officers "speeding to callouts in their personal vehicles and causing safety issues" then they should think about that when they take their unmarked cruisers with the illegally tinted windows and drive 95 MPH on 128. Lets get real here... If the MSP did what they were designed to do and get back on the highways and stop trying to cut into the municipalities, then there wouldn't be any issues to speak of.
 

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If the MSP did what they were designed to do and get back on the highways and stop trying to cut into the municipalities, then there wouldn't be any issues to speak of.
Learn before you speak.

The MSP has been investigating Homicides, had Narcotics teams, Motorcycles, K-9 and Air Wing LONG before these little upstart teams began. They have been patrolling local areas in Massachusetts since 1865 as the Massachusetts Constabulary and in 1921 as the State Police. There are still many communities in Central and Western Massachusetts that rely on the MSP as their only Police department.

The only reason for the recent increase in the Lecs visiblilty is Ed Flynn and when he goes, as all politicians do, there will another change. Flynn gives the Federal money to the Lecs. Period. The next guy may not.

The MSP isn't trying to "cut into Municipalities", the Lecs are trying to cut into Statewide authority, and that is the MSP's area. That's why you say Bill 593 and various Lecs in areas beyond their scope of coverage at major events. It is a transparent money and glory grab by some pretty shady Chiefs.

If you are a LOCAL cop, patrol your city/town. That is your JOB. It is not your responsibility to be 3 towns away at a barricaded subject. You are a LOCAL Police Officer. If you want to travel around the State, join the State Police. That is their job. They are a STATEWIDE Police agency. If you like traveling the country, then join the FBI. They are a NATIONWIDE Law Enforcement agency. Do your own job.
 

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I'm going to have to side with VOR on the tax allocation issue. I own a small commercial property that I manage for extra money and my commercial RE taxes take a giant leap at any hint of a short fall much more than residential. 2003-2004 they jumped 23%! My rents didn't jump anywhere close to that. If my taxes just went through the roof because my town is spending my money to help someone else I'll shit an eggroll and be at all the town meetings voicing my opinion! I work too damn hard 60-80 hours a week to be paying for someone else's failures or lack of planning!
 

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Excellent questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope to see them answered accurately
:roll:

J809 put it VERY objectively based more on experience (incident) and fact, than emotion and opinion. Here's how I see it.
:wink:
A. MUTUAL AID= should be restricted to a written/signed policy between towns/agencies that share geographical borders. Such a policy should provide imdemity of some form for all officers. Perhaps even the legislature has done this with recent laws?

Versus:

B. LEC/Sheriffs that go 20/50/100 miles out of their jurisdictions I'm NOT saying there shouldn't be specailized teams, BUT, they don't need to go acting like they're part of starfleet with five year missions to boldly go etc, etc, etc.

Peace
 

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j809, it's not about OT, we have enough to satisfy 99.44% of the job. And if your shitty little LEC wants to have "specialists", fine and dandy! I'll put my knowledge and experience up against any of your "recon" people any day of the week, and twice on Sunday! No brag, just fact: your guy cannot handle the number of investigations I do, or that CPAC, fire marshall, or K9 do, to name a few.

What this really comes down to is a bunch of guys that yearn to be "neat". If you want to be "neat" and specialize, you should leave Mayberry and get a job in the "big city"...hell, Barney did! :D This is just an "ego-trip" for locals. And a waste of money.

If you don't want to leave your small town where you can impress all your high school buddies, then accept the police job for what it is, and SHUT-UP!
 

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And if your shitty little LEC wants to have "specialists", fine and dandy! I'll put my knowledge and experience up against any of your "recon" people any day of the week, and twice on Sunday!
Wow, temper ,temper, Punch. Keep whining, LECs aren't going anywhere, they're just getting bigger and that's a fact. You can't tell me that your department has not seen quite a drop in OT as your services are no longer needed in these communities. These specializations now see more action than you might see, as a certain team such as recon, serves 30+ communities and are called out quite a bit. They have total stations like you and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to plot the scene and you only learn by doing a lot of them. Last time I checked ,MSP only has to be notified for unattended deaths and homicides with the exception of Suffolk County. Seems that the MSP is the one that should worry about staffing levels, as most barracks only run with two guys on the road while everyone else is specialized. Like you said , BE A COP, Patrol comes first. :lol: In twenty years maybe I'll say that if you are tired of highway patrol then join the locals and stop whining.

2003-2004 they jumped 23%
P.S. Darknight, I doubt that OT created by two officers from your local department increased your taxes by 23%. That would be the school system and other level funding services that municipalities deal with. And we did have a resident MSP member come to a selectmen meeting a year ago and bitch that we were paying 10% on our medical and we should pay what the state pays, 25%.
 

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Lowell helped Boston and I'm sure Boston does help Lowell when needed. You think all the yahoos in Boston are only from the City of Boston. By the way, this issue in Lowell
is just a pissing contest between Cox and Davis. Hope I spelled everything right.
 

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Well, j809, that situation does not obtain in Worcester County: we still handle the vast majority of collisions there. It should be interesting when the ADA arrives at the fatal scene and requires the MSP. In any event, my training/experience statement stands. Also, we only pay 15%... for a real health plan similar to Blue Cross Master Medical...8)
 

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VOR @ Thu 25 Nov said:
'Nother country heard from.

I'm not against a patrol sliding next door to help another officer on a stop, and in that respect "mutual aid" is just fine.

I have problems with officers taking a 30 mile jaunt to play SWATman. It's reckless, expensive, and redundant, and only serves to inflate egos and inflame tensions. VSP is spead thin but you don't see MSP, NHSP and NYSP reaching tentacles into Vermont now, do you?

Do the job you signed on to do.
Actually they were here for the DNC :-D

Just my :2c:

Scott :pc:
 
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