I'm not a hunter, but I was just curious.... I have a Massachusetts Class A LTC and was wondering if "all lawful purposes" meant that I could hunt with it? I always thought that in order to hunt one needs to pass a hunter safety course???
Mass LTC Class A
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I'm not a hunter, but the hunting/trapping regs (laws) are very strict in MA. You can't hunt much of anything with handgun/rifle in MA. You should be able to pickup the F&G rules at the Town Clerk's office or a local sporting goods store. You do need a hunting license (and they are also specific to what you are hunting) in addition to the proper class of gun permit (LTC-A is best that can be had).
So, no "ALP" doesn't mean you can hunt with a handgun.
HTH
So, no "ALP" doesn't mean you can hunt with a handgun.
HTH
Since I teach all this stuff, here's the answer so far I as know.
1. To get a hunting license in MA you need any ONE of the following:
a. Last years hunting license
b. An FID or LTC
c. A Hunters Safety Course Certificate (card)
d. An affidavit from a CLEO or EPO or someone "official" waiving the above requirements.
2. A Class A ALP is for "all lawful purposes", if you can not hunt game as the per MA hunting regs ala the "methods of taking", it's not lawful, hence not covered by your Class A.
ALP means it must be lawful to be covered.
3. In the abstract it speaks of pistols or revolvers no larger than .38 caliber...but doesn't mention what it can or can't be used for, but I will say I know of no hunting that is allowed with a pistol. I think that you can carry a pistol in the field so long as it's no larger than .38 caliber for 'personal protection' during hunting season.
Here's the online version of the abstract, there are more complete hunting laws and the large book is available from MassWildlife.
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/dfwpdf/dfwab04.pdf
1. To get a hunting license in MA you need any ONE of the following:
a. Last years hunting license
b. An FID or LTC
c. A Hunters Safety Course Certificate (card)
d. An affidavit from a CLEO or EPO or someone "official" waiving the above requirements.
2. A Class A ALP is for "all lawful purposes", if you can not hunt game as the per MA hunting regs ala the "methods of taking", it's not lawful, hence not covered by your Class A.
ALP means it must be lawful to be covered.
3. In the abstract it speaks of pistols or revolvers no larger than .38 caliber...but doesn't mention what it can or can't be used for, but I will say I know of no hunting that is allowed with a pistol. I think that you can carry a pistol in the field so long as it's no larger than .38 caliber for 'personal protection' during hunting season.
Here's the online version of the abstract, there are more complete hunting laws and the large book is available from MassWildlife.
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/dfwpdf/dfwab04.pdf
Some things you CAN hunt with a pistol: bear, coyote, fox.
There is no person protection provision allowing you to carry a handgun while hunting even for LEOs. It is strictly prohibited during the shotgun season for deer.
That reference to .38 caliber mention before refers to regs about hunting at night in a wildlife Management Area during upland bird season.
Just remember that the abstract you get at the clerks office or sporting goods store is only excerpts from the law and not all the laws .Best advise is if you're in doubt call Fish & Game, or your local EPO.
There is no person protection provision allowing you to carry a handgun while hunting even for LEOs. It is strictly prohibited during the shotgun season for deer.
That reference to .38 caliber mention before refers to regs about hunting at night in a wildlife Management Area during upland bird season.
Just remember that the abstract you get at the clerks office or sporting goods store is only excerpts from the law and not all the laws .Best advise is if you're in doubt call Fish & Game, or your local EPO.
Yeah but he's not just asking about deer season. As well look at the overlaps. Lastly the EPO's maybe need a refresher as we just had our meeting for instructors and there was specifically a question about hunting with pistols and what I relayed was what we where told.
You can carry a pistol in the field as long as it's .38 caliber or less for any season. The logic presented was that a larger caliber could be considered a hunting caliber for game . Then it was made mention that during hunting season, if you were not a hunter but a hiker, you could carry any pistol for personal protection, what is with the limitation to .38 caliber. Again it was mentioned that if in the field under a hunting license the ruless "stack" to be the most restrictive.
Oddly in looking at the "hunting calibers" this .38 thing sort of makes "sense"...as .38 isn't a hunting caliber it mentions specific calibers for hunting and they start at .357 for bear.
So during hunting season, not hunting, you can carry anything in the field except in wildlife management areas. Hunting you follow the hunting regs, pure and simple as they are the most restrictive.
But let me ask you as you seem to know more than the EPO that taught our class,
If a person is on private land that is not their own, what can they carry or not carry during deer season as far as a pistol for personal protection, under a hunting license and not using a hunting license, just a class A.
Update:
To add confusion to the pot I just called three different offices in the abstract Western and Central and got the following answers:
Western: No pistols in the field AT ALL, no pistols in your car for personal protection AT ALL during the deer hunting season, doesn't matter if you are not hunting or not...personal protection doesn't exist during Nov to Dec 11th (doesn't sound right to me)
Quoted that abstract says possession not just use as two different issues.
Central district: The pistol and rifle exclusion only apply to hunters engaged in hunting. Seems to mean that if you are carrying a shotgun and hunting, you can't carry any pistol. If you are just hiking, no problem, if you are shooting your rifle or pistol on private land, no problem WMA's are strict rules.
Boston Office
Boston seems to agree with central. Their take is that if you are engaged in hunting, you can't carry a pistol save when it says you can for whatever other reasons during deer season. Example they gave, you are out in the field, and obviously hunting deer, no pistol. You are out in a field and hiking, no shotgun, no blaze orange, no hunting license, and are carrying a gun for personal protection, no problem.
You are in your car, on a highway, with your pistol concealed and carrying under your Class A ALP, no problem. You're in your car coming back from hunting and carrying under your Class A ALP, there might be a problem but probably not. The intent of the law is to keep people from hunting deer with a pistol or rifle, if you are not hunting and it can reasonably be determined that you are not while carrying a pistol, you SHOULD be ok.
So the original information I was given at the yearly instructors calss is wrong, but there also doesn't seem to be a "right" answer as of yet. They also mention that one should talk with MSP, CHSB, and FRB, as to the laws as there are specific exemptions and they might offer more insight as to the handgun laws.
NOTE: I was told that these rules DO NOT pertain to law enforcement while on duty or off duty and not hunting (in all cases). If hunting, Central and Boston said LEO could carry pistols, Western can not.
Here's the paragraph I was referencing in the conversation.
The possession of rifles, handguns, or dogs in any woodland or field,
on any highway, or use of same on any game, is prohibited during the
shotgun deer season except that the use of dogs is lawful for hunting
waterfowl on coastal waters.
You can carry a pistol in the field as long as it's .38 caliber or less for any season. The logic presented was that a larger caliber could be considered a hunting caliber for game . Then it was made mention that during hunting season, if you were not a hunter but a hiker, you could carry any pistol for personal protection, what is with the limitation to .38 caliber. Again it was mentioned that if in the field under a hunting license the ruless "stack" to be the most restrictive.
Oddly in looking at the "hunting calibers" this .38 thing sort of makes "sense"...as .38 isn't a hunting caliber it mentions specific calibers for hunting and they start at .357 for bear.
So during hunting season, not hunting, you can carry anything in the field except in wildlife management areas. Hunting you follow the hunting regs, pure and simple as they are the most restrictive.
But let me ask you as you seem to know more than the EPO that taught our class,
If a person is on private land that is not their own, what can they carry or not carry during deer season as far as a pistol for personal protection, under a hunting license and not using a hunting license, just a class A.
Update:
To add confusion to the pot I just called three different offices in the abstract Western and Central and got the following answers:
Western: No pistols in the field AT ALL, no pistols in your car for personal protection AT ALL during the deer hunting season, doesn't matter if you are not hunting or not...personal protection doesn't exist during Nov to Dec 11th (doesn't sound right to me)
Quoted that abstract says possession not just use as two different issues.
Central district: The pistol and rifle exclusion only apply to hunters engaged in hunting. Seems to mean that if you are carrying a shotgun and hunting, you can't carry any pistol. If you are just hiking, no problem, if you are shooting your rifle or pistol on private land, no problem WMA's are strict rules.
Boston Office
Boston seems to agree with central. Their take is that if you are engaged in hunting, you can't carry a pistol save when it says you can for whatever other reasons during deer season. Example they gave, you are out in the field, and obviously hunting deer, no pistol. You are out in a field and hiking, no shotgun, no blaze orange, no hunting license, and are carrying a gun for personal protection, no problem.
You are in your car, on a highway, with your pistol concealed and carrying under your Class A ALP, no problem. You're in your car coming back from hunting and carrying under your Class A ALP, there might be a problem but probably not. The intent of the law is to keep people from hunting deer with a pistol or rifle, if you are not hunting and it can reasonably be determined that you are not while carrying a pistol, you SHOULD be ok.
So the original information I was given at the yearly instructors calss is wrong, but there also doesn't seem to be a "right" answer as of yet. They also mention that one should talk with MSP, CHSB, and FRB, as to the laws as there are specific exemptions and they might offer more insight as to the handgun laws.
NOTE: I was told that these rules DO NOT pertain to law enforcement while on duty or off duty and not hunting (in all cases). If hunting, Central and Boston said LEO could carry pistols, Western can not.
Here's the paragraph I was referencing in the conversation.
The possession of rifles, handguns, or dogs in any woodland or field,
on any highway, or use of same on any game, is prohibited during the
shotgun deer season except that the use of dogs is lawful for hunting
waterfowl on coastal waters.
I don't have my book with me now, so i'll give a half assed answer, much of this is covered in CMRs. But there are the following MGLs...
Chapter 131: Section 67 Rifles, revolvers and pistols; caliber
Section 67. A person shall not use or possess, where birds or mammals may be found, any rifle chambered to take larger than twenty-two long rifle ammunition, or any revolver or pistol chambered to take larger than thirty-eight caliber ammunition between the hours of one half hour after sunset to one half hour before sunrise of any day throughout the year.
Chapter 131: Section 70 Hunting with rifle, revolver or pistol, or by the aid of a dog; primitive firearms
Section 70. A person shall not, during the open season when deer may be hunted lawfully with a shotgun, hunt a bird or mammal with a rifle, revolver or pistol or by the aid of a dog, or have in his possession or under his control in any wood or field, a rifle, revolver or pistol, or a dog. Nothing in this section shall be deemed to prohibit the use of dogs to hunt waterfowl in coastal waters and salt marshes during the open season on migratory waterfowl.
Notwithstanding the provisions of this section, the director may authorize the use of primitive firearms or shotguns with a rifled bore for hunting during any period when deer may be hunted by means of a firearm under rules and regulations promulgated in accordance with section five.
More to follow once get my hands on my book...
fyi this is the book http://www.gouldlaw.com/showprod.asp?prodinfoid=77 good thing to have esp if you're a hunter ed instructor
Chapter 131: Section 67 Rifles, revolvers and pistols; caliber
Section 67. A person shall not use or possess, where birds or mammals may be found, any rifle chambered to take larger than twenty-two long rifle ammunition, or any revolver or pistol chambered to take larger than thirty-eight caliber ammunition between the hours of one half hour after sunset to one half hour before sunrise of any day throughout the year.
Chapter 131: Section 70 Hunting with rifle, revolver or pistol, or by the aid of a dog; primitive firearms
Section 70. A person shall not, during the open season when deer may be hunted lawfully with a shotgun, hunt a bird or mammal with a rifle, revolver or pistol or by the aid of a dog, or have in his possession or under his control in any wood or field, a rifle, revolver or pistol, or a dog. Nothing in this section shall be deemed to prohibit the use of dogs to hunt waterfowl in coastal waters and salt marshes during the open season on migratory waterfowl.
Notwithstanding the provisions of this section, the director may authorize the use of primitive firearms or shotguns with a rifled bore for hunting during any period when deer may be hunted by means of a firearm under rules and regulations promulgated in accordance with section five.
More to follow once get my hands on my book...
fyi this is the book http://www.gouldlaw.com/showprod.asp?prodinfoid=77 good thing to have esp if you're a hunter ed instructor
Yeah those I have but in reality that makes no real sense...you can't posses a rifle or pistol anywhere where birds or mammals during open hunting season, so that mean in a city walking down the street, there are birds and mammals all over the place...no handgun for personal possesion? But again it says you can have a .38 or lower...
I think they should have included" can't posses a handgun, rifle, bla bla bla FOR HUNTING" to really clear it up.
Then 70 says basically the same thing...but as Boston noted to me, this is if you are a hunter and engaged in hunting...it doesn't preclude you from carrying if not hunting...but the law seems to state otherwise...very confusing.
I think they should have included" can't posses a handgun, rifle, bla bla bla FOR HUNTING" to really clear it up.
Then 70 says basically the same thing...but as Boston noted to me, this is if you are a hunter and engaged in hunting...it doesn't preclude you from carrying if not hunting...but the law seems to state otherwise...very confusing.
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