Discussion in 'Law Enforcement Articles' started by Hush, Oct 7, 2020.
I see an abundance of fail, very interested to hear LA Copper's take:
I wonder how long this officer has been on desk assignment and whether he has any history of disciplinary action that resulted in him being assigned there. I’m just trying to imagine why someone would have this guy walk into the station and not decide to take control of him, whether it was to handcuff him or draw some type of less lethal option.
It very much seems like he does not want to use any force at all. Very quickly he ends up getting his gun taken away and is... quiet about it?
Did anyone get seriously injured as a result of this incident?
Obviously seeing the male come in as hostile as he did (granted neither video has sound till the end) I’m curious why additional units weren’t requested as a precaution.
Secondly, in the apprehension video while we only have the end clip I was shocked the first officer went hands on. Suspect who attacked a PO and has his service weapon still, refusing some commands ?
Edit: Addition footage with details added
+1 for being here for LA’s thoughts
Fighting skills are important. Mindset is more important. He gave up the minute it went sideways, and lay on the floor like a beached whale.
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I'll add to my first comment; I posted the video before watching and just finished watching now. Certainly shows more of the response & other events around it but that take down is bold
The desk officer has 36 years on the job so I'm guessing he's at least 58 years-old, not quite the same as the youngsters who work the field, which probably explains why he was working the desk. Plus, after that much time on the job here in LA, who knows how battered his body is. At least he came out from behind the desk to meet the guy face to face rather than let him jump it.
I haven't heard the "real story" yet and we can't tell in the video because there's no audio at the beginning of their encounter but I would agree, if he didn't, the officer should have called for help sooner then it appears he did.
Without knowing the facts yet, in this case I'll give the officer the benefit of the doubt. He was struck numerous times on the head and face with a 9mm 92F, which as you know is a pretty good size gun (I carry one). Those strikes, coupled with striking his head on the floor when he first fell may have dazed him for a short time, which might be why he was not able to get up and fight back better than he did. (He does say in the video he thought he was "blacking out.")
Regarding less lethal, until the suspect is aggressively physically attacking, we are not allowed to utilize it. In this case, by the time the suspect did that, it looks like the officer decided to go hands on. I'm guessing because he's older he's also "old school" and went hands on, which as we saw here, didn't go too well for him.
The responding watch commander had no idea what she was getting into when she first came out and then dove for cover when the suspect fired at her. At least she was able to get what appears to be two rounds off at him from the floor. Her Help call could have been better though.
As for the pursuit, I'm wondering why the sergeant's car stopped in front of the suspect's car. That made for an obvious crossfire, even though the sergeant did get out of the way pretty quick. I'm also wondering why the primary patrol car stopped so close behind the suspect's vehicle. There may be a reason for it but without knowing why, I can say that's not how we train. (Did you see the right rear tire was completely missing from the suspect's vehicle?)
The officers in the car communicated with each other very well while responding to the Help call and during the pursuit.
As for going hands on with the guy, I can only guess it was because the guy walked back in their direction, got pretty close to them where they could see he had nothing in his hands and decided to take him down during that "window of opportunity." Thankfully nobody "lost it" while taking him into custody. Keep in mind this was only a few days after the sheriff's deputies were ambushed in Compton, which is not far from where this incident happened. I can certainly imagine what was going through their minds when they heard the ambulance request for an Officer Down.
I’m surprised the desk officer is out in the open and not behind a safety barrier of some type- especially with all the lunatics in the world like this one. I know many departments here in MA the dispatch area is sealed up tight like a castle. I guess it’s not how it use to be walking into your friendly neighborhood police station anymore. Now you never know what’s coming into the lobby.
LAPD relies on LL WAY too much. I’ve watched your vaunted videos and am not impressed. Your Officers are constantly putting themselves in harms way, risking the lives and safety of citizens, all so that you can crowd 30+ cops into a situation and brag about how “we used LL...” and it only took hours to remedy the issue, all the while the suspect is dominating the situation.
You are lucky your body count (cops) is low. It will go up if you don’t stop using LL as the be all, end all.
This is one thing where our department is still in the past. All 21 patrol divisions and all 4 traffic divisions still have open front desks where people can speak to officers without having to yell through safety glass. There have been a number of occasions where people have walked in the station and gunfights have erupted between the desk officer(s) and the suspect, which is why our policy says desk officers are required to wear a vest and a full Sam Browne. Community policing is alive and well it would seem.
Open Lobby like that is certainly a shit show, especially given prior history for LAPD. Lucky he didn't just drive right in, cuz he could have easily done that. I would not have left that desk area without letting somebody know either. Ended well as could be expected though.
With the 92FS, it seems like the safety must have been engaged, or was engaged during the struggle. Provides an argument for a manual safety on a service weapon.... But I better argument is to not let your gun get taken in the first place. When that guy made his intent clear, it's time to shift from defensive to offensive and shut him down. scary to think he could have gotten murdered in his own lobby and nobody else would have known until they heard the shots.
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I'm guessing the philosophy is that we meet people on the street countless times every day when it's just two of us with back-up at least a minute or two away and we aren't behind an enclosed structure then so why put one at the front desk where there's normally a bunch of people in the station most of the time with back-up seconds away, not counting graveyards.
Guess we'll see if anything changes out of this incident. As I usually say, there's always learning points in these situations.
I had no idea the LAPD still carried the 92FS...or the M9 to some of us...definitely a bulky gun but it has proven itself to be reliable when needed.
LACOPPER carries one
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I carried one for twelve years.........Don't miss it now with the P226 I carry on Duty
Only older folks like me and that desk officer still carry the Beretta. Those of us who came on the job in the late 80s were issued a .38 S&W. We were then given the opportunity to buy our own 9mm Semi-auto, which then was either a Beretta or a Smith and Wesson, I chose the Beretta. The department began issuing Berettas in the academy around January, 1990.
We had 1000 homicides in a year in those days. Bloods and Crips and MS-13 (among all the other gangs) were extremely active as were the crack cocaine wars so I didn't want to be stuck with a six-shot .38 instead of a 16-shot semi-auto.
Since the North Hollywood Bank of America robbery, we were allowed to switch over to the .45 if we wanted to. I chose to stick with my Beretta because I like it and I shoot well with it. Bill Bratton brought the Glock, which was issued for about 10 years in the academy. We now issue the 9mm S&W M&P.
Carried a Beretta for many years, always liked it.
I always thought it was interesting that LAPD authorized .45 as a response to North Hollywood. Unless I missed something seriously significant, a .45 would have offered the officers no advantage over the 9’s they were carrying in that scenario.
Agreed, but the guys were happy it happened because it was believed the .45 has more stopping power than a 9mm. More importantly, that robbery was also the catalyst to finally allow us to get rifles. We started with Army M-16s for the first few years. Now officers are allowed to purchase their own rifle as long as it is within LAPD specifications.
I switched back to mine, dumping the issue glock.
A couple years ago I sold my Beretta and have regretted it ever since.
I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!
A man who resisted the Dark Side and refused to be a GLOCK GOOBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When my old agency first switched over from our wheelguns, our Range Guy extolled the virtues of said combat Tupperware. After he retired, he told me he hated the Glock but had to sell it to us all...
Glock doesn't even stop a coyote!
One of my 1st guns I ever bought was a Beretta cougar in 40.
To this day I regret trading it.. i shot it well and it,, ate anything I fed it. It was all around fantastic. I have a great friend who was an instructor for both military and a large dept that issued the Beretta 92. He still says it has a place and i beleve him..
I have come to hate the block but its what we're issued. They refuse to change even with just getting new guns and having a shit load of problems w/ the new ones. I lothe it even more In fact now. I used to tolerate it but I don t trust it..but that's just me now.
Anyway imo there are finer firearms I've owned, and carried and even trained with that id rather carry on duty. But like cars, and many other things,, the opinions on guns are subjective. But God I now want to go buy another Beretta just to have it
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