Full Time Academy on PT basis | MassCops

Full Time Academy on PT basis

Discussion in 'MPTC' started by Foxy85, Sep 28, 2018.

  1. Foxy85

    Foxy85 MassCops Member

    So I’m sure this has been discussed ad nauseam - however with colleges beginning to step up and host their own academies (Re: Quinsig, NECC, etc) is there any more legitimate talk or even rumors of a full time academy being offered on a PT basis? Obviously California and Florida have success with these programs... so it’s not unheard of...

    Any info is appreciated - thanks!
    Joel98 and RodneyFarva like this.
  2. RodneyFarva

    RodneyFarva Get off my lawn!

    They do it in the fire services. Get your firefighter 1 and 2 +EMT you are good to go. I would love to see this happen in Mass instead of taking a 6 month work hiatus and squirreling a bunch of cash.
    triplethreat and Joel98 like this.
  3. 02136colonel

    02136colonel Supporting Member

    I don’t love the idea. There’s more to an academy than what you learn. The discipline, the comradery, the total immersion for six months. It’s not like going to college, and I don’t think you can replicate an academy on a part time basis
    Joel98, mpd61, Tuna and 3 others like this.
  4. USAF3424

    USAF3424 MassCops Member

    Wish I could like this 1000 times.
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  5. j809

    j809 Subscribing Member

    I watched a show about Tampa Police rookies and noticed that over half never make FTO. Going to an academic based police academy with no structure, recruits are robbed of the paramilitary structure that they will have to adapt to when working for a police department. Fitchburg State program has a full academy with military style structure.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  6. Joel98

    Joel98 MassCops Member

    I understand where your coming from, however lots of states do it successfully....including California. And it hasn't seemed to be a problem there, given that CA has some of the highest quality agencies in the country that are very, very busy, servicing populations of a million plus.
    pahapoika likes this.
  7. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    Have been through both full-time and part-time academies.

    Needless to say they are not even remotely similar. However If somebody changed their mind later on in life and decided to enter the profession a part-time academy would make it feasible to keep supporting a family.

    Definitely agree not having an FTO is insane given the legal mine field out there .
  8. Foxy85

    Foxy85 MassCops Member

    I understand there are arguments about it from both sides... not disputing that.

    I think it should have to be the same amount of hours, with the same graduation standards for everything (academics, PT, DT, firearms, etc...)

    I’m just curious with the PT academy creeping up in hours, nearly half the FT academy now, and I’ve heard talks of adding more hours....

    Just wondering if anyone has any insight from MPTC regarding this, directly or indirectly...
  9. PG1911

    PG1911 Back Out in the Sticks

    PA offers full time academy in part time night classes as well. I did that 4 years ago.

    Both the day and night programs at my academy are paramilitary, so the same level of discipline and professionalism, as well as the stress of getting yelled at and getting smoked for screw ups and all that stuff, was present regardless of which class you took. That said, it is significantly more relaxed in the night class. Every one of us chose the night class because we had full time jobs and other obligations that prevented us from doing the day class. Balancing our professional and financial obligations while taking on the commitment of a nearly year long class is seen as a nearly equivalent amount of stress as getting yelled at and smoked constantly for 6 months, so they back off (a bit) on that front. I don't think we had lessened comradery by being in the night class, though; we all were a very close bunch, and remain so to this day. It took a significant amount of work to get everyone through, and we all had to rely on each other to succeed, so that glued us together.

    I will admit though, the experience was no doubt different than the day class. Like you said, when you've got 6 months of nothing but the academy, it's different than when it's just another thing added onto your list of things that you're doing in your life. Plus, in a full time day class, there's more time for practicing practical skills. We were severely lacking in time for mechanics of arrest, car stops, defensive tactics, etc. Granted, part of that was Pennsylvania's fault; their municipal academy requirements spend way too much time on learning irrelevant theoretical stuff and too little time teaching cadets how to actually be cops.

    The thing is, in PA, and it seems to becoming more and more true in MA, a FT academy on PT schedule is needed. Here in PA, with the exception of Philly PD and PA State Police, very, VERY few departments will hire someone and send him to the academy. I'd say a good 95 to 98% of departments, including many large departments, require a candidate to have either graduated or be in the process of completing the academy. Self-sponsorship is pretty much a must if one wants a shot at being a cop in this state. Unless one is still living with their parents, has a working spouse, or is in any way free of other obligations, the only way they can do it is to do the part time class.

    Honestly though, both states could eliminate this problem if they just did away with the whole self and/or department sponsorship thing. Do it like most of the other states: A person has to be hired first before they can go to the academy.
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  10. Edmizer1

    Edmizer1 MassCops Member

    A few years ago the MPTC instituted a program where recruits could attend certain "full-time" academies that were a little more than 1/2 the length of a regular academy if they at least had a two year degree in CJ from certain schools in Mass that had supposedly largely prepared these recruits in advance. After complaints from chiefs that the recruits who went to those programs were not prepared for the profession, those programs were stopped. Those programs simply were not long enough to get the basic training needed. The degree programs that supposedly bridged the gap did not do anything to prepare the recruits.

    There are now programs in Mass where college students will graduate from college with an MPTC full time police academy certificate after 5 years. I can tell you that many police executives are concerned about the quality of these programs as they relate to officers being prepared for the profession. We will see what happens when these people enter the field.

    The MPTC basically wants to get out of the job of directly providing police training. They want to be what OEMS is to EMTs, a regulatory and licensing agency. There was a huge push for police officer licensing in Mass a few years ago but it seems to have stalled. There is staff at the MPTC working on the licensing regulations and mandatory curriculum to get licensed.
    Joel98 likes this.
  11. Joel98

    Joel98 MassCops Member

    You’re correct, and honestly I don’t see it ever going that way here in MA. Although many other states have a centralized state agency that licenses police officers, we in MA do not, and essentially it is up to the individual Chiefs. And I don’t ever see the Chiefs being willing to give up the power over who they hire, who they retain, and who they fire.

    The Chiefs associations in MA are pretty powerful.
  12. USAF3424

    USAF3424 MassCops Member

    If you cant handle getting yelled at I dont want you backing me up. I work with enough people that snuck through the cracks in the academy, never did a thing, and are afraid of their own shadow. I couldn’t imagine if we had a classroom only style academy.
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  13. Edmizer1

    Edmizer1 MassCops Member

    It may take a long time for it to happen but the legislation has been written and submitted but it always stalls. If Mass has a significant police scandal (Rodney King type incident) we will see licensing in under 6 months.
  14. Joel98

    Joel98 MassCops Member

    Maybe, but then again they've been talking about merging SSPO with municipal and making it all the same thing since the early 2000's, and it still hasn't happened.
  15. Kilvinsky

    Kilvinsky I think, therefore I'll never be promoted.

  16. Edmizer1

    Edmizer1 MassCops Member

    The only talk about merging SSPO and MPTC full time has been from people outside the organizations. There has been no legislation written and no proposals put forth. Up until a couple of years ago the MPTC wouldn't even accept a the SSPO as equivalent to MPTC part-time training. SSPO is run by MSP and MPTC run municipal recruit academies. As it stands now, they basically have nothing to do with each other. The campuses will fight to the death before they will support a crossover training program. Even if the SSPO gets increased to one minute less than full-time municipal training, it is unlikely there will ever be a way to jump from one to the other.
  17. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

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  18. Bloodhound

    Bloodhound MassCops Member

  19. Treehouse413

    Treehouse413 MassCops Member

    Took a class last year for hiring new recruits and doing backgrounds. Man I thought this guy was super squared away. I guess you never know.
  20. Foxy85

    Foxy85 MassCops Member

    This was taken out of the meeting minutes. Anyone have any insight as to whether or not this is happening any time soon?

    Attached Files:

  21. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

  22. 38bigblock

    38bigblock MassCops Member

    Lol! I’m feeling a “Met merge with MSP” type-conversation coming to the “real” academy guys on the road :D
  23. PG1911

    PG1911 Back Out in the Sticks

    It'll be worth it to do the FT on PT basis, but ONLY if they make academy certification (semi) permanent. If a person is going to spend a nearly year long commitment, in addition to thousands of dollars, to get their certification, only for it to expire in 2 years if they don't get a job, it's not worth it. Do what the others states that use that model do: Take update classes as needed, have recertification test every two or so years if you're not on the job.
    pahapoika, Goose and Joel98 like this.
  24. Foxy85

    Foxy85 MassCops Member

    So I heard the renewed rumor of a bridge course for PT officers getting certifiied as FT. A full time Sgt in the area that I work said he heard all PT officers will eventually be required to go back and attend. That Mass is going to require the same training for both full and part time in terms of hours...

    Any truth to this and if so any info on logistics? Some towns rely heavily on PTers, not sure all of them would want to go back for the hours or even incur the cost to go...
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  25. RodneyFarva

    RodneyFarva Get off my lawn!

    I work part time only and recently I have had overtime in my check due to unfilled shifts. I work as a part time officer with full time hours I would love to see this happen.
    Kilvinsky and pahapoika like this.

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