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Discussion starter · #21 ·
Remember that leaving CS, prevents people from lateral transferring to other depts. Framingham pays so poorly that I’d imagine they have a retention problem. Recruitment won’t be an issue because there are always people that will take the job, but retention will be an issue when their officers jump ship to go to cities that pay better. Leaving CS prevents people from leaving for lateral CS jobs.
Granted the people already OTJ will keep their CS status, but new hires won’t, and it will make them easier to hold on to.
 
CS has been getting watered down for years. They almost always now side with the towns. Even when the towns lose a CS case, the new trick is to just ignore the decision and let the appeals begin. Take a look at the legislature, they want to eliminate CS so bad they can taste it. If you can get something now, take it before it is suddenly gone after a 4am vote on some random Tuesday.
On discipline and termination cases, I'll agree they usually side with the municipality, because the plaintiff is usually on their third or fourth strike. You have to really work at it to get fired from a MA Civil Service police job, but you have a better chance at arbitration, if that's an option with your CBA.

For bypasses (initial hire and promotion), CS often sides with the plaintiff, because so many cities and towns play political games with the process. Boston was forced to fire the psychologist that did their psych exams, because she automatically disqualified any military veteran on the assumption they had PTSD, it didn't matter if they were a cook or clerk. CS overturned almost every single one of the cases, and those veterans would have been shit out of luck without Civil Service.
 
Remember that leaving CS, prevents people from lateral transferring to other depts. Framingham pays so poorly that I'd imagine they have a retention problem. Recruitment won't be an issue because there are always people that will take the job, but retention will be an issue when their officers jump ship to go to cities that pay better. Leaving CS prevents people from leaving for lateral CS jobs.
Granted the people already OTJ will keep their CS status, but new hires won't, and it will make them easier to hold on to.
A detective from Framingham left last year with over 15 years to take a position next door in a non civil
Service department. He loves it. One can always leave a civil service department for an non civil service. It's when you want to lateral to another CS PD that both chiefs have to sign off on transfer

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In the current policing climate, with the lack of interest from potential applicants and veterans, your chances of getting hired have never been better. Look at the State police exams. When the 80th RTT was running they didn't dip below a 98 on the CS exam. Now they dip down to what 87? PDs are hurting for officers due to retirements at record numbers. It's nearly impossible to not get hired by a PD right now.

How do you think a non CS pd "exam" will go? If you can't pass a civil service exam, you won't do any better on the SAT style tests some departments use. I know on my PD, no matter what you score, they still hire who they want. So good luck.
 
A detective from Framingham left last year with over 15 years to take a position next door in a non civil
Service department. He loves it. One can always leave a civil service department for an non civil service. It's when you want to lateral to another CS PD that both chiefs have to sign off on transfer.
I know exactly who you're talking about, he left because the pay absolutely sucks at Framingham, but that's solely up to the CBA between the municipality and the union, Civil Service has absolutely nothing to do with that.

Now that he's there, he's hostage to the political whims of the chief and/or town manager for promotion.

Civil Service sucks until you need it. If you're a political animal or a shameless suckass, you may never need a relatively independent board of appeal. If you ever do, never complain that you decided to go the non-CS route.
 
He’s no hostage. He’s a good cop and because of his experience they made him a detective. If you have a good CBA you’re very well protected and promotion language in many non CS contracts is very strong. I know some that went to arbitration etc. my hometown just left CS. Their contracts sucked, 5-2, no Quinn, no first right of refusal on overtime(went to reserves). We cleaned up our contract a few years ago with the masscop lawyers and added all the extra language for protections. In Civil service, I know many people that got the shaft on promotions with little recourse. Even if you get bypassed all CS can do is tell them to put you to top of list. Chiefs wait for list to expire and hire someone else.


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No, non-CS departments can hire whoever they like, regardless of the sham exam scores, and those who are bypassed have no recourse whatsoever.

In other words, the Purple Heart disabled combat veteran with a back full of shrapnel who scored 100 can (and will be) passed over for the cousin of the best friend of a selectman's hairdresser who scored a 70, and the screwed-over Veteran has zero recourse.
Do you consider that system fair? And, does the "remove political influence from public sector hiring", which was the stated goal of CS to begin with, still seem fair?
ok and the guy like me who has a master's degree 12 years on the Job and a FUCK TON of advanced training cant even apply for a bigger agency because im not a vet or resident. So which is fair? How is the "best candidate" being selected when a guy with a slamming resume one town over cant even get an interview. Civil service is an antiquated system that wont exist in less than 10
Years.... RI has no civil service system and guess what i have a shit load of buddies who got on not knowing anyone guess how? They were good fucking applicants
 
ok and the guy like me who has a master's degree 12 years on the Job and a FUCK TON of advanced training cant even apply for a bigger agency because im not a vet or resident. So which is fair? How is the "best candidate" being selected when a guy with a slamming resume one town over cant even get an interview. Civil service is an antiquated system that wont exist in less than 10
Years.... RI has no civil service system and guess what i have a shit load of buddies who got on not knowing anyone guess how? They were good fucking applicants
Every person in Massachusetts who wants to be a cop knows that Veterans get Civil Service preference.

What exactly prevented you from enlisting?
 
We have three combat vets on our PD and we are nonCS. We also only hire trained people and don’t send anyone to the academy. I have no problem giving preference to veterans and thank them for their service. Absolute preference is not the way to go, a poor system like the MSP and the feds is more fair.


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He's no hostage. He's a good cop and because of his experience they made him a detective. If you have a good CBA you're very well protected and promotion language in many non CS contracts is very strong. I know some that went to arbitration etc. my hometown just left CS. Their contracts sucked, 5-2, no Quinn, no first right of refusal on overtime(went to reserves). We cleaned up our contract a few years ago with the masscop lawyers and added all the extra language for protections. In Civil service, I know many people that got the shaft on promotions with little recourse. Even if you get bypassed all CS can do is tell them to put you to top of list. Chiefs wait for list to expire and hire someone else.
There have been cases of that, and the aggrieved can go to Superior Court to enforce the CS decision. When a Superior Court judge orders "_________ SHALL be promoted to the rank of _________ immediately", then you do it.

No judge in the world is going to order a promotion for a non-CS department.
 
There have been cases of that, and the aggrieved can go to Superior Court to enforce the CS decision. When a Superior Court judge orders "_________ SHALL be promoted to the rank of _________ immediately", then you do it.

No judge in the world is going to order a promotion for a non-CS department.
How do you know ? What experience do you have in that? I know people that towns were forced to promote when they won at arbitrator. Binding arbitration

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Leaving civil service can be a great move provided you are compensated accordingly for the change AND your city/town accepts the union's properly created system for handling promotions, discipline, and appeals through arbitration. That is usually where the deal falls apart though.
 
Leaving civil service can be a great move provided you are compensated accordingly for the change AND your city/town accepts the union's properly created system for handling promotions, discipline, and appeals through arbitration. That is usually where the deal falls apart though.
They have to negotiate those under mandatory subject of bargaining for conditions of employment. Some towns are cute and won't provide anymore financial gains but they have to negotiate the other terms.

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My mom was sick with cancer so i stayed home and commuted to school.... not everyone can sign up and just because youre a vet doesn't make you a
good cop
Correct, it's usually doesn't make you a better cop. That's not the point. From a starting point, the vet has made sacrifices, usually in war time to get that preference. They served their country, took a step towards a big unknown so they should be rewarded for it. I have my bachelors, and completed it after I was on, but I got WAY more useful police experience from the military than college. I don't want to hear "well I made sacrifices too working at McDonald's and putting myself through the reserve academy". I have also talked to multiple guys before who have asked me for advice getting on in Mass and twice I remember Recommending the military and they said something along the lines of "well I don't want to be hurt or killed". Atleast they were honest, but the last kid that said that too me I said "well fuck you then, find something else to do". I figured out the CS game at age 20, realized my continuing on after my associates in CJ was a waste of time to be hired initially.

That being said, Samadam I completely understand the guy who has been on for a while, has a bunch of specialized training, shouldn't be behind a vet with no experience in CS I don't think that's right either. I have heard guys complain about promotional exams and vet pref. I get their point too, that the vets got it on the initial hire, even though it would personally help me. CS should change some of that, but from a starting point..
 
Correct, it's usually doesn't make you a better cop. That's not the point. From a starting point, the vet has made sacrifices, usually in war time to get that preference. They served their country, took a step towards a big unknown so they should be rewarded for it. I have my bachelors, and completed it after I was on, but I got WAY more useful police experience from the military than college. I don't want to hear "well I made sacrifices too working at McDonald's and putting myself through the reserve academy". I have also talked to multiple guys before who have asked me for advice getting on in Mass and twice I remember Recommending the military and they said something along the lines of "well I don't want to be hurt or killed". Atleast they were honest, but the last kid that said that too me I said "well fuck you then, find something else to do". I figured out the CS game at age 20, realized my continuing on after my associates in CJ was a waste of time to be hired initially.

That being said, Samadam I completely understand the guy who has been on for a while, has a bunch of specialized training, shouldn't be behind a vet with no experience in CS I don't think that's right either. I have heard guys complain about promotional exams and vet pref. I get their point too, that the vets got it on the initial hire, even though it would personally help me. CS should change some of that, but from a starting point..
I'm very happy where I am and glad I made the decision to work where I am. But 20 years ago I grew up and lived in a big city on the south shore. I had 101 on test with experience points, bachelors degree, full time academy and 4 years full time experience. Even as a resident too I was like 50 on the list. Like I said it has to have some fairness in the system. I believe they should do what they used to do many years ago, 5 points for vet and 10 points for dvet.

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Correct, it's usually doesn't make you a better cop. That's not the point. From a starting point, the vet has made sacrifices, usually in war time to get that preference. They served their country, took a step towards a big unknown so they should be rewarded for it. I have my bachelors, and completed it after I was on, but I got WAY more useful police experience from the military than college. I don't want to hear "well I made sacrifices too working at McDonald's and putting myself through the reserve academy". I have also talked to multiple guys before who have asked me for advice getting on in Mass and twice I remember Recommending the military and they said something along the lines of "well I don't want to be hurt or killed". Atleast they were honest, but the last kid that said that too me I said "well fuck you then, find something else to do". I figured out the CS game at age 20, realized my continuing on after my associates in CJ was a waste of time to be hired initially.

That being said, Samadam I completely understand the guy who has been on for a while, has a bunch of specialized training, shouldn't be behind a vet with no experience in CS I don't think that's right either. I have heard guys complain about promotional exams and vet pref. I get their point too, that the vets got it on the initial hire, even though it would personally help me. CS should change some of that, but from a starting point..
Im all for the military Tons of respect and admiration and i have family members who have served and still are active Duty...
I think the problem with CS is two fold
1. Add points for military not absolute preference
2. Consideration of some sort of lateral program from non cs to cs depts.
 
My mom was sick with cancer so i stayed home and commuted to school.... not everyone can sign up and just because youre a vet doesn't make you a good cop
Yes, everyone can sign up. There were a few guys in their 30's in my BCT company.

If you're excluded from enlisting in the military, then you'll never pass the background to become a cop, anyway.
 
Yes, everyone can sign up. There were a few guys in their 30's in my BCT company.

If you're excluded from enlisting in the military, then you'll never pass the background to become a cop, anyway.
Not necessarily. There are physical and medical issues that will disqualify people from military service that won't be issues for police work. I couldn't enlist because of a medical issue that the military wouldn't waive, but I got a police job despite the issue.
 
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