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Framingham leaving Civil Service

8K views 46 replies 14 participants last post by  IamTheDude 
#1 ·
#5 ·
Full Quinn is definitely worth making some concessions for. I’d be curious to see if they got it as a lump sum/“stipend” each year or if it’s added to their base pay. The second option is much better bc it’s built into your OT rate, but not too many contracts include it.
Hopefully Natick can also get full Quinn for leaving CS, I think their contract is better than Framingham at baseline but if you can get a concession all the better.
 
#8 ·
It's a complicated answer. Usually, the city/town will negotiate with the unions to come to an agreement to leave. Then it's "the way you came in is how you go out". In other words, as one example, if a town entered civil service through a Town Meeting vote, then they would have to leave through a Town Meeting vote. There is also another mechanism that a town could use to force it if the unions won't come to an agreement. In Framingham's case, the rank-and-file got the wool pulled over their eyes by their own union president (my opinion, I'm just a guy on the internet).
 
#12 ·
Doesn’t have to go town meeting anymore. They can leave by a selectmen mayor or town manager decision and they only have to negotiate with union over contract language for promotions discipline etc. They don’t have to give the union anything money $ for it but most towns do.


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#14 ·
Doesn't have to go town meeting anymore. They can leave by a selectmen mayor or town manager decision and they only have to negotiate with union over contract language for promotions discipline etc. They don't have to give the union anything money $ for it but most towns do.

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No selectmen mayor or town manager can unilaterally decide for the municipality to leave civil service. Webster just went through this in January Webster voters OK dropping Civil Service for police
 
#16 ·
Framingham is a busy department. I am curious what they received. Last I heard, you got a stipend of $3,000 for a bachelor's. Their pay scale was terrible. Top step was $32 after 25 years of service.
Natick starting pay has been decent. I started in a civil service department and my union voted to get out like everyone else, for education incentive. However, the sham hiring process we have now is criminal. I can't wait for all the bitching in 5 years saying these hiring processes are BS and want CS back.

Good luck to those trying to promote as well. It will be a suck fest for rank.
 
#18 ·
Framingham is a busy department. I am curious what they received. Last I heard, you got a stipend of $3,000 for a bachelor's. Their pay scale was terrible. Top step was $32 after 25 years of service.
Natick starting pay has been decent. I started in a civil service department and my union voted to get out like everyone else, for education incentive. However, the sham hiring process we have now is criminal. I can't wait for all the bitching in 5 years saying these hiring processes are BS and want CS back.

Good luck to those trying to promote as well. It will be a suck fest for rank.
Bingo.

It's been my experience that those who bitch the loudest about Civil Service are non-Veterans (who should shut the fuck up) or those who can't make the score to get hired, and are either bitter, or need to use their political juice to get hired.

Those people should also shut the fuck up.
 
#19 ·
CS has been getting watered down for years. They almost always now side with the towns. Even when the towns lose a CS case, the new trick is to just ignore the decision and let the appeals begin. Take a look at the legislature, they want to eliminate CS so bad they can taste it. If you can get something now, take it before it is suddenly gone after a 4am vote on some random Tuesday.
 
#22 ·
On discipline and termination cases, I'll agree they usually side with the municipality, because the plaintiff is usually on their third or fourth strike. You have to really work at it to get fired from a MA Civil Service police job, but you have a better chance at arbitration, if that's an option with your CBA.

For bypasses (initial hire and promotion), CS often sides with the plaintiff, because so many cities and towns play political games with the process. Boston was forced to fire the psychologist that did their psych exams, because she automatically disqualified any military veteran on the assumption they had PTSD, it didn't matter if they were a cook or clerk. CS overturned almost every single one of the cases, and those veterans would have been shit out of luck without Civil Service.
 
#21 ·
Remember that leaving CS, prevents people from lateral transferring to other depts. Framingham pays so poorly that I’d imagine they have a retention problem. Recruitment won’t be an issue because there are always people that will take the job, but retention will be an issue when their officers jump ship to go to cities that pay better. Leaving CS prevents people from leaving for lateral CS jobs.
Granted the people already OTJ will keep their CS status, but new hires won’t, and it will make them easier to hold on to.
 
#23 ·
Remember that leaving CS, prevents people from lateral transferring to other depts. Framingham pays so poorly that I'd imagine they have a retention problem. Recruitment won't be an issue because there are always people that will take the job, but retention will be an issue when their officers jump ship to go to cities that pay better. Leaving CS prevents people from leaving for lateral CS jobs.
Granted the people already OTJ will keep their CS status, but new hires won't, and it will make them easier to hold on to.
A detective from Framingham left last year with over 15 years to take a position next door in a non civil
Service department. He loves it. One can always leave a civil service department for an non civil service. It's when you want to lateral to another CS PD that both chiefs have to sign off on transfer

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#24 ·
In the current policing climate, with the lack of interest from potential applicants and veterans, your chances of getting hired have never been better. Look at the State police exams. When the 80th RTT was running they didn't dip below a 98 on the CS exam. Now they dip down to what 87? PDs are hurting for officers due to retirements at record numbers. It's nearly impossible to not get hired by a PD right now.

How do you think a non CS pd "exam" will go? If you can't pass a civil service exam, you won't do any better on the SAT style tests some departments use. I know on my PD, no matter what you score, they still hire who they want. So good luck.
 
#26 ·
He’s no hostage. He’s a good cop and because of his experience they made him a detective. If you have a good CBA you’re very well protected and promotion language in many non CS contracts is very strong. I know some that went to arbitration etc. my hometown just left CS. Their contracts sucked, 5-2, no Quinn, no first right of refusal on overtime(went to reserves). We cleaned up our contract a few years ago with the masscop lawyers and added all the extra language for protections. In Civil service, I know many people that got the shaft on promotions with little recourse. Even if you get bypassed all CS can do is tell them to put you to top of list. Chiefs wait for list to expire and hire someone else.


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#30 ·
He's no hostage. He's a good cop and because of his experience they made him a detective. If you have a good CBA you're very well protected and promotion language in many non CS contracts is very strong. I know some that went to arbitration etc. my hometown just left CS. Their contracts sucked, 5-2, no Quinn, no first right of refusal on overtime(went to reserves). We cleaned up our contract a few years ago with the masscop lawyers and added all the extra language for protections. In Civil service, I know many people that got the shaft on promotions with little recourse. Even if you get bypassed all CS can do is tell them to put you to top of list. Chiefs wait for list to expire and hire someone else.
There have been cases of that, and the aggrieved can go to Superior Court to enforce the CS decision. When a Superior Court judge orders "_________ SHALL be promoted to the rank of _________ immediately", then you do it.

No judge in the world is going to order a promotion for a non-CS department.
 
#29 ·
We have three combat vets on our PD and we are nonCS. We also only hire trained people and don’t send anyone to the academy. I have no problem giving preference to veterans and thank them for their service. Absolute preference is not the way to go, a poor system like the MSP and the feds is more fair.


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