Is that a "detective, narc, etc are issued small weapons"Killjoy";p="51627 said:The MSP issues small pistols as backup/deep cover weapons for narcs and other detective units, however I am reluctant to provide details of make, model, caliber, holster(s) etc., due to security concerns; remember anyone can read this site!
I agree completely; as long as you have good shoot, the DA in your jurisdiction could not charge you with anything, even if you used "unauthorized" weapon. I suppose your department could try to hold you in violation of their particular policies, but this is not the same as breaking the law, and it would be a highly chickensh*t department that would.All right, it may to your department, but that chickenshit will not make muster if the shoot is good and the decedant is a known scumbag.
You are right, a back up gun can't be used as a drop gun as long as it's registered with the department and DOJ. We in LA qualify with our duty gun every other month! We qualify with the shotgun twice a year. Some of us carry M-16s. We have to qualify three times a year with them. But, we don't have to qualify with our back up guns, although the department encourages us to practice with them.Killjoy";p="58776 said:There really isn't any logic to it, but two things come to mind;
1. There are concerns that back-up guns could be used as "drop" guns...a completely ridiculous assertion considering firearms can be traced. If an unscrupolous police officer wanted to do something like that they could use a completely untraceable knife.
2. Departments in Mass are cheap, they cry and moan about once a year qualification with a duty weapon, the last thing departments want to do is pay for qualification for 2 weapons.
I would take serious issue with this....the Chief cannot "create" law; if you are issued a Class A LTC for "all lawful purposes" you can carry whatever you want off-duty. He can no more tell you what to carry on your own time as tell you what kind of car to drive off duty. According to Mass law, if, during a critical incident, you identify yourself as a police officer, you are acting under protection of the law until the local on-duty police arrive.He created a policy in the mid-1990s that states that any officer who carries anything except the issue weapon, OFF-DUTY . . . if he gets involved with anything "he is not acting as a police officer"!
Sir,chief801";p="58802 said:Before I subject myself to the inevitable barrage of negative responses, let me qualify my statements. I am a firearms instructor, and I am trained in SWAT tactics, hostage rescue, etc. By no means am I anti-gun, quite the contrary, I enjoy shooting and am very officer safety oriented.
I have two problems with back-up weapons, one from an instructor standpoint, the other from a chief's view. First, I would ask all of you to take a look at your individual departments. How many of your co-workers actually "train" as opposed to just doing mandatory qualification? Qualification isn't enough to make you proficient in the use of one weapon, let alone two. For those of you that do carry a BUG, do you practice retrieving that weapon and firing it in any sort of tactical simulation? If you don't, the chances of you retrieving that weapon and deploying it effectively under stress is very thin. You are talking about employing fine motor skills for which you have not acquired any muscle memory. Under stress, fine motor skills go out the window unless they have been practiced. There is also a concern with handgun retention. Can you effectively retain two weapons?
From the Chief's perspective...you have to remember, policies and training have to be to be written to cover the "worst officer" scenario. We all know the guy who hasn't broken leather or even cleaned his weapon since the last qualification! This is the guy keeping you from carrying a BUG, not the Chief. Many of you will say, "Well punish him, not me". You all know that this type of selective policy enforcement would bring hell-fire from your unions.
I would venture to guess (I have no statistics) that the number of times an officer has saved his bacon with a BUG pales in comparison to the number of officers shot with their own weapon. If someone were to attempt to disarm you of your primary, you may pull out your BUG and avoid being shot, but as I stated earlier, without "real" training, it probably ain't gonna happen. What you have done by bringing another weapon into the mix is actually increase your chances of being shot by one of your own guns.
Be honest with yourselves. How many of you actually train aside from qualifications? For those that do, and are willing to notch up the amount of time you spend training to include a BUG, I commend your commitment, and you should be allowed a BUG. For those that don't, BUGs are a bad idea.
But then again...what do I know? 8)