Massachusetts Cop Forum banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anyone have any information on the use of dashboard cameras in relation to union bargaining? Does this constitute a change in working conditions?
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
569 Posts
I don't think it qualifies as a change in working conditions. The cams don't impact how the job is done, just documents it. The only angle I can think of (and it is a weak one) is that the union may request impact bargaining related to the use of dash cam recordings in disciplinary proceedings. All that guarantees is that the union can voice its concerns. All management has to do is bargain to impasse then implement.

For what its worth...dash cams have saved more cops butt's then fried them. Same with GPS. Both are good tools as long as they are not being used to try to stick it to the guys. I can think of many bogus complaints against me over the years where a dash cam would have been more than valuable.
 

·
Retired Fed, Active Special
Joined
·
8,693 Posts
For what its worth...dash cams have saved more cops butt's then fried them. Same with GPS. Both are good tools as long as they are not being used to try to stick it to the guys. I can think of many bogus complaints against me over the years where a dash cam would have been more than valuable.
It saved j809's butt many times too!;)
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
5,135 Posts
For what its worth...dash cams have saved more cops butt's then fried them. Same with GPS. Both are good tools as long as they are not being used to try to stick it to the guys. I can think of many bogus complaints against me over the years where a dash cam would have been more than valuable.
So we all agree that the GPS and DASHCAMS are great law enforcement tools unless you are not liked then it will be tucked up your ass.

Good point Chief...
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
All management has to do is bargain to impasse then implement.
And if the union has testicle one between their legs, they'll file for an injunction in superior court as well as file a ULP with the LRC. Good luck justifying the litigation costs for that.

Both are good tools as long as they are not being used to try to stick it to the guys.
After the first quote above, do you really expect anyone to think it WON'T be used to "stick it to the guys"?
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
5,135 Posts
All management has to do is bargain to impasse then implement.
That may work in a one horse town but I wish you luck with 300 pissed off cops. You wouldn't last.
 

·
Retired Fed, Active Special
Joined
·
8,693 Posts
That may work in a one horse town but I wish you luck with 300 pissed off cops. You wouldn't last.
Ouch!! take a pill buddy. He never said HE would do that. He's talking about possible tactics utilizing the mechanisms and practices established over time in the narrowly focused context of Police labor law which I know little about, but I'm not gonna make it cynical, critical and subjective like you...Yeesh!!!!
:rolleyes:
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
569 Posts
And if the union has testicle one between their legs, they'll file for an injunction in superior court as well as file a ULP with the LRC. Good luck justifying the litigation costs for that.

After the first quote above, do you really expect anyone to think it WON'T be used to "stick it to the guys"?
As I also stated in the post, it saves more than it fries, so if the union chooses to file an injunction and a ULP they are only hurting their own members. Why argue a tool that will provide evidence that will exonerate someone who isn't doing anything inappropriate? Rather than fight, why not work towards a solution that is in the best interest of the union?
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
As I also stated in the post, it saves more than it fries, so if the union chooses to file an injunction and a ULP they are only hurting their own members. Why argue a tool that will provide evidence that will exonerate someone who isn't doing anything inappropriate? Rather than fight, why not work towards a solution that is in the best interest of the union?
"Work" means give & take, not "bargain to impasse and then implement".

As I said during the last negotiations concerning random drug testing, they can come to my house every morning for blood, hair, urine, sweat, whatever you want.

But not for free.
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
569 Posts
That may work in a one horse town but I wish you luck with 300 pissed off cops. You wouldn't last.
Try decaf man!!!

First, I don't think I'd piss off 300. I'll give you the 20% who is always unhappy, so the number would be more like 60 pissed off cops.

Second, if what you say is valid, you have done nothing more than reinforce my desire not to take a position in a large department. If I had 300 people pissed off, I'd have some serious soul searching to do. I can tell you for sure that I would not want to stay in a place where I was hated. By definition, you are not a leader if no one is following you!

My reply was objective, as I have been both a union president and a chief. I get both sides of the coin. It is unfortunate that you have had such a bad experience with management that you are inclined to assume the worst.

"Work" means give & take, not "bargain to impasse and then implement".

As I said during the last negotiations concerning random drug testing, they can come to my house every morning for blood, hair, urine, sweat, whatever you want.

But not for free.
Unfortunately, your experience has made you draw the conclusion that I was an advocate for "bargain to impasse, then implement". I was pointing out what could happen for the benefit of the original poster. Impasse and implement does nothing but negatively impact the health of the organization. There doesn't have to be a winner and a loser, negotiation does not have to be a zero sum game. When one or both sides views it as such nobody wins.
 

·
Zombie Hunter
Joined
·
4,815 Posts
It is unfortunate that you have had such a bad experience with management that you are inclined to assume the worst.
I think most police officers have had bad experience with management...in fact, mediocre would be a definite improvement. Management serves at the whim of politicians who often influence them to implement policies that have no merit in crime-fighting, law enforcement or improving work or safety conditions. The politicians simply want to play to the press and public, not actually accomplish meaningful changes, hence the rank-and-file take a beating. Not really the circumstances that most officers want to see management given more tools to be used against them for frivolous or vindictive reasons.

Like others have said, I have nothing to hide in my work, but I better get something in exchange for a system that can be used by my superiors for both good and ill.
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
569 Posts
I think most police officers have had bad experience with management...in fact, mediocre would be a definite improvement. Management serves at the whim of politicians who often influence them to implement policies that have no merit in crime-fighting, law enforcement or improving work or safety conditions. The politicians simply want to play to the press and public, not actually accomplish meaningful changes, hence the rank-and-file take a beating. Not really the circumstances that most officers want to see management given more tools to be used against them for frivolous or vindictive reasons.

Like others have said, I have nothing to hide in my work, but I better get something in exchange for a system that can be used by my superiors for both good and ill.
I guess I have just been lucky for 18 years. While there have been, and always will be, labor/management disagreement, I've never experienced the level of mistrust that you guys talk about, and that covers three different departments. Have I been pissed at a boss, sure. Have guys been pissed at me, you bet, but we always seem to move past the disagreements and still maintain a level of trust. Maybe I just never got burned bad enough...
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
4,324 Posts
That may work in a one horse town but I wish you luck with 300 pissed off cops. You wouldn't last.
Rather work in my one horse town making way more money than NBPD pays than be a miserable prick. It must be horrible coming in to work everyday and hate the job. Cameras, GPS, etc makes you safer, yes it can be used to discipline too but the answer to that is, don't be a screw up, do the right thing and you won't have a problem. BTW, everyone wants to work in the Hidden Valley of Central Mass, don't be a hater. :D

P.S. Chief801 is a good guy, we negotiated our new contract in 2 hours. How about you guys?
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
569 Posts
Rather work in my one horse town making way more money than NBPD pays than be a miserable prick. It must be horrible coming in to work everyday and hate the job. Cameras, GPS, etc makes you safer, yes it can be used to discipline too but the answer to that is, don't be a screw up, do the right thing and you won't have a problem. BTW, everyone wants to work in the Hidden Valley of Central Mass, don't be a hater. :D

P.S. Chief801 is a good guy, we negotiated our new contract in 2 hours. How about you guys?
Don't sing my praises until your probation is up...:pinch:
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Rather work in my one horse town making way more money than NBPD pays than be a miserable prick. It must be horrible coming in to work everyday and hate the job. Cameras, GPS, etc makes you safer, yes it can be used to discipline too but the answer to that is, don't be a screw up, do the right thing and you won't have a problem.
It sounds as though you're the white tiger of law enforcement....someone who has never had the misfortune of working for a chief or other boss who is a real prick. After the first time you get it stuck up your ass sideways, you'll feel a lot differently about doing the right thing and not having a problem, believe me.

BTW, everyone wants to work in the Hidden Valley of Central Mass, don't be a hater.
Ummm....no.

P.S. Chief801 is a good guy, we negotiated our new contract in 2 hours. How about you guys?
I never said he was a bad guy (and we negotiate with the mayor), but when you spout management catch phrases like "negotiate to impasse then implement", you have to expect a visceral reaction from those of us who have had it jammed up our ass sideways. Which is about 99% of us.

Unfortunately, your experience has made you draw the conclusion that I was an advocate for "bargain to impasse, then implement". I was pointing out what could happen for the benefit of the original poster.
Fair enough, and I was pointing out what could happen from the union side. Even with the unbearable situation I was in for the last 3 years, I only took one case to superior court and two to the LRC.
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
5,135 Posts
Rather work in my one horse town making way more money than NBPD pays than be a miserable prick. It must be horrible coming in to work everyday and hate the job. Cameras, GPS, etc makes you safer, yes it can be used to discipline too but the answer to that is, don't be a screw up, do the right thing and you won't have a problem. BTW, everyone wants to work in the Hidden Valley of Central Mass, don't be a hater. :D

P.S. Chief801 is a good guy, we negotiated our new contract in 2 hours. How about you guys?
I happen to love my job.

As far as money goes, I work in a place that allows me to double your salary. (Just have to put the time in like everybody else.)

I speak from a realistic point of view. The larger the department the more conflicts both internally and externally exist.

It doesn't mean I hate my job, just means I'm more aware of the realities of it...
 

·
Subscribing Member
Joined
·
4,324 Posts
As far as money goes, I work in a place that allows me to double your salary. (Just have to put the time in like everybody else.)
I find that hard to believe, anytime you want to meet, I will give you a copy of our contract. I know what you guys make, as I have a few friends that work there, I think we pay our dispatchers that here. But we still love you brother,stay safe. 801 loves you too :D
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I find that hard to believe, anytime you want to meet, I will give you a copy of our contract. I know what you guys make, as I have a few friends that work there, I think we pay our dispatchers that here. But we still love you brother,stay safe. 801 loves you too :D
If you really want to whip it out and see who can pee further, I'll be glad to compare pay stubs anytime you like.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Since mine still says US Gov't., I'll take a pass on that!
Between no state tax, BAQ, combat pay, and all the other trinkets, I actually did pretty well the last time I was invited by Uncle Sam to leave my real job for awhile. Being single, I had no rent, utilities, etc. I accumulated quite a nest egg.

Hit me up this time next year ;) LOL!
Remember we're discussing base pay....even a <gasp> deputy sheriff can crack $100K if they'll work any detail and every detail. :p
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top