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Back Out in the Sticks
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Well maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, start thinking about taking laterals, upping the cutoff age, dump that tattoo stipulation...
State police agencies across the U.S. have this problem. They need to get it out of their heads that they are some kind of European-style gendarmarie and therefore, different and more elite than local agencies. While troopers may have their roots in being more of a military police, that's not the case today, and the fact is that their job is pretty much the same as municipal police. As a result, it's completely asinine and counterproductive to not accept veteran officers from other agencies.

I'm not saying drop the DI mentality but this hazing on day 1 and weeks to come after of "Just leave we don't need you" needs to stop. Having a cadet make garbage truck sounds while colleting trash or a cadet ware another cadets underware on his head. I just saying things changed alot when Timothy Shepard died (1989) from heat stroke and renal failure because he wasn't allowed water, now they force water down your throat. How about this they will take a 21 year old kid with absolutely no police experience that scored a 99 on the test over a cop that has been working in a major city for 10 years already has attended a MPTC academy and degree and scored a 89. But hey I guess sticking a recruits head in a toilet bowl will make them a better trooper somehow.
Agreed. This kind of shit doesn't necessarily "weed out the non-hackers"; it weeds out the people who realize that nothing is worth this shitty treatment, and a lot of the ones that do make it are left cynical, traumatized, and with a seriously unhealthy resentment, which is going to come bursting out somewhere at a bad time. Abuse is completely unnecessary. Full Metal Jacket's boot camp scenes were an amusing, but that doesn't mean Hartman's methods were the best.

You can push cadets beyond what they think they can handle while at the same time building their confidence.
 

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State police agencies across the U.S. have this problem. They need to get it out of their heads that they are some kind of European-style gendarmarie and therefore, different and more elite than local agencies. While troopers may have their roots in being more of a military police, that's not the case today, and the fact is that their job is pretty much the same as municipal police. As a result, it's completely asinine and counterproductive to not accept veteran officers from other agencies.



Agreed. This kind of shit doesn't necessarily "weed out the non-hackers"; it weeds out the people who realize that nothing is worth this shitty treatment, and a lot of the ones that do make it are left cynical, traumatized, and with a seriously unhealthy resentment, which is going to come bursting out somewhere at a bad time. Abuse is completely unnecessary. Full Metal Jacket's boot camp scenes were an amusing, but that doesn't mean Hartman's methods were the best.

You can push cadets beyond what they think they can handle while at the same time building their confidence.
I think they’ve realized this isn’t the Pre-Deval days or even Pre-Baker days anymore. They’re not nearly as tough on these “trainees” as they were back in the early 2000s or 90s. Which is a good thing because they were over the top back in the 2000s and 90s. At the end of the day we’re Law Enforcement, we’re not getting trained to go to Iraq or Yemen. There’s preparing a person for life on the road as a Trooper and then there’s just going over the top, the MSP went over the top for a long long time and for whatever reason it was accepted because they market themselves as a paramilitary type of organization. Like it or not, we’re all having to adapt to what life is like right now as an officer, patrolman, trooper, etc. The MSP needs to change their way of doing things and it starts with the academy. I can’t necessarily agree that their job is the same as municipal though, it’s a different type of policing. Where I work, my backup is anywhere from 0.25 mile to 1 mile away, for a Trooper their backup could be 15-20 miles away, so that does take a certain skillset to be able to handle yourself alone essentially on a dark empty highway at times.

I will say though, in my opinion, I don’t think the MSP is even remotely close to accepting laterals, even with the staffing problems. They believe in creating a culture from the Colonel all the way down the Troopers. It’s the same reason they don’t want a Colonel from outside the agency, they believe you need to “earn” your uniform and badge. I can understand the pride they take in that because a lot of the people saying that are the people that had to go through getting their heads stuffed in toilets and having to wear others underwear on their heads. If that was me, I probably wouldn’t want someone coming in that didn’t have to go through that either.. but that’s also part of the problem..

But they absolutely do need to understand that they’ve got some soul searching to do. They need to adapt to change like how a lot of the cities and towns in Massachusetts have adapted, they’re still in the dark ages, respectfully of course. I have a lot of respect for the Troopers I know, but even they’ll admit the agency has work to do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
79th RTT I know for a fact was 2006.
80th RTT now I know was 2012
Also the 77th, 78th, and 79th we're all taken from the same test in 2002-03ish. I received a letter for the 79th I did the interview run ect. but was deferred to the 80th due to a low score of 95. The 80th and following classes were taken off the new combined civil service local/mbta/msp exam.
 

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Also the 77th, 78th, and 79th we're all taken from the same test in 2002-03ish. I received a letter for the 79th I did the interview run ect. but was deferred to the 80th due to a low score of 95. The 80th and following classes were taken off the new combined civil service local/mbta/msp exam.
Yeah I know a few people that were in those classes. I remember one of them told me he waited 3-4 years after the exam to even get into the academy.

I think they should go back to their own exam or maybe even just change the hiring process entirely. If they’re expecting to get back to full staffing by relying on the Civil Service then they’re sorely mistaken. 10,000 people took the exam this year.. in the 90s 30,000 people took the exam and that was JUST for the MSP. Now the MSP has to compete with cities and towns and it’s a rush to get to a candidate before the other gets to them.

I mean look at how states like Texas do things. You literally just apply online, they have you come out for physicals, medicals, testing, quick background (followed by a more in depth background later) and at that point you’re already half way through the process. Unlike the MSP that drags the process out and it takes 5-6 months to even complete. And then IF you get by that, guess what? Now you’ve got 6 more months in beautiful New Braintree! There’s no getting around the academy length, they need people ready to go once they graduate obviously, but for the love of God, speed up the pre-academy process for these people.
 

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MSP............ people that had to go through getting their heads stuffed in toilets and having to wear others underwear on their heads..........
Please tell me that "getting their heads stuffed in toilets" is a metaphor, and not an actual practice that the MSP Academy staff did to Trooper cadets. I went through a 17-week "stress"-type academy here in CA in 1977, and there was nothing like that ever attempted. I must say that had that been attempted on me in the academy, there'd have been a fight .... and somebody was going to get hurt, maybe me, but certainly not just me. And frankly, anyone who would allow their head to be stuffed in a toilet without a fight, is not someone I would want to be a cop, or would want as a partner. Maybe I am missing something here; if so, please advise.
 

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Please tell me that "getting their heads stuffed in toilets" is a metaphor, and not an actual practice that the MSP Academy staff did to Trooper cadets. I went through a 17-week "stress"-type academy here in CA in 1977, and there was nothing like that ever attempted. I must say that had that been attempted on me in the academy, there'd have been a fight .... and somebody was going to get hurt, maybe me, but certainly not just me. And frankly, anyone who would allow their head to be stuffed in a toilet without a fight, is not someone I would want to be a cop, or would want as a partner. Maybe I am missing something here; if so, please advise.
No, not a metaphor at all. Look up the practices that took place during the 78th RTT and 79th RTT as well I believe. They had a lot of DI’s that got shit listed because of that. Public record, there were even some trainees that left and opened up lawsuits against the department. I agree, I’m from Dorchester, you try stuffing my head in a toilet we’re throwing hands, I don’t care if you are a DI, ain’t happening.



 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Please tell me that "getting their heads stuffed in toilets" is a metaphor, and not an actual practice that the MSP Academy staff did to Trooper cadets. I went through a 17-week "stress"-type academy here in CA in 1977, and there was nothing like that ever attempted. I must say that had that been attempted on me in the academy, there'd have been a fight .... and somebody was going to get hurt, maybe me, but certainly not just me. And frankly, anyone who would allow their head to be stuffed in a toilet without a fight, is not someone I would want to be a cop, or would want as a partner. Maybe I am missing something here; if so, please advise.
No, not a metaphor at all. Look up the practices that took place during the 78th RTT and 79th RTT as well I believe. They had a lot of DI’s that got shit listed because of that. Public record, there were even some trainees that left and opened up lawsuits against the department. I agree, I’m from Dorchester, you try stuffing my head in a toilet we’re throwing hands, I don’t care if you are a DI, ain’t happening.
Agreed, but how much do you want the job. If you square off with a DI pack your shit and leave, Its all these mind fuck things they like to do. I heard one story of trainees being marched up to the front gate and pretty much have a staff member, kind of just level with them and say something to the effect of "just leave you don't need this, its ok" another one was a trainee slipped and called a female DI "sir" she told him in a roundabout way that she is going to make sure he fails this class. He did go on to graduate. The staff shouldn't mess with a trainees sleep however I heard the fire alarm in the dorms would go off sometimes without just cause. They try to break you, but its not to build you back up as a team, nothing like the military if you go AWOL you could go to jail, at the MSP you can just leave and be shamed with your cover hanging in the mess hall. I remember checking the state's web site every day for the "count on deck" they would pride themselves on how many people quit. These tactics don't make you a better trooper or cop, all it does is satisfy sadistic cravings knowing they can get away with it.
 

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Agreed, but how much do you want the job. If you square off with a DI pack your shit and leave, Its all these mind fuck things they like to do. I heard one story of trainees being marched up to the front gate and pretty much have a staff member, kind of just level with them and say something to the effect of "just leave you don't need this, its ok"
Yeah, let them try those tactics again and see how they’re staffing situation pans out. No job is worth demeaning yourself. I’ve got a badge and I damn sure worked for it and I didn’t need my pride thrown in the trash to earn it. If I got kicked out cause I didn’t put up with that? So be it, but at least I’d be able to look myself in the mirror.

Trust me, I know the process at the State academy enough to know the days of that crap (no pun intended) are long gone. They know they can’t expect to staff adequately when they lost the Quinn bill and are treating trainees like dog shit. They push them physically and mentally still, but you don’t do the things they did. There’s no justification for that.
 

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Back Out in the Sticks
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I think they’ve realized this isn’t the Pre-Deval days or even Pre-Baker days anymore. They’re not nearly as tough on these “trainees” as they were back in the early 2000s or 90s. Which is a good thing because they were over the top back in the 2000s and 90s. At the end of the day we’re Law Enforcement, we’re not getting trained to go to Iraq or Yemen. There’s preparing a person for life on the road as a Trooper and then there’s just going over the top, the MSP went over the top for a long long time and for whatever reason it was accepted because they market themselves as a paramilitary type of organization. Like it or not, we’re all having to adapt to what life is like right now as an officer, patrolman, trooper, etc. The MSP needs to change their way of doing things and it starts with the academy. I can’t necessarily agree that their job is the same as municipal though, it’s a different type of policing. Where I work, my backup is anywhere from 0.25 mile to 1 mile away, for a Trooper their backup could be 15-20 miles away, so that does take a certain skillset to be able to handle yourself alone essentially on a dark empty highway at times.

I will say though, in my opinion, I don’t think the MSP is even remotely close to accepting laterals, even with the staffing problems. They believe in creating a culture from the Colonel all the way down the Troopers. It’s the same reason they don’t want a Colonel from outside the agency, they believe you need to “earn” your uniform and badge. I can understand the pride they take in that because a lot of the people saying that are the people that had to go through getting their heads stuffed in toilets and having to wear others underwear on their heads. If that was me, I probably wouldn’t want someone coming in that didn’t have to go through that either.. but that’s also part of the problem..

But they absolutely do need to understand that they’ve got some soul searching to do. They need to adapt to change like how a lot of the cities and towns in Massachusetts have adapted, they’re still in the dark ages, respectfully of course. I have a lot of respect for the Troopers I know, but even they’ll admit the agency has work to do.
All good points, and I mean no disrespect to troopers. Their job certainly has the nuance of requiring them to be more self-reliant and well rounded due to being more isolated and further from backup. Also, at least speaking for the state troopers here in CT, road troopers also have to do all their own investigations unless it's a major crime. Of course, the same can be said for deputies working for sheriff's offices in rural counties in other states. Many of them have the same, or greater, isolation and need for self-reliance as a trooper in the northeast, and yet in most cases, those sheriff's offices will take laterals from anywhere. The same can be said for cops in small towns in Western MA and the northern New England states. It's for that reason that I don't believe sending a veteran municipal officer through the trooper academy is necessary to prepare them for the different environment they will face as a trooper.

That being said, I can understand some of the unity aspect of not taking laterals. All trooper academies, in pretty much every state, are hard, and that builds bonds through shared hardship. I can understand that resentment will build towards guys who have street experience but maybe went through an "easier" academy. It doesn't make it right; I mean, if the lateral guy can do the job as good as a guy who went through the state academy, than nothing else matters. But that doesn't mean they won't make it matter because, well, I know how people are; everyone is always looking for a reason to add another quarter inch to his dick.

I can also understand the feeling of those who went through a tougher academy, even if the "toughness" was both unnecessary and inappropriate. But the fact is, like you said, the state needs to do some soul searching. Needless suffering does not make a person tougher and better, and just because older generations suffered doesn't mean that it was right and therefore needs to be continued. It's the same mentality of those who beat their kids because their own parents abused them
 

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All good points, and I mean no disrespect to troopers. Their job certainly has the nuance of requiring them to be more self-reliant and well rounded due to being more isolated and further from backup. Also, at least speaking for the state troopers here in CT, road troopers also have to do all their own investigations unless it's a major crime. Of course, the same can be said for deputies working for sheriff's offices in rural counties in other states. Many of them have the same, or greater, isolation and need for self-reliance as a trooper in the northeast, and yet in most cases, those sheriff's offices will take laterals from anywhere. The same can be said for cops in small towns in Western MA and the northern New England states. It's for that reason that I don't believe sending a veteran municipal officer through the trooper academy is necessary to prepare them for the different environment they will face as a trooper.

That being said, I can understand some of the unity aspect of not taking laterals. All trooper academies, in pretty much every state, are hard, and that builds bonds through shared hardship. I can understand that resentment will build towards guys who have street experience but maybe went through an "easier" academy. It doesn't make it right; I mean, if the lateral guy can do the job as good as a guy who went through the state academy, than nothing else matters. But that doesn't mean they won't make it matter because, well, I know how people are; everyone is always looking for a reason to add another quarter inch to his dick.

I can also understand the feeling of those who went through a tougher academy, even if the "toughness" was both unnecessary and inappropriate. But the fact is, like you said, the state needs to do some soul searching. Needless suffering does not make a person tougher and better, and just because older generations suffered doesn't mean that it was right and therefore needs to be continued. It's the same mentality of those who beat their kids because their own parents abused them
Well said and an accurate analogy
 

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Agreed, but how much do you want the job. If you square off with a DI pack your shit and leave, Its all these mind fuck things they like to do.
There's a difference between mind-fuck games and physically grabbing someone and trying to stick their head in a toilet. The academy I went through here on the Left Coast in 1977 (I think we are the 4th or 5th largest non-Fed LE agency in the US) had plenty of stress, hazing and mind-fuck games, and we graduated only a bit more than 50% of those that were there on Day 1. But no DI ever put his hands on (assaulted) a cadet/trainee that I am aware of. I don't give a sheet who you are ...... DI or not ...... you try that with me, and the fight's on. (And I am not even from Dorchester.) Ask yourself this: If someone tried to stuff someone's head in a toilet - as a prank, or as part of some odd Departmental "culture"/norm - and they went along with it without a fight, would you really want that person for a partner? I am actually surprised that any DI's would have any respect for a Cadet who didn't put up a fight when someone tried to stuff their head in a toilet. If I was a supervisor or administrator of an Academy class, I'd be inclined to toss out the cadet who didn't fight back when faced with this kind of treatment, as being too timid to be a cop...... and I would keep the cadet who actually put up a fight, in order to avoid gargling with eau d'toilette.
 

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There's a difference between mind-fuck games and physically grabbing someone and trying to stick their head in a toilet. The academy I went through here on the Left Coast in 1977 (I think we are the 4th or 5th largest non-Fed LE agency in the US) had plenty of stress, hazing and mind-fuck games, and we graduated only a bit more than 50% of those that were there on Day 1. But no DI ever put his hands on (assaulted) a cadet/trainee that I am aware of. I don't give a sheet who you are ...... DI or not ...... you try that with me, and the fight's on. (And I am not even from Dorchester.) Ask yourself this: If someone tried to stuff someone's head in a toilet - as a prank, or as part of some odd Departmental "culture"/norm - and they went along with it without a fight, would you really want that person for a partner? I am actually surprised that any DI's would have any respect for a Cadet who didn't put up a fight when someone tried to stuff their head in a toilet. If I was a supervisor or administrator of an Academy class, I'd be inclined to toss out the cadet who didn't fight back when faced with this kind of treatment, as being too timid to be a cop...... and I would keep the cadet who actually put up a fight, in order to avoid gargling with eau d'toilette.
And make sure that DI is in the mountains of the berkshires the rest of his career. My academy and the instructors we had were tough bastards but they were professional, got me as ready and everyone else in there as they possibly could be without real experience on the street.

This thread got a little off topic, but I’ll end my two cents with this. MSP has to evolve in many ways, starts with the hiring process and the length it takes, the academy needs to be all business (which to be fair nowadays I think it is for the most part).
 

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I took two Civil Service tests and one Mass Statie test back in the 80s. Scored 99 on both CS tests but apparently that wasn't high enough. I received a card saying I scored well but "not high enough" to be considered for the Statie Academy. They say everything happens for a reason. Maybe I didn't get on back there because I was "supposed" to get on out here in Los Angeles, who knows!

I'm in agreement with MSW. I went through the LAPD Academy back in the late 80s and while it was certainly tough, we didn't do anything related to the toilet thing. Professionalism and respect have to come into play, even in the academy. We should be priding ourselves on getting as many people as possible to pass the academy, not fail the academy... just as long as they are competent and safe of course. We all need the help on the streets. Failing people out of the academy because they won't put up with foolishness like the toilet thing or any of the other ridiculous stories is uncalled for.

Our job is tough enough with the public and politicians treating us they way they do, we certainly don't need our own people doing it to us too.
 

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On a related note of interest, the trooper driving unit#3022 held the door at Dunkin for me today in a professional and courteous manner, in spite of the fact I was obviously a fat old municipal guy in detail uniform. He was smiling and we exchanged "be safe". I hope he stays around!!!
 

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On a related note of interest, the trooper driving unit#3022 held the door at Dunkin for me today in a professional and courteous manner, in spite of the fact I was obviously a fat old municipal guy in detail uniform. He was smiling and we exchanged "be safe". I hope he stays around!!!
Saw a Norfolk County Sheriff on a construction detail on Route 3 today.. never saw that before. They’re not kidding about being short staffed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
The msp have clalled my department several times looking for detail officers to cover night road jobs on 495, route 2 and 290.
 

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They reassigned 45 troopers out of the 2,200 they have. Big deal, this is just a political ploy for more funding by SPAM and MSP leadership. This state doesn't need as many troopers as we currently have.
 

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They reassigned 45 troopers out of the 2,200 they have. Big deal, this is just a political ploy for more funding by SPAM and MSP leadership. This state doesn't need as many troopers as we currently have.
No it is, the troopers they’re reassigning aren’t DFS Troopers (field services) they’re detectives with assignments the DAs offices and even the Attorney General. They’ve already bought more Troopers out this year than any year in the past. They’re expected spend over $11 million in buyouts, previous high was last year at $6 million. Over 10% of the department is anticipated to retire this year, that’s a problem.
 

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The msp have clalled my department several times looking for detail officers to cover night road jobs on 495, route 2 and 290.
Maybe they'll call my department too! I'll be back there on vacation starting next week. Maybe I could do a few details while I'm there. I've never done one but I'm happy to help out while I'm there!
 
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