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Air Marshall kills passenger

(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: Barbrady

Can't blame him. In this day and age, you make a threat like that they should shoot you first and double tap later. With terrorism nowadays we don't have the patience to check if the threat was genuine or not. If your having a bad day and make threats then feel free to pay the price, an eternal dirt knap.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10367598/


Posted by: thelastsamurai

I have mix feelings about it. It says on the media feed that the guy is suffering from bipolar and that his wife was following him saying that he is bipolar and was trying to stop him from doing harm. If I was in this position, I would try to disable the threat without killing him. After all this, you know this lady will be cooking up a lawsuit.


Posted by: MSPField

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastsamurai
I have mix feelings about it. It says on the media feed that the guy is suffering from bipolar and that his wife was following him saying that he is bipolar and was trying to stop him from doing harm. If I was in this position, I would try to disable the threat without killing him. After all this, you know this lady will be cooking up a lawsuit.
Since I'm sure you have had a lot more time then he did to think about it, I doubt you really know what you would have done in his position. Save the second guessing for the civil attorneys. He did what he was trained to do.


Posted by: ponyboy

Too F-ing bad he should of been taking his meds. We can't play Monday morning QB. The Marshall did his Job and should be commended.


Posted by: LenS

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastsamurai
I have mix feelings about it. It says on the media feed that the guy is suffering from bipolar and that his wife was following him saying that he is bipolar and was trying to stop him from doing harm. If I was in this position, I would try to disable the threat without killing him. After all this, you know this lady will be cooking up a lawsuit.
The Air Marshals did their job and they did it well! They did disable him, the ONLY SAFE WAY . . . you have to shut down the computer, INSTANTLY . . . anything else and you risk a lot of lives. Even a shot thru the heart will allow the "dead person" to continue their mission for ~15 seconds, long enough to detonate an explosive device!

BTW, did you ever think that a terrorist might use this ploy to throw the AIr Marshals off guard? Man with bomb running down aisle and woman running behind saying "no problem, he's just off his meds"!! Remember the terrorists are NOT "some dumb cons" they are very bright, and savvy on what will pull on American heartstrings just long enough to do their dirty deeds. They are demented, but not stupid.

I say give the Air Marshals a medal for heroism!


Posted by: OciferpeteHPD3500

Not to mention that a terrorist will have some one do this so they can see who the air marshall is. Then they might gang up on him and take his weapon when dealing with this. So many things could of gone wrong, but this air marshall did make the wise decision.


Posted by: MSP75

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastsamurai
I have mix feelings about it. It says on the media feed that the guy is suffering from bipolar and that his wife was following him saying that he is bipolar and was trying to stop him from doing harm. If I was in this position, I would try to disable the threat without killing him. After all this, you know this lady will be cooking up a lawsuit.
Problem: person stating he has a bomb and not following LEO's orders

Only Solution: rounds down range

If this agent (who did the right thing) is second guessed and his life is turned upside down, then when the next a-hole really does have a bomb and an agent hesistates - KABOOM!!!!

Only someone who has never dealt with high stress decision making would second guess. So what does that say about you thelastsamurai?


Posted by: frank

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastsamurai
I have mix feelings about it. It says on the media feed that the guy is suffering from bipolar and that his wife was following him saying that he is bipolar and was trying to stop him from doing harm. If I was in this position, I would try to disable the threat without killing him. After all this, you know this lady will be cooking up a lawsuit.
How do you disable a guy holding an (alleged) bomb?

The way I see it, he was threatening to use lethal force...it's nice to 'disable' someone, but in the end, it certainly seems that he had to do what he had to do, and lethal force gets met with lethal force.


Posted by: Channy1984

Sorry for the guy and his wife, but at the same time... How the hell is the Air Marshall supposed to know that was the case. He made a legit decision that's justifiable. You yell out that you have a bomb in a duffel bag and reach into it as if you are trying to detonate an IED then expect things like this to happen whether you're mentally disabled or not.


Posted by: Se7en

Wife: "Sir he's off his meds and he's bipolar".
Marshall: Oh "snap!" "He's just fawked in the head, thanks mam I was about to disable him".

The marshall did the what he had to do considering the circumstances, he took the threat out. Good Job.


Posted by: thelastsamurai

I'm totally agreeing that the marshall had no choice and did the right thing by taking the suspect down..

but the point was... that this guy died from it... that in the long run... that this will be a media publicity... and that this will end up being in court by his wife that she is suing for his death... and also saying that she warned everyone in the plane that he was bipolar as she tried to stop him. if he didn't die, it would have been a different ending. But oh well, its just another soap opera.


Posted by: Wolfman

Who gives a rats ass what the media thinks? Maybe his wife should have made sure he was taking his meds before stuffing him into an airplane, she should also be able to recognize the symptoms of an episode well in advance of the point where he's barging down the aisle screaming that he has a bomb. Sure, she will sue, but she bears just as much responsibility - if not more.

So what if she "warned" that he was bipolar. By the time she sounded off it was too late. According to cell phone calls from the doomed occupants of the 9/11 flights, the terrorists were assuring everyone on the planes that they would not be harmed if they remained still and quiet - bet a couple of well placed shots would have been welcome then.

And how exactly would you suggest "disabling" him? Shoot the knapsack out of his hand? Shoot him in the leg? A swift and deft Hong Kong Phooey chop? Someone's been watching way too much TJ Hooker.




Posted by: dcs2244

Wolfie, you beat me to it! Since she knew he was off his meds and did nothing to warn anyone (before he 'went nuts'), I suggest that the Marshal "beat her to the punch" and file a lawsuit against the wife!!!!!! Her failure to act forced him to take a human life...'mental anguish' and all that...

Who is responsible for the guys death? The Wife. period.

Bipolar: another way to say "I'm not responsible/accountable for the stuff I do.".


Posted by: j809

What if he had a bomb and Air Marshal bought the wife's statements about being bi-polar. He detonated the bomb and 150 people would have been dead. One less nut in the world.


Posted by: mpd61

I can't Believe this crap I'm hearing.

I'm behind the actions of the Marshall's 105%. Bottom line is a guy is running around very agitated and animated in a crowded public setting stating loudly he has a bomb, and then fails to follow LEO instructions and reaches into his bag?

Maybe they should have waited and kept shouting multiple instructions like the officer in Georgia who pulled over the disturbed veteran with a rifle?
PAHLEEZE!!!!!!

STFU!!!!!!!!



Posted by: susychpstk

That woman, knowing full well that her husband was off his Bipolar meds, had absolutely NO BUSINESS allowing him on an aircraft to begin with. What is it with these manic/depressives wanting off their medications? They all flip out without being medicated...and make bomb threats, or drown their kids, or kill their family off.......in the good ol' days, these people were institutionalized for life, without the fear of them putting anyone at harm but perhaps a mental health care worker, or another fruitcake.

As far as the Air Marshall.....he SHOULD be commended for a job well-done, but sadly, with all the bleeding-heart liberals out there, (lawyers included), he will most likely be ridiculed, chastised, and demoted or fired for "not disabling" him. You gotta love how others who have no experience in the field, can tell law enforcement how to do their jobs.......unbelievable.

To those who feel the Air Marshall didn't "disable" the nut-job......errr....the mentally impaired man.....let me add that he was "disabled" alright....in the conservative sense of the word.

Have a good one..

Susan


Posted by: RPD931

I agree with the way the threat was "disabled". There are too many lives at stake to try to play nice in such a situation. The only way to eliminate the threat is to 'eliminate the threat'. Second guessing could have resulted in 119+ deaths. Until Superman arrives from Krypton with his X-ray vision, I'll support the current method used.


Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPD931
I agree with the way the threat was "disabled". There are too many lives at stake to try to play nice in such a situation. The only way to eliminate the threat is to 'eliminate the threat'. Second guessing could have resulted in 119+ deaths. Until Superman arrives from Krypton with his X-ray vision, I'll support the current method used.
Superman is on his way??


Posted by: kwflatbed

Today Show:

http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=71...1a6ccb2&f=copy


Posted by: DeputyFife

The Air Marshall definately did the right thing. I'm sure, however, and it is sad to say that, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) will be contacting the wife to go after the TSA, Air Marshall(s) or both.


Posted by: BartA1

I am behind the Air Marshall completely he didnt hesitate did exactly what he was supposed to do. Neutralized threat, and protected passengers on the plane. the TSA should give him a medal.


Posted by: stubrie

interesting to see the folks on the msp weigh in on this one. (hot topic)
Do any of you know the agency and it's progression?
Well, they have gotten the "short" end of the "law enforcement officer schtick" (not the real deal... etc....)
"Thier academy is not even close to the high level academy of the msp."
But yet they did the right thing under an extreme amount of pressure, with the training given them.
They train hard and specific, and do it right....the federal way.
Everyone on here thinks they did the right thing, which transends to their training.
That is the worst case senario and they did the right thing, thier admin has already posted such on other sites......
I't's great to see the positive posts with such negative bs those boys have dealt with.
There is more than one way to skin a cat folks......


Posted by: MSP75

Quote:
Originally Posted by stubrie
interesting to see the folks on the msp weigh in on this one. (hot topic)
Do any of you know the agency and it's progression?
Well, they have gotten the "short" end of the "law enforcement officer schtick" (not the real deal... etc....)
"Thier academy is not even close to the high level academy of the msp."
But yet they did the right thing under an extreme amount of pressure, with the training given them.
They train hard and specific, and do it right....the federal way.
Everyone on here thinks they did the right thing, which transends to their training.
That is the worst case senario and they did the right thing, thier admin has already posted such on other sites......
I't's great to see the positive posts with such negative bs those boys have dealt with.
There is more than one way to skin a cat folks......

Showing support for one agency in crisis and crapping on another at the same time. Typical.


Posted by: badogg88

This may be a little bit off the topic, but generally people with bipolar disorder don't run down an aisle of a plane and say that they have a bomb. They're more introverted, and they are depressed, quiet, and lack energy. A manic episode gives them more energy, but they aren't suicidal during a manic episode. I kind of think there's something else going on there...


Posted by: Bene_G

Quote:
Originally Posted by badogg88
This may be a little bit off the topic, but generally people with bipolar disorder don't run down an aisle of a plane and say that they have a bomb. They're more introverted, and they are depressed, quiet, and lack energy. A manic episode gives them more energy, but they aren't suicidal during a manic episode. I kind of think there's something else going on there...
It depends on the person. I've done about 7 years now as a mental health CNA now, and from experience I can tell you there's a wide range of symptoms. Some severe bipolars experience almost the same symptoms as schizophrenics (hearing voices, self mutilation, etc.) Most bi-polars are known to be in constant legal trouble from being over aggressive physically, as well.

IMHO it looks like this man was having a psychotic episode that resulted from stopping his medication. From what I have read, he was fighting with his wife before exiting the plane. I get the feeling that he was in such a disordered mental state from both being off the meds, and arguing with the wife, that this could be labeled a suicide by Marshal.

In spite of my sympathy and compassion for the mentally ill, I agree that this man was a threat that needed to be neutralized. I completely back the Marshal on this one, and it's too bad he's going to go through hell over the lawsuits and investigations to follow.


Posted by: susychpstk

Quote:
Originally Posted by badogg88
This may be a little bit off the topic, but generally people with bipolar disorder don't run down an aisle of a plane and say that they have a bomb. They're more introverted, and they are depressed, quiet, and lack energy. A manic episode gives them more energy, but they aren't suicidal during a manic episode. I kind of think there's something else going on there...
With all due respect, I beg to differ with you on this one. As while it's true that a person with bipolar can be withdrawn, introverted, depressed, quiet, and lack energy, this occurs during his depressive state. When the mania kicks in, they tend to be irrational, demonstrating erratic behaviors, behaving wildly, irresponsibly, engaging in dangerous activities. Was this guy verbalizing that he was suicidal (I may have overlooked that in the articles)? I'd agree with you that thoughts of suicide during manic episodes are rare, as they tend to be euphoric, and at the top of their game at these times...thinking that they can accomplish anything, and are very productive usually....although to the extreme.

I'd have to classify BOMB THROWING ON THE TARMAC an engagement in dangerous, wild, erratic activity....especially in this day and age. Mania at it's best!


Posted by: badogg88

I was going to say that it seemed more schizophrenic than bipolar-ish. I was just throwing something out there...


Posted by: dcs2244

Warning: Stubrie may be off his meds...


Posted by: Clouseau

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
How do you disable a guy holding an (alleged) bomb?
With a head shot!


Posted by: CJIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouseau
With a head shot!
True and untrue... What if it is a remote triggered bomb, triggered by terrorist number 2?
By the way I am not disagreeing with the Marshall's decision, (I think it was the right one) I am just bringing up the what if.


Posted by: Clouseau

Quote:
Originally Posted by npd_323
True and untrue... What if it is a remote triggered bomb, triggered by terrorist number 2?
NPD, the question was "How do you disable a guy holding an alleged bomb?" Not disabling the bomb it self.


Posted by: JoninNH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouseau
NPD, the question was "How do you disable a guy holding an alleged bomb?" Not disabling the bomb it self.
If the bomb was triggered by a second terrorist, then shooting the first terrorist stopped the movement of the device, assuming the terrorists didn't want the device to go off where he was shot, and the threat negated. There are way too many ways to play Monday Morning Quarterback here... what if he was a deversion, and another terrorist was on the plane waiting to hijack it? I, personally, am not going to second guess a highly trained Air Marshal who did his job. He did nothing wrong. If I were to second guess anyone, it would be this guy's wife for allowing him on the damn plane to beging with if he was off his meds!


Posted by: MSP75

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank
How do you disable a guy holding an (alleged) bomb?
You can take the bomb out of the equation by doing the un-PC thing. Use common sense and intel. These two together with proper profiling. An 81 year old Portuguese women with a pair of Rosary beads most likey will not be loaded with explosives around her waist. An Arab with a oneway ticket, and passport stamps from Yemen, Iran, etc may need an extra look. To be a little fair, I would check an Irishman with passport stamps from Sudan and other non-tourists sites. The splinter groups of the IRA are not gone yet.


Posted by: CJIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouseau
NPD, the question was "How do you disable a guy holding an alleged bomb?" Not disabling the bomb it self.
I know it was. However I wasn’t really thinking about that. I was just thinking wouldn't the triggerman be more pissed off now that the partner is dead? I guess you could say I am thinking Pre 9/11. Before then, most hijacking goals had nothing to do with killing people aboard the plane unless demands were not met. Back then it had more to do with getting a free ride, or getting persons of “political belief” out of persecution/jail. For the most part the goal was that everyone made it out alive without any prosecution of those responsable. I was thinking one of theses scenarios since the man that was shot a few days ago was not of what we would typically think as a post 9/11 terrorist.

Anyway I still think The Marshall did the right thing… I just sometimes wonder about “The What Ifs” is all?


Posted by: stubrie

Better meds than a full frontal lobotamy.
When I need viagra dcs i'll let you know....You can send me a coupon.




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