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Main Page State Police Hazing Probed
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Posted by: fscpd907

State Police hazing probed
By Michele McPhee and Maggie Mulvihill / Boston Herald
Thursday, September 15, 2005

A Massachusetts State Police instructor is under investigation for allegedly forcing recruits' heads into dirty toilets in a hazing ritual that was kept under wraps until a female major complained to top brass, sources said.
"The instructor put his boot on the backs of their heads," said one source. "People complained, but their complaints were never taken seriously."
Lt. Sharon Costine, a state police spokeswoman, confirmed yesterday that the internal probe is underway but declined to elaborate.
"We will conduct a full and thorough investigation and take whatever action is deemed warranted," Costine said in a written statement.
The alleged hazing took place at the state police academy in New Braintree, where 174 aspiring troopers have been training since late June. A number of recruits already have dropped out of the grueling 25-week program, one trooper said. The remaining trainees are due to graduate in December.
Academy rules prohibit officers from using "unprofessional language or behavior."

Posted by: NH Cop

WOW, I was lucky I only had to stand in a cold water shower.

Posted by: bbelichick

In 1995, a state appeals court judge ruled the state's anti-hazing law did not apply to the academy, after one recruit filed a lawsuit claiming she was denied water and medication during a serious bout with pneumonia while training at the academy.
``I went through absolute torture,'' Carol Perkins, 47, of Sterling said yesterday. ``It gets barbaric in there.'

Perkins, a single mother of two small boys, said she did not appeal the decision because the litigation grew too expensive, but she feared if she stayed in the punishing program, she would end up dead.
``I was so scared. It was like, `What am I in for?' '' she said. ``I often wonder what would have happened, but I feared what happened in Agawam and how far that kid was pushed.''
Cadet Timothy Shepard, 25, died in November 1988, six weeks after collapsing from heat stroke during training at a state police training academy in Agawam.
Fifteen other cadets in the same class suffered severe kidney ailments, and state police banned punitive exercise during training. After a lengthy probe, then Attorney General James M. Shannon declined to file criminal charges against instructors at Agawam, though he labeled the episode ``state government at its worst.''

================================================== ========================

I never saw ANY of that crap going on, and believe me I would know. You can't live in close quarters with people and not know.

As far as the female who says it was "hell" and she thought she would die, etc...What a WEAK, OVERDRAMATIC LOSER. It's a good thing she didn't get on the job. As hard as it was, I never felt like I would die. Challenging, tough, etc...but "fearing she would end up dead?"or "barbaric" RIDICULOUS.

Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

I would certainly take a swift boot in the ass, as well as a little "swirly" action to get on the job...

Isn't a little psychological conditioning the type of stuff that is needed to determine who is going to make it, and who's not... I think it was you, BBelichick, who once posted that the "tough" training is essential to teach someone the necessary survival skills that is sometimes required on the job... i.e. there was some discussion on this board, I believe under the SPA sub-forum that got deleted during the vBulletin switch, regarding a confrontation between a Trooper, and a drunken 300lb redneck, and the point of the post was that the Trooper won, whether it was because of conditioning, superior defense tactics, or simply a "NO QUIT" attitude. Isn't that the kind of mentality that we want from those that protect us??

I personally, would certainly want a Trooper on the road who can withstand a drill instructor putting their head in a john, only because I know that they have the MENTAL TOUGHNESS to provide the necessary protection that is required in the Commonwealth.

Just my two cents...

Posted by: Ptlm.Shamrock147

My neighbor is a State Trooper and hes also an Instuctor at the SPA. Everyone who does their homework before they go in knows its pretty much Parris Island for close to 6 months. Massachusetts has a rep. to be one of toughest academys in the country. If you can't take a hazing, how the hell are you gonna act when the 3 guys you just pulled over decide they don't want to go back to jail, and want to fight with you. Kind of pisses me off to see people that lady get the shot at MSP and complain and the 10000 others who would be awesome troopers home checking the mail box everyday to see if the the letter arrived. And yes I check the mailbox EVERYDAY, right after my few miles of running... just in case.........Sorry if I offended anyone... just my thoughts.

Posted by: bbelichick

I agree with pushing people to their physical and mental limits...But abusing people isn't necessary.

If this is a true story, the DI who did it is a selfish jerk.

IF being the operative word.

Posted by: jackryan

That will be the day.... someone puts their boot on the back of my head and tries to force my head into a dirty toilet...trooper or no trooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by fscpd907

State Police hazing probed
By Michele McPhee and Maggie Mulvihill / Boston Herald
Thursday, September 15, 2005

A Massachusetts State Police instructor is under investigation for allegedly forcing recruits' heads into dirty toilets in a hazing ritual that was kept under wraps until a female major complained to top brass, sources said.
"The instructor put his boot on the backs of their heads," said one source. "People complained, but their complaints were never taken seriously."
Lt. Sharon Costine, a state police spokeswoman, confirmed yesterday that the internal probe is underway but declined to elaborate.
"We will conduct a full and thorough investigation and take whatever action is deemed warranted," Costine said in a written statement.
The alleged hazing took place at the state police academy in New Braintree, where 174 aspiring troopers have been training since late June. A number of recruits already have dropped out of the grueling 25-week program, one trooper said. The remaining trainees are due to graduate in December.
Academy rules prohibit officers from using "unprofessional language or behavior."

Posted by: stubrie

Killjoy-

Maybe you can fill us all in on what happened.
This may be a bad situation for those involved.
Is there a criminal statute for this ??
Sued individually??
This of course if proven to be true.
I wonder if this has happened before.....and more people make allegations.....

Posted by: popo

It was just a matter of time before this was going to come out. Here you have an Academy in the middle of nowhere, with no supervision and bunch of young troopers that were once violated too and so the chain of violence just gets passed on. It is the same thing that happens to most sex offenders, raped when they were young and now preying on the young themselves. I hope they have inspectors from outside the MSP overseeing and videotaping the whole academy.

Posted by: bbelichick

You are a MORON. "No supervision"? Have you been there? There are Brass EVERYWHERE.

This kind of thing happens everywhere. It will be dealt with. It wasn't an institutional thing, I know people in the last 6 classes and I haven't heard anything like this.

Posted by: nirtallica

Quote:

Originally Posted by popo

It was just a matter of time before this was going to come out. Here you have an Academy in the middle of nowhere, with no supervision and bunch of young troopers that were once violated too and so the chain of violence just gets passed on. It is the same thing that happens to most sex offenders, raped when they were young and now preying on the young themselves. I hope they have inspectors from outside the MSP overseeing and videotaping the whole academy.

Do you have some seriuous issues or what? I think you need some serious counseling.

Posted by: popo

Quote:

This kind of thing happens everywhere

I don't remember anyone putting their boot on my back and pushing my head in a dirty toilet at the MPOC academy or Parris Island. Maybe that's the new curriculum now.

I knew it would stir the pot but seriously, maybe it's time to have some prior military people as DIs there and not some kid that went through an RTT 2 classes ago and after attending a 40hr DI class, he's the shit. It takes years of constant training as a DI to make a good DI. I

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by popo

And like I said, no one EVER did anything like that to me either. That doesn't mean it never happened at Parris Island or the MPOC. And I am quite sure that you don't know the military background of the DI's.

Posted by: MSP75

Hazing is not common place at the SPA. Yea, it is tough mentally and physically, but nothing to get Amnesty International up in a fuss about. If one DI screwed up, and the incident turns out to be true, then that ONE DI will be dealt with. Any organization/institution will have one or two crazy apples. The problem here is that every anti-police liberal and any mentally weak trainee that quit will want to punish the MSP and use this as an excuse. They will try to make the SPA a liberal cake walk and try to further water down the toughness of the State Police.

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by popo

It is the same thing that happens to most sex offenders, raped when they were young and now preying on the young themselves.

Soooooo....are you saying SPA DIs are the same as rapists? That's pretty ignorant.

It must have been a slow day in Iraq (only a few hundred died) and the hurricane victims aren't the top story any more either, for this to be front page news. It's easy to find a few QUITTERS from previous classes and interview them to emelish the story more and more.

Posted by: ponyboy

A boot on the back of someones head into a toilet is a bit much,but if it was me I would honestly take it,however I would make a mental note of the name of the DI and as soon as I graduated and made it through my probation said DI would be getting a visit from me.

Posted by: nirtallica

Well 79th RTT, get ready for an "kindler and gentiler" academy once the weak, liberal SP hating reps and senators start looking into this.

Posted by: Ptlm.Shamrock147

I was thinking the exact same thing.....

Posted by: CenterMass

The SPA is suppose to be like Vegas - What happens there, stays there...

Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by CenterMass

The SPA is suppose to be like Vegas - What happens there, stays there...

Well put!!

Thinking about a "kinder and gentler" academy, though it would be easier... I can't say that's what I would want to go through... I want the same blood sweat and tears academy that every other Trooper had to go through... pay my dues the exact same way... call me crazy but that only seems fair...

Posted by: nirtallica

If anybody read the Herald article this morning you will recall a "Boston Special Police Officer" being interviewed, bashing the SPA. This person had two bites at the apple. He quit 1 day into the 77th and 2 days into the 78th. If he thought it was "abusive" why did he come back a second time? Plain and simple:he couldn't hack it and now he is trying to convince himself and others that it is the abusive environment that made him leave. Maybe if it was Never Neverland, would he have made it through then? Boston SPO, take a look in the mirror and tell me what you see then.

Posted by: KozmoKramer

Nirt - how the hell did he get a second shot after quitting once prior?

Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by KozmoKramer

Nirt - how the hell did he get a second shot after quitting once prior?

Yeah no shit?? How is that fair?? If you drop out of the first one... shouldn't you not be allowed to go back until you take another test?? Here's another asshole taking up places that he doesn't deserve to be in...

Posted by: JoninNH

Quote:

Originally Posted by popo

Comparing MA State Police to sex offenders and rapists? That's way over the fucking line, Popo.

No supervision? Ahh, so a SP Major making the complaint... I guess it must have been a really low ranking Major then huh?

Who would you have "overseeing" the academy? The Ayer Brownie Troop 69?! The Massachusetts Constables Association?! I think MSP can monitor itself, no additional oversight needed. This isn't a day camp. They don't give the shields away.

The MSP is a nationally renowned police academy, and IF and that's a huge friggin' IF, this happened, I am sure the DI involved will be approprietly counseled. But if this turns out to be a recruit who wants to get back at his DI, then I want to be there when the recruit gets tossed out on his ass.

I agree with CenterMass... unless it causes permanent injury, keep your mouth shut.

If you want to go share a cheese wheel with someone from IA because your DI was mean to you, you might think twice about putting on that uniform.

Posted by: bbelichick

This was one isolated incident. The rest of the quotes from previous classes are all "piling on"...Shaving cream? Fruit? Some female complaining about the PT? All whiney losers. The guy who did the boot thing will be taken care of. The rest are just thinking $$$.

Posted by: nirtallica

Quote:

Originally Posted by KozmoKramer

Nirt - how the hell did he get a second shot after quitting once prior?

At the time, the SP were giving deferments the first few days to those who felt they were "unprepared"and needed more time. They could come back to the 78th, provided they passed all the requirements. When they come back to the academy, the DIs target them just to see if they came back prepared.

Posted by: HOTLUNCH

Ive pulled over many guys that didnt want to go to jail (come to think of it, NONE of them wanted to go) and mental toughness, confidence, bearing etc all help get the guy in cuffs.
My personal opinion is that the above characteristics are either innate or they arent there at all...and cannot be taught. That being said I dont see how a boot on the neck or a head in the toilet instills the survival skills necessary to accomplish the task but if its part of the process of achieving one's goal of being a Trooper, Marine, Police Officer, Fireman, Garbage Man etc ...then shut your probationary ass up and hold your breath or quit. No blood no foul.
However, whomever this recruit is who decided to rat out this instructor out is exactly that; a RAT. Rats cannot be trusted, so why would we assume its true just because a rat said so. I doubt it even happened the way described...just my opinion.

Posted by: MallPolice

Quote:

Originally Posted by popo

Hey PooPoo, how many hours did you last before you quit?

Posted by: SinePari

The 77th will be the LAST great class of New Braintree, and the WORLD FAMOUS SPA. There were dozens of agencies from the US and other countries, that came to visit the SPA to learn and model their training similar to the MSP way of doing things.

If you can't giggle to yourself (silently of course) during all of that nonsense, then you're the one they're targeting. If you take things personally, then you don't belong. If you're a complete fuck-up, then you'll have crosshairs on your chest for 25 weeks and you either take it, or pack it up.

Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

That's exactly what I hope DOES NOT happen... I hope to God this goes completely unfounded.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by SinePari

The 77th will be the LAST great class of New Braintree, and the WORLD FAMOUS SPA.

Just a biased but undeniable fact: The World Famous SPA began in 1921 and ended after 67 years in Framingham. It produced 69 Recruit Training Troops.

New Braintree has produced 8 since 1992.

Posted by: dcs2244

Ooh-Rah! The 69th, the "last class"...or "final class".

The whining is typical of Generation X/Y/Why?. My local DI was a Vet of Iwo...my SP DI put five (5) classes through The Island. There were no "swirlies" or abuse...there was only discipline...sure, you were messed with...but it wasn't demeaning.

Suck it up, cry-babies...if you can't take it from your own (local or state)...you can't do the job. Period.

Get out...the job is not yours...perhaps you could counsel a scumbag and feel all warm inside...hey, whatever floats your boat...but a police job is not it!

Posted by: Clouseau

Guys, get used to it, it's over. This is the new millennium. The age of being politically correct. No more yelling, hurting feelings. No more having to hit the target or raise your pulse rate. It started when the Woodstock era mothers were calling and complaining down at Parris Island back in 84.

They've taken God out of the courts and the classroom.
They've destroyed the sanctity of marriage {gay weddings}.
They rally against the police and military.
The president of the country tells the world that oral sex isn't sex.
{Look at the latest poll for kids 11-15yoa having oral sex}.
The first lady spitting down on NYPD. {HIllary}
Don't use force/pepper balls to disperse a riot and stop an attack.
Fill out forms about the race of the person you stopped.
Stop harassing and searching my child. Give him his crack back.
Stop searching airline passengers.
Stop asking for a new contract, you're already overpaid.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
You're not acting PC.

How long did you think it would last?
Soon they will be giving academy certification online.
It's over boys, you're the last of the Mohicans!

Posted by: stubrie

:bnana:

Posted by: FRPDConstable

This is a tough academy and nobody knows what truly happens except those behind the doors. If I was in the academy I would just keep my mouth shut and deal with it.. We will see what happens with the investigation.

Posted by: BattleSignsUSMC

This, my friend, is the smallest violin in the world...and it plays 'my heart pumps piss for you, recruit!!' For the record I have served with the USMC and believe to appreciate anything in life you have to buy it first (with blood, sweat and tears) [crybaby!!] . Stand by your country and your state. We should stop NOT believing in our system and begin weeding out those who do not believe in US! M.S. Troopers are and will continue to be (USMCTrooper/sinepari) the most qualified individuals serving the commonwealth. The academy is the true test. Shame on those who sky-line anyone, in bad light, of building a stronger community.

Posted by: HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ptlm.Shamrock147

My neighbor is a State Trooper and hes also an Instuctor at the SPA. Everyone who does their homework before they go in knows its pretty much Parris Island for close to 6 months. Massachusetts has a rep. to be one of toughest academys in the country. If you can't take a hazing, how the hell are you gonna act when the 3 guys you just pulled over decide they don't want to go back to jail, and want to fight with you. Kind of pisses me off to see people that lady get the shot at MSP and complain and the 10000 others who would be awesome troopers home checking the mail box everyday to see if the the letter arrived. And yes I check the mailbox EVERYDAY, right after my few miles of running... just in case.........Sorry if I offended anyone... just my thoughts.

While we both agree that our troopers need to be trained to handle themselves in life threatening conditions, hazing such as shoving a recruits head down a dirty toilet, does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to make you a stronger trooper. That time could be better spent on defensive tactics which is what REALLY saves lives. Having said that, best of luck to you & hope you make it.

Posted by: HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pvt. Cowboy

I would certainly take a swift boot in the ass, as well as a little "swirly" action to get on the job...

Isn't a little psychological conditioning the type of stuff that is needed to determine who is going to make it, and who's not... I think it was you, BBelichick, who once posted that the "tough" training is essential to teach someone the necessary survival skills that is sometimes required on the job... i.e. there was some discussion on this board, I believe under the SPA sub-forum that got deleted during the vBulletin switch, regarding a confrontation between a Trooper, and a drunken 300lb redneck, and the point of the post was that the Trooper won, whether it was because of conditioning, superior defense tactics, or simply a "NO QUIT" attitude. Isn't that the kind of mentality that we want from those that protect us??

I personally, would certainly want a Trooper on the road who can withstand a drill instructor putting their head in a john, only because I know that they have the MENTAL TOUGHNESS to provide the necessary protection that is required in the Commonwealth.

Just my two cents...

So you mean to say that a recruit who passes ALL other phases of training, and lets say passes defensive tatctics @ the top of the class, but has a problem with having his/her head being shoved down the toilet, is not fit to protect the citizens of the great Commonwealth? Training is one thing. Abuse is another.

Posted by: cj3441

The State Police is one of the most well trained LE Org.'s in the country, and hold themselves to the highest standard. With that being said IF the allegations against this DI are True then he has committed a crime according to MGL and should not be an instructor. In my opinion you can't have an instructor at any academy who is breaking the law. And yes I do believe in keeping things in house and don't think this is as bad as the media is making it out to be. I don't think the whole Organization or training practices should be tarnished by the Possible actions of one person.

Posted by: massirishcop

Well it looks like all the dirty laundry is about to come out........I'm sure MSP do not want to be front page news everyday.........

Posted by: HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSP75

Hazing is not common place at the SPA. Yea, it is tough mentally and physically, but nothing to get Amnesty International up in a fuss about. If one DI screwed up, and the incident turns out to be true, then that ONE DI will be dealt with. Any organization/institution will have one or two crazy apples. The problem here is that every anti-police liberal and any mentally weak trainee that quit will want to punish the MSP and use this as an excuse. They will try to make the SPA a liberal cake walk and try to further water down the toughness of the State Police.

Our Constitution is not exactly something worthy of being passed on to Iraq or any other nation. For instance, while it might have worked 200 years ago, here we are 200 years later, and blacks still to this day do not fully enjoy the right to vote as do other citizens. It has to be approved in the House every 25 years. So much for equality. And in the wake of Katrina, even if you take race out of the equation, our government couldn't even get to its own people. And here we are telling someone else how to run their country? Imagine that.

Posted by: Mitpo62

Wuh?

Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Hey Kanye, how is this relevant?? This issue isn't about the constitution, or Katrina or voting, it's about an ALLEGED action of misconduct at the SPA.

Again, it should be like Las Vegas, what happens there, stays there... Do I think that "bobbing for poopies," or "staring contest with the floater" is the most effective way to toughen someone up?? Not necessarily, but it will instill a bit more intestinal fortitude... Sure, it's gross, so isn't showing up at the scene of some accidents... I'm not saying the two instances are the same, I'm just trying to put in perspective that maybe it is done to prove that sometimes on the job, it's not all about fighting with the nearest criminal. There are going to be times when the job is gross. I don't know, I'm still just a civilian. I haven't had the opportunity to go to the SPA, but you can bet your ass, if I get the chance to go, I'm certainly not going to question the methods that are employed to train me.

Posted by: mookie5

Get out of the country if you don't like it! Left wing liberals, always have something stupid to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Posted by: HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoninNH

Comparing MA State Police to sex offenders and rapists? That's way over the fucking line, Popo.

No supervision? Ahh, so a SP Major making the complaint... I guess it must have been a really low ranking Major then huh?

I agree with CenterMass... unless it causes permanent injury, keep your mouth shut.

{|=If you want to go share a cheese wheel with someone from IA because your DI was mean to you, you might think twice about putting on that uniform.

Permanent injury? I guess you're not aware that ingesting ecoli bacteria that exists in higher levels than in the New Orleans flood waters, can KILL you. How does that make you a better trooper? We can produce the leanest and meanest without abuse. A head shoved down the toilet does not teach you to shoot straight or kick ass when you pull over a car full of thugs with bops full of a&bdw on po's. If I were that recruit, shoving my head down the toilet isn't going to give me that confidence. Spend that time with me on the defensive tactics, and other physical and mental fitness exercises that represent REAL WORLD scenarios that I would face on the street. I think the odds are great that as a trooper, you'll face someone thats armed with a gun or you might have a lone trooper that happens to be 5'8" 140lbs trying to take down a dude 6'5" 250lbs whose trying to grab his service weapon. Not that size ALWAYS matters, but thats where the defensive training comes in. Because if you do have a situation as described above, clearly the suspect has a natural advantage based on size alone. You just better hope this trooper learned something in the academy thats going to at least keep him alive. Thats what we expect of our officers. Their human, not Superman. Lets not forget that they're is always someone out there thats bigger & badder. If we're going to call our troopers the best in the nation, then lets provide them with the best training that reflects real world situations. This is NOT accomplished by ecoli poisoning. We have McDonalds & BK for that.

Posted by: HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoninNH

Comparing MA State Police to sex offenders and rapists? That's way over the fucking line, Popo.

No supervision? Ahh, so a SP Major making the complaint... I guess it must have been a really low ranking Major then huh?

I agree with CenterMass... unless it causes permanent injury, keep your mouth shut.

{|=If you want to go share a cheese wheel with someone from IA because your DI was mean to you, you might think twice about putting on that uniform.

Permanent injury? I guess you're not aware that ingesting ecoli bacteria that exists in higher levels than in the New Orleans flood waters, can KILL you. How does that make you a better trooper? We can produce the leanest and meanest without abuse. A head shoved down the toilet does not teach you to shoot straight or kick ass when you pull over a car full of thugs with bops full of a&bdw on po's. If I were that recruit, shoving my head down the toilet isn't going to give me that confidence, but spend that time with me on the defensive tactics, and other physical and mental fitness exercises that represent REAL WORLD scenarios that I would face on the street. I think the odds are great that as a trooper, you'll face someone thats armed with a gun or you might have a lone trooper that happens to be 5'8" 140lbs trying to take down a dude 6'5" 250lbs whose trying to grab his service weapon. Not that size ALWAYS matters, but thats where the defensive training comes in. Because if you do have a situation as described above, clearly the suspect has a natural advantage based in size & strength alone. You just better hope this trooper learned something in the academy thats going to at least keep him alive. That what we expect of our law advantage officers, because their human, not Superman. Lets not forget that they're is always someone out there thats bigger & badder. If we're going to call our troopers the best in the nation, then lets provide them with the best training that reflects real world situations. This is NOT accomplished by ecoli poisoning. We have McDonalds & BK for that. =D>

Posted by: HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pvt. Cowboy

This was a reply to someone who did discuss the constitution.

Posted by: HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

For the most part Pvt. Cowboy, I agree with you. However when you cross the line, you cross the line. Just because you're the new recruit, does not mean you can't recognize abuse and then report it when you're a victim. Lets not forget the only reason we have to laws in place that we do is because of past instances when recruits were pushed too far, they didn't make it out alive. Case in point? Timothy Shepperd 1988. A recruit of the MCJTC Academy in Agawam, MA.

Posted by: HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookie5

Get out of the country if you don't like it! Left wing liberals, always have something stupid to say.

Last time I checked, questioning government policy is what makes America the nation it is. Why should I have to leave my birth nation simply because I disagree & choose not to lower myself to you're pathetic level? You're one of those idiots that say we must support the president no matter what & that anything less is unpatrioitc. I'm an American & damn proud of it!

Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

For the most part Pvt. Cowboy, I agree with you. However when you cross the line, you cross the line. Just because you're the new recruit, does not mean you can't recognize abuse and then report it when you're a victim. Lets not forget the only reason we have to laws in place that we do is because of past instances when recruits were pushed too far, they didn't make it out alive. Case in point? Timothy Shepperd 1988. A recruit of the MCJTC Academy in Agawam, MA.

Got any other instances? That seems to be the ONLY circumstance where a recruit died. I'm sure the liberal media would have the exact stats on a death toll if it were not an isolated incident. Things have evolved since that occurance almost two decades ago. Recruits are required to run in PT gear, not uniforms and boots anymore. Rules have been established requiring proper hydration for recruits etc. As a recruit, yeah, you're gonna get abused mentally, pushed to your limits physically, and it only makes you a better person. No blood, no foul. Besides, Sheppard didn't die from examining a toilet too closely.

Posted by: Wolfman

Hoopcity, you're a store detective and hope to be a Trooper someday? Hell, with your skew on how things should be run, let's just make you the Commandant of the Academy! Show 'em how it's done, pardner!!! Giddyap!!!

Posted by: JoninNH

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Next time I'm at Circut City in Springfield, I'll be sure to look you up Charlie, to tell you what a fuck nut you are. Where's that at? Parker Street? Jesus, I wonder if store management realizes there's a mental midget working for them.

Posted by: mookie5

Your a moron! 1st, this was a post about hazing, not about government or the constitution. 2nd since you choose to be part of the problem in this country, listen up. This is the greatest country the world has ever seen. Go start your own country and maybe model it after a few of the most hated evil regimes in all of history. The former Soviet Union, Germany under Hitler or maybe Iraq under Saddam. Our Constitution was made for moral people, people with a shared respect for humanity. Our Constitution is and should be the model for all nations who don't subscribe to such beliefs. You are clearly part of the reason the country and the world is the way it is. Keep living in the past and blaming everyone else for your problems. Look in the mirror HOOP! Stick my head in the fucking toilet and I will ask for a fork, eat the shit and ask for seconds. You don't want it bad enough! There are countless others out there with a fork that would do the same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookie5

Your a moron! 1st, this was a post about hazing, not about government or the constitution. 2nd since you choose to be part of the problem in this country, listen up. This is the greatest country the world has ever seen. Go start your own country and maybe model it after a few of the most hated evil regimes in all of history. The former Soviet Union, Germany under Hitler or maybe Iraq under Saddam. Our Constitution was made for moral people, people with a shared respect for humanity. Our Constitution is and should be the model for all nations who don't subscribe to such beliefs. You are clearly part of the reason the country and the world is the way it is. Keep living in the past and blaming everyone else for your problems. Look in the mirror HOOP! Stick my head in the fucking toilet and I will ask for a fork, eat the shit and ask for seconds. You don't want it bad enough! There are countless others out there with a fork that would do the same thing.

Hey Mookie, I have a fork, I will gladly dine at the State Police Academy latrine any day of the week!!

Posted by: Dogma20001

Everybody here should really stop talking crap and get a perspective on this. 1. This is just the usual media hype. 2. Putting someones head in a toilet full of crap does not teach you a damn thing other than hate towards the person who did it. I've been a boxer for almost 20yrs of my life, never had my head stuck in a toilet to make me"mentally tougher". I was taught to actually concentrate on the task at hand to overcome my opponet. If you can't do that on your own, well let's just say you shouldn't be in the process anyways. It's called "concentration". Someone sticking your head in a toilet is called "bullying". Nothing more, nothing less. When I was your age I had to walk up both sides of the mountain in a blizzard and fight ten grizzly bears just to get to school and I was only 6 months old. Everybody has a story, and it's usually magnified ten fold. If your willing to have your head stuck in a toilet just to get on, you should really think about your life. What if the DI say's "here is my D__K, put your mouth on it" You going to? Is that going to make you tougher? No, that makes you a D___KS___ER. People on here are starting to be like cattle, anytime someone who is "on the job" says something, you take it as god's word. I hate to tell you, but most of these people are the ones other officers call "rats", kiss ass, and such. I have them in the DOC academy right now. They will have you believe that they do the job, go home, make cookies, go to church, donate all their extra time to charity, turn in other cops for being naughty, spent the last 3 years running, doing pushups, situps and such every waking moment of their life and still have time for their kids. They are not the LEO's they claim to be, they are role playing what they want everybody to think they are. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's everybody, but there is a good amount self backslapping here. Lets put it this way, for the amount of time alot of these guys are saying they put into the job, they have alot of time to be on this board. Take it with a grain of salt. Remember, this is the internet, you can be anybody you want here. That being said, remember to use your noodle, thats what seperates you from being cattle.

Posted by: mookie5

Dogma, I don't believe anything the media prints. I am just sick and tired of idiots who don't know what they are talking about! Whether it happened or not, if you don't want the job then there's the door. I have no problem with what allegedly went on, nor do I have a problem with a lot of other things that go on at any academy, as long as it does not endanger anybody's life or safety. Getting your head flushed in a toilet or whatever went on is embarrasing but not dangerous. Let's not get crazy, sword swallowing is a whloe different animal.

Posted by: popo

Quote:

And I am quite sure that you don't know the military background of the DI's.

Hmm let's see, this DI was a former municipal officer, no prior military and got on the MSP in the 76th. Did I leave anything out?

Posted by: bbelichick

What about the rest? What about the DI's for the 70th, 71st, 72nd, etc?

I didn't think so. Most of them were former Army, Marines, etc.

Posted by: Beatboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by popo

Hmm let's see, this DI was a former municipal officer, no prior military and got on the MSP in the 76th. Did I leave anything out?

Wrong on the 76th and thanks above to whoever posted about some people being brainwashed here, sticking your godamn head in a toilet bowl does not prepare you for what u might see at an accident scene, and it's bullying. Thank god for some rationality here. If allegations are true this is going to hurt the organiztion, not make it look any harder or tougher, its going to make it look stupid, and at a time when MSP is looking for a contract, and it will also give voice to all those that dropped out because they were weak minded or not prepared, now they are all going to come out of the woodwork and say they were abused.

Posted by: Ptlm.Shamrock147

HAHAHAHAHA Hoopcitydetective is a STORE DETECTIVE!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA
We have a CODE 7 in the Checkout line!!! Repeat CODE 7, Checkout line! HAHAHAHA

Posted by: kwflatbed

Fitting Prayer:

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I cannot accept,
and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today
because they pi**ed me off.
And also, help me to be careful of the toes I step on today as they
may be connected to the a** that I might have to kiss tomorrow.

Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

This too seems to be somewhat of an "isolated incident." If it wasn't, I think the media would have covered this time and time again. The only issues that I've read about are the ones that were printed in the Boston Herald, and since the media LOVES to put anyone who has done something wrong in LE in the spotlight, I tend to think there would have been more articles written.

If this did happen, life goes on, and the academy rules will be changed again. As I posted earlier, there are guidelines for PT and hydration. Those rules were assimilated into the system after some issues arose. Now that more issues have risen, more guidelines may be put into place. It's the evolution of the academy. As I posted before, I don't think a head in the toilet is an effective way to get a message across to someone, and it's probably crossing the line, BUT, there are people that would take it and not say two words about it to any supervisor, just to accomplish their goals.

Posted by: popo

Quote:

Wrong on the 76th

I stand corrected, I meant 75th.

Posted by: Dane

Quote:

If I were that recruit, shoving my head down the toilet isn't going to give me that confidence.

No, but it would certainly serve as a strong reminder to flush the toilet when you're through using it.

Posted by: SinePari

If and when any of you make it to the SPA, I would not be wondering who/what/when/why about this incident. I would be completely focused on walking across the deck at graduation and getting pinned.

This just sucks for the dept, no doubt about it. But when OUTSIDERS start speculating without complete knowledge of the facts, then things spiral out of control. If you've never been in the SPA, WTF is your basis of knowledge? What's your perspective?

Yeah, I've done boot camp and the SPA, and it's all the same shit. Some of it's funny, some of it sucks. But at the end, all that matters is who's standing left and right of you, ready to work.

Posted by: chief801

Time to kick the beehive...IF and I repeat IF this happened, regardless if it was the misguided act of one, the whole organization will catch hell, right or wrong. I have read some posts that I find disturbing. The "I would do anything" to get the job sentiment is scary. Stress training, bring it on...P.T. bring it on, put my head in a dirty shitter with your foot in my back...call the ambulance, because either you or me is taking a ride! Remember folks...no one is obligated to carry out an illegal or improper order. "Put your head in the shitter" is both! Quite frankly, I'd rather work with the guy who turned around and punched that knucklehead in the suck than the mindless, spineless follower who would allow another man to put them in that situation. This situation would not be tolerated by society if it was some 20 year old kid with Greek letters on his shirt who pulled that stunt, nor should it be tolerated because it is viewed by some to be "training". You want to train, give the recruit boxing gloves and have him get his ass kicked by the baddest M.F. MSP has. I can buy that. If I was training someone and they gave in to my request to put their head in a crapper, I'd label him a quitter and boot his ass out. If you quit and let ANYONE do that to you, you don't have the intestinal fortitude to make it in this job!

Don't get me wrong, when it comes to training, the tougher the better, but that crossed the line. It serves no purpose other than to degrade and possibly put someone in sick bay...

Posted by: phuzz01

Quote:

Originally Posted by chief801

IF and I repeat IF this happened,

No use speculating...let's not forget that the only information that people are operating on here is a few articles in the Boston Herald, which is barely even one step above a tabloid. Based on the headlines that they used and the spin in the articles, it is clear that the Herald is doing anything it can to turn this into a big scandal. I'm not saying that this incident did happen or that it didn't, because I have no idea. I am saying we should wait until we have some actual facts about whether it happened or not, and to what extent it happened. Then you can say whatever you want about it...

Posted by: LA Copper

I hope this allegation isn't true. I must concur with the Chief. I don't see any purpose to this type of "training." I also agree that this is time better spent doing some type of quality training. That is what will help you in the future. I speak from experience.

I've been a street police officer with the Los Angeles Police Department for almost 17 years now. I've been involved in approximately 250 homicides; Been at the scene of about 400 shootings with hits where the victims didn't die; Been shot at several times; Been in a whole bunch of vehicle and foot pursuits; Was at the North Hollywood Bank robbery shootout; Seen approximately 500 dead bodys; Went through the 1992 riots; Went through the 1994 6.8 earthquake; Completed thousands of reports; Been to court hundreds of time; Arrested about 1000 suspects over the years; Completed the six month LAPD Academy in 1988 when it was still pretty tough; Etc, etc....

After all that, I cannot think of how having my head stuck in a toilet with crap in it would have helped me. Can any of you guys that are already on the job and experienced the things I mentioned above, think of how this would have helped you?

For those of you still trying to get on the job, think about it. This is just humiliating to the recruit involved. Even police recruits should be allowed to keep their dignity. I tried for 5 years to get on the job back there before I came out west and would have loved to have been able to stay there and work at home. But, I certainly wouldn't have subjected myself to this type of thing. I hope this story isn't true.

Posted by: bbelichick

La Copper-

I really don't think anyone is saying that this kind of stuff makes you a better cop. It was a judgement error by one misguided guy who has since been transferred and took down an entire staff with him.

This kind of thing is NOT encouraged at New Braintree and has not happened before. Shaving cream and fruit? Sure. If a little shaving cream makes you quit then you are a complete loser. The toilet thing was just wrong and is not part of the training.

Posted by: LA Copper

BBelichick,
If what you say is true, then I totally agree with you. It's just too bad that one guy can give a whole department a bad name. God only knows that we have had that same problem, i.e. Raphael Perez !

Rightous police work isn't always easy so a tough police academy is certainly warranted, just as long as it's relevant to the job.

Just like everything else, this too shall pass. Something else will come up in the world and the Herald will find something else to exploit.

Posted by: Beatboy

Couldnt agree more with the Chief.As far as shaving cream and fruit go, I agree it shouldnt make anyone quit, but honestly I see that act as completely juvenile, and something that shouldnt be happening at a Police Academy. Sounds like a bunch of immature college kids rather than Drill Instructors at such a fine academy. Keep in mind these kids are making about 250 dollars a week, they shouldnt be having their personal belongings destroyed by such immature acts. Blow apart the rooms thats common practice and I couldnt agree more with it, but dont be ruining somebody's personal belongings.

Posted by: Se7en

LA Copper, how can you compare Raphael Perez to the Trooper that allegedly put the recruits head inside a shitbowl? R. Perez shot a person who was handcuffed and stole drugs from dealers. The Trooper if the allegations are true is a coward who misused his authority. They both tarnished their badges, but it is unlikely that the Toiletry Trooper will spend any jail time for actions unlike Ram(rod)part Ralphy.

Posted by: Dr.Magoo

Hopefully this out of control Trooper is an isolated incident.

This is just what all the trainees need. A full investigation and interviews with IA. The academy is hard enough, now they will be subjected to the distraction of an IA invest. I hope this trooper learned his lesson. With a flush of a toilet, this Trooper made more than S@*t go down the drain.

Posted by: fscpd907

A quick question for the MSP Troopers. If the allegations are found to be true will the DI in question lose his job or just be permanently reassigned back to patrol.

Posted by: LA Copper

Se7en,
I think you misunderstood what I said. What I meant is that just one person can give an entire department a bad name, regardless of what the incident is. I've seen the articles in the Herald about this incident we've all been talking about.

Apparently this one trooper is giving the Mass State Police a bad name all by himself, kind of the same way Perez did to us. I wasn't comparing what Perez did to what the trooper did. (By the way, the gangster that Perez shot wasn't handcuffed) I don't see any reason why the trooper should go to jail, the only thing he may need to suffer is some internal discipline. At the same time, I hope Perez rots in jail!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Se7en

LA Copper, how can you compare Raphael Perez to the Trooper that allegedly put the recruits head inside a shitbowl? R. Perez shot a person who was handcuffed and stole drugs from dealers. The Trooper if the allegations are true is a coward who misused his authority. They both tarnished their badges, but it is unlikely that the Toiletry Trooper will spend any jail time for actions unlike Ram(rod)part Ralphy.

Posted by: Killjoy

*Remember to take any information gleaned from the Herald with a grain of salt, it's not a paper known for journalistic integrity.....on that note....

The incident that occured is still under investigation and will be dealt with appropriately. But to suggest that the stress training and the environment of the MSP academy is simply there to torture the recruits is ridiculous. There is no better way to prepare people for the inevitable high-stress encounters of law enforcement that putting them in an environment of constant high stress. The state police is a unique organization that is neither a local department (responsible for one geographic town or city location) nor a federal agency, which do not employ uniformed officers on general patrol functions, but highly-trained investigators. I'm not sure if our out-of-state guests realize that in Mass, and some other states as well, there are no patrolling deputy sheriffs. The MSP performs both the functions of the "Highway Patrol" and the classic "Sheriff's Department". In many towns there is no police department or limited police coverage, and to those people, the MSP is the ONLY police they see. Troopers are responsible for vast areas, where often there is little chance of timely back up (my first patrol area had nine cities in it). Troopers patrol alone, nine months after you break the hatch in New Braintree you are in your own cruiser patrolling on your own! No partners, no patrol supervisors, limited access to backup.....you are it! You are making decisions and doing your job by yourself. People, victims, and other officers, look at you and expect answers and solutions!
The stress innoculation that goes on at the MSP academy trains recruits to be involved up to their necks in stressful scenarios and continue to function. The average civilian looks at pictures of recruits sitting on a table eating chow and go "Why? what purpose does that serve?" Its not that simple....what class would you give on how to keep your composure when you go to a rollover and find six ejected kids (it happened to me). Or a guy with his arm ripped off asking you if he's okay (it happend to me). How about when your wrestling with a three hundred pound drunk and you know no one's coming to back you up because your radio was ripped away before you could call (it happened to me). It's about teaching you that you can experience almost mind-numbing amounts of stress and continue to perform and never quit. It's not something you can read from a book or get from a power-point presentation. If some smashed fruit in your room stresses you to the point of quitting, the last thing I want is you backing me up!
In a recent editoral in the Herald (9-21-05), they state "In other words, they are law enforcement, not the infantry. So why are we preparing them as if they were headed into combat?" I don't know... the last time I checked, I put on body armor and loaded my pistol and shotgun up before I went out on patrol.....do they do that before heading into work at the Herald newsroom? Let me clue the civilians in on something, every day is combat to the police officer. Another quote from the same article "The old approach of tearing them down to build them up doesn't seem necessary here...especially since many troopers and recruits already have military experience." It's nice to know that some writer with probably zero military OR police experience is telling the MSP how their training should run. Is the suggestion that anyone who was in the military should be handed their boots, breeches and cruiser keys simply because they were in the military?? Sorry, its a much different job, besides the vast majority of military jobs are non-combat anyways. Should we make corporal cookie the chef a Trooper becaue he scrambled eggs in Alaska? Does a job on a local department qualify one for instant trooper status (despite the merger)? Negative...its a different job. These things help, but cannot teach you the job of being a Trooper.
Despite what the papers would have you believe the training at the academy is better than ever, and prepares future Troopers more completely than any other type of training would or could. The Herald likes to harp on the 80+ washouts, and complaints of the few they interviewed. Hogwash! Sour grapes! No one likes to admit they had the winning lottery ticket and threw it away. What the Herald fails to mention is the 174 proud trainees there right now who you could not drag away kicking and screaming. It would be a disservice to them and future classes, not to mention the citizens of the commonwealth to end or weaken the stress training based on one isolated incident.

Posted by: tarc

Killjoy,

I agree with the majority of your post. The part I'm curious about is when you write that a person from a local department should not get instant trooper status? Now mind you, I do agree that I would not know your 10 codes, rules and regs, and things of those nature, but I have worked both in patrol and as a detective. I have been the lead investigator on every type of case from murder to credit card fraud. I guess my question is, what do you do on your job that an officer from a local PD does not do? I'm not talking about the specialities either (i.e.-K-9, accident reconstructionist, etc). I do agree somebody from a PD with less than 50 officers might not do as much, but to make a statement like you did, I disagree with you. I'm not trying to get into the Local vs. SP contest either.

Posted by: rhl

Please do NOT think this is anything but an isolated incident. If it happened, it was most certainly out of line. It is not a part of any MSP training. I know, I've been through it from both sides. The MSP academy is very tough. It should be. You are IT most of the time out there. We ride alone and it's you against the bad guy in that lonely breakdown lane in the middle of nowhere at zero-dark thirty hours. Turning the academy into a milquetoast summer camp will only serve to get our people killed. As Quazimoto said, "I am not a monster!" stay safe, rhl

Posted by: LA Copper

Kiljoy,
Although I am now an "out of state guest," I'm originally from Massachusetts, born in Boston and raised on the South Shore. I didn't leave there until I was 26, after taking two Civil Service exams and "only" scoring a 99 on both. Much to my chagrin, I, like some folks on this site, did not get lucky enough to make it on the job there. So I do understand how the Mass State Police work. I even know a few of your co-workers.

If this article is true and I understand it's a big if, since The Herald printed it, I still believe that sticking someone's head in a dirty toilet is too far over the top. I still believe that a recruit does not need to be humiliated like that to make him / her a good trooper / officer.
I agree that a certain degree of stress is needed but not that.

By the way, I agree with just about everything else you said. What part of the state do you work in?

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarc

Killjoy,I guess my question is, what do you do on your job that an officer from a local PD does not do?

On this job, people STAY...and do not look for another dept ever again. Nobody takes another civil circus, look online for depts around the country, or talks to a "buddy" that can help him/her get on a dept.

What does that tell you about the dept, whether people stay or leave.

Posted by: FedCop

Why is it that every time a newspaper prints an article that someone does not like it is labeled as "spin?"

Posted by: FedCop

Think about it.....The Boston Herald, a conservative leaning newspaper, posted an article that many officers throughout the commonwealth are angry about. But, instead of dealing with the contents of that article, some people start questioning the integrity of the journalism. If the Boston Globe printed that same story, many officers on this website would be up-in-arms claiming that this newspaper is full of liberal bias. Deal with the incident, fix the problem and move on.

Posted by: nirtallica

It is really sad that the 174 left standing in the 78th RTT have to deal with all this crap on top of everything else just because some quitters decided to complain and RAT. If you quit, be an adult and accept the fact that you couldn't cut it, instead of trying to justify why you quit. I nor any other Trooper would want you wearing French and Electric Blue. Who wants some p---y backing them up? In the process of your whining and complaining, you have done nothing but attempt to tarnish the SPA image and have made life difficult for those 174 trainees still standing tall. Imagine, you haven't even left the academy yet and you already have an interview with IA. To those 174, don't let all this b------t get you down. Try and stay motivated, dedicated and focused on your goal.

Posted by: ABIGAIL

Anybody on this board, who approves of somebody's head getting shoved into a toilet, is a bigger coward then somebody who quits. I'm also going thru the process for the 79th, ,if it works out fine, if not I move on, some of you on this board want the job so bad it's scary. MY ADVICE IS GET A LIFE!

Posted by: Se7en

Quote:

Originally Posted by SinePari

There are a few reasons why someone would leave their local p.d. to join the State police and here are a few examples. More money, LESS work. The opportunity to join various units. Local politics. You can live anywhere in the State. Less work.

Posted by: bbelichick

The candidates the MSP gets are usually the most motivated members of their local departments. Your theory is garbage. Many local PD's are full of guys who would love to be on the MSP but can't get the score on the test or pass the background.

Posted by: Pvt. Cowboy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABIGAIL

Anybody on this board, who approves of somebody's head getting shoved into a toilet, is a bigger coward then somebody who quits. I'm also going thru the process for the 79th, ,if it works out fine, if not I move on, some of you on this board want the job so bad it's scary. MY ADVICE IS GET A LIFE!

And my advice to you is STFU. Yes, there are a lot of people on here who want the job badly... it doesn't make them scary, it makes them committed to acheiving their goal. Just because you have the sour grapes mindset that if you don't get on, then "Oh well..." doesn't mean that's the mentality the rest of should have. Why don't you just withdraw now and save yourself some time...

Now pay attention sweetness, nobody has APPROVED of putting someone's head in the toilet... there have been many comments about taking the abuse, beating up the DI, RATTING, etc., but nobody has said, "Toilet dunking = effective training."

Get a life huh? I'd tell you about mine, but I don't want to brag today.

NOTE: The personal bullshit posts between ABIGAIL and Pvt. Cowboy have been deleted. My apologies for not getting to this sooner and letting get as far out of hand as it did. Thanks to dcs2244 for killing the thread. In the future please take personal arguments to PM, IM or the chat room.

Posted by: FedCop

ABIGAIL,
Your post is right on! Good luck with the 79th, the MSP is one of the best departments in this country...second to the FBI, of course.

Posted by: dcs2244

Good points, Killjoy...but you forgot the "Less Work" one!

Hopefully Abigail/Abner will make it into the next class...a 'swirly' or two may help to deflate his/her ego. Then again, the state police may be unworthy of an individual with such prodigious talent and experience...

Posted by: LA Copper

"Can't we all just get along?"
Come on guys, we're all supposed to be on the same team here. Let's all play nice.
It's all just a difference of opinion...

Posted by: badogg88

Maybe someone could lock this post because now it's just a fight between Abigail and Pvt. Cowboy and it has NOTHING TO DO with the MSP Hazing....and it's just a waste of space.

Who cares what people's backgrounds are, how old they are, how many hours they work. A lot of people on this board would give anything to get on the MSP, others could care less. Just agree to disagree because it's never going to end if you don't.

Posted by: j809

Hey Cowboy, I wouldn't get my hopes up with only a 95. The people that passed they physicals and started their backgrounds are 96s. As far as 95s go there are something like 1500 or so 95s. I would say that only the best will go on from the 95s and judging by your posts I don't think you'lll pass the psych test. Just take a deep breath, relax and let things happen. Stop waiting your time on here kissing ass and go run.

Posted by: mpdcam

Not everyone wants to be a trooper Cowboy. Plenty of us are just as proud to wear LAPD blue as the staties are to wear french/electric blue. And don't judge people who drop out. You don't know their story or reasons. For someone who isn't even a cop, you sure have alot of opinions about what cops and troopers should and shouln't do. If you want to eat S__T to become a trooper, then go ahead. Just remember, there will be more people laughing at you for doing it as there are applauding for doing it.

Posted by: JoninNH

Someone kill this thread. It's way off topic.

Posted by: Tango16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOOPCITYDETECTIVE

And who was in charge of running that Academy?? HMMMMMMMMMM

Posted by: irish937

The horse has been beaten to death! Enough of this thread.

Posted by: dcs2244

Due to popular demand, this thread is now dead. You guys can sling mud at one another by PM...

NOTE: The personal bullshit posts between ABIGAIL and Pvt. Cowboy have been deleted. My apologies for not getting to this sooner and letting get as far out of hand as it did. Thanks to dcs2244 for killing the thread. In the future please take personal arguments to PM, IM or the chat room.

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