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St. Louis police want more pistol firepower

(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: kwflatbed

By Patrick M. O'Connell
St. Louis Post-Dispatch

St. Louis — The pistol in every St. Louis police officer's duty holster is a 9 mm Beretta 92F semiautomatic. It will dispense 16 slugs the diameter of a good-sized pen with as many pulls on the trigger.
Those bullets fly with the power to punch through eight sheets of drywall. But in today's tough crime environment, is it enough wallop to overpower an armed threat?
The St. Louis Police Officers Association is raising the question with a suggestion that the department switch to .40-caliber pistols, which experts say have more stopping power plus less tendency to pass through the target and on to unintended consequences.
It is a transition already made by many other large departments in the region, although city officers clearly find themselves most often under fire. That fire, some of them say, is increasingly heavy-caliber.
"We want to be able to compete with what's out on the street," said Sgt. Gary Wiegert, the association president. "Right now we can't. There's so much violence going on out on the street right now. … How do you contain someone if you're outgunned?"
But Sgt. William Kiphart, who heads the department's firearms training, said the issue is not as simple as it might sound. He insisted police most often face criminals with common-caliber handguns, meaning officers are rarely outgunned.
Kiphart said the department will run exhaustive tests in about three years on what the next generation of weapons should be. "We're not closing our mind to anything," he said. "It's a big puzzle, and I objectively compare each piece."
The city has used 9 mm Berettas for about 16 years, with each weapon in use about 10 years.
The 9 mm versus .40-caliber debate is "like splitting hairs," Kiphart said. "It comes down to accuracy, reliability of the equipment … and the skills of the person using the weapon."
He said the 9 mm Berettas have less recoil than .40-caliber weapons, and the smaller 9 mm projectile is more accurate.
The concept of stopping power is a myth — "There is no such thing," he said. The issue is where an officer places shots and the degree they penetrate.
Officers "want a magic bullet," Kiphart said. "There is no magic bullet."
Wiegert's concern is about how many hits it takes to incapacitate an adversary. Police studies show that some people can withstand grievous injuries and keep firing.
David Klinger, a professor of criminology at University of Missouri-St. Louis and former police officer, said, "All else equal, most people want to have a bigger round."
Caliber is a decimal of an inch; a .40-caliber bullet is four-tenths of an inch in diameter, about one-ninth larger than a 9 mm. While the hole sizes are close, the energy delivered by the larger bullet is significantly greater. Specifications from one ammunition maker, Winchester, show a 27.5 percent difference (408 foot-pounds, a standard measurement of force, compared with 320).
Wiegert also expressed concern that city police issued 9 mm rifles, which use the same ammunition as the pistols, when shotguns were phased out of patrol cars about 3½ years ago. He said that's not enough, either.
Kiphart said the Beretta CX4 Storm Carbines, equipped with holographic scopes, allow for a high level of accuracy from a long distance.
Many other area departments still carry 12-gauge shotguns, often the Remington Model 870 pump-action. Some, like Maryland Heights, Florissant and St. Peters, equip at least some cars with military-style rifles, which they say offer long-range punch with less chance of collateral damage than a shotgun.
In the city, police can call for the Hostage Response Team to get heavier firepower.
Long guns aside, police rely most heavily on their sidearms. For the Missouri Highway Patrol, Illinois State Police, St. Louis County police, Madison County Sheriff's Department, FBI and others, that means one brand or another of .40-caliber. Some, like University City and Creve Coeur, use 9 mm.
"It's going to depend a lot on who you talk to and what experience they have in the field," said Officer John Bozarth, armorer for the St. Louis County Police Department, which has used .40-calibers since 1991.
"With the .40-caliber, … most officers feel more comfortable with their ability to stop an assailant because of the bigger caliber, the bigger bullet," Bozarth said.
But it doesn't end with that, he noted. He prefers the feel and accuracy of the Beretta to the widely used .40-caliber Glock, noting that a 9 mm shot that hits its target is more valuable than a .40-caliber that doesn't. The county uses Sig Sauer brand .40-caliber pistols.
In testing with standard ammunition two years ago, Bozarth found that the 9 mm round had more penetrating power in building materials; it got through eight sheets of drywall, while the .40-caliber did not.
Too much penetration is a concern in police work, with fears that a slug may pass through a criminal or a wall and hit bystanders.
"The 9 mm goes through a whole lot more things that you don't want it to go through than the .40," Bozarth said.
At Maryland Heights, Officer Kevin Stewart said that was a consideration in his department's recent switch from 9 mm. He explained, "The .40-caliber is going to knock them down but not go through and hit somebody else."



Wire Service


Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:
But Sgt. William Kiphart, who heads the department's firearms training, said the issue is not as simple as it might sound. He insisted police most often face criminals with common-caliber handguns, meaning officers are rarely outgunned.
Kiphart said the department will run exhaustive tests in about three years on what the next generation of weapons should be. "We're not closing our mind to anything," he said. "It's a big puzzle, and I objectively compare each piece."
The city has used 9 mm Berettas for about 16 years, with each weapon in use about 10 years.
The 9 mm versus .40-caliber debate is "like splitting hairs," Kiphart said. "It comes down to accuracy, reliability of the equipment … and the skills of the person using the weapon."
He said the 9 mm Berettas have less recoil than .40-caliber weapons, and the smaller 9 mm projectile is more accurate.
The concept of stopping power is a myth — "There is no such thing," he said. The issue is where an officer places shots and the degree they penetrate.
Officers "want a magic bullet," Kiphart said. "There is no magic bullet."
Now here's a man who really knows what he's talking about. This is probably the smartest thing I've seen printed in paper concerning firearms in a long time. I actually have to give this writer some props for actually going out and finding an expert to get his opinion, rather than reprinting some half-wit's idiotic view.


Posted by: KEVDEMT

its not the size of the hole, its where you put it. a 9mm hole in the heart is much more effective the a .40 hole in the leg.

its also more effective if your shooting a pistol that you are comfortable with. theres certainly some logic in having everyone on the dept carry the same gun. you only need to stock one type of ammo, need only to send your armorers to one school, in the event of a large scale gun battle(north hollywood), you have complete interchangeability between officers. but, IMHO, its a much better idea to allow your officers to carry a gun they feel comfortable with and will subsequently shoot better with. what is statistically more likely, a north hollywood shootout or a one on one shooting?

i can shoot well. not competition well, but i dont do too shabby. i can shoot the balls off a gnat at 10yds with my G17 but cant hit the floor if i drop my 92fs. if i worked for a dept that issued a beretta, quals would be tough and id never feel good enough about it under fire. but with a glock, no problem.

anyway, thats just my take on it.


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy View Post
Now here's a man who really knows what he's talking about. This is probably the smartest thing I've seen printed in paper concerning firearms in a long time. I actually have to give this writer some props for actually going out and finding an expert to get his opinion, rather than reprinting some half-wit's idiotic view.
I agree....to a point. Evan Marshall's exhaustive study proved that certain calibers are more effective for one-shot stops (to the torso) than others, and the 9mm ranked relatively low in the pecking order except for the super high-velocity JHP's like Cor-Bon.

What I got from Marshall's study is that lighter, faster expanding bullets are generally more effective than their heavier counterparts in the same caliber, but even then there are exceptions such as the 158gr +P LHP being the most effective .38 Special round. St. Louis PD might be just as well served by going to higher performance ammunition than switching calibers.

What I found amusing about this article was that I'm part of the last generation of cops who drove (new) square cruisers and carried a revolver, and everyone back then thought 9mm pistols were going to be the panacea and our savior. Now they're looked down upon in the same way revolvers were looked down upon back in the late 1980's.

Cops are never happy unless we have the newest/shiniest toy!


Posted by: Killjoy

Evan Marshall's and Ed Sanow's findings have been mired in controversy ever since it has been found out that Marshall and Sanow excluded some statistical data, sources and some shootings from their books. While I don't think their data is useless, I also think that it isn't the formula for finding the perfect handgun round. As far as I'm concerned, the perfect handgun round doesn't exist. Handgun rounds, by their very nature, are a compromise of compactness and controllability. Some people are shot with 5 rounds of .357 magnum and live, and some are shot with .22 and die; like Trooper Mark Coates and Richard Blackburn.

I think once handgun rounds advance beyond the level of "pocket gun" calibers (.22, .25, .32) into duty calibers (.38, .357, 9mm, .40, .45), I think it is less matter of physics and more a matter of shot placement.

Quote:
Cops are never happy unless we have the newest/shiniest toy!
Absolutely true, I think it is human nature to think we can find some sort of mechanical solution for every problem. Gunfights, it seems, are more matter of training, skill and plain old luck.


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy View Post
Evan Marshall's and Ed Sanow's findings have been mired in controversy ever since it has been found out that Marshall and Sanow excluded some statistical data, sources and some shootings from their books.
I actually got it from the horse's mouth (Marshall himself) that the data which was excluded fell outside the parameters of the study (outdated/handloaded or otherwise anomalous ammunition, modified fireams, etc.). Even taking that into account, it's the best database of ammunition performance available.

Of course there will always be fluke incidents like a .22 or .32 hitting an aorta or femoral artery, but by supplying the most generally effective weapon/ammunition combination, I think that minimizes the variables associated with ammunition performance.

Another thing I thought of when reading this is one of the guns I have in my collection; a PP pistol built in the original Walther plant in East Germany in the 1950's. It was an East German Polizei issued pistol, in caliber 7.65mm, also known as .32 Automatic.


Posted by: PaulKersey

I used to get a kick out of the guys down at the range when some depts. started carrying the .40s. Their guys would be standing next to others who still had the 9mm. The 9mm guys would plink a steel silhouette target but not knock it down. The .40 guys would then knock it over like it was struck with a sledgehammer. The 9mm guys used to cry that they were being sent out on the street with an inferior and useless round.

Many departments, especially SWAT teams, are carrying .45s now. I already hear guys from various agencies crying that the .40 is obsolete.


Everyone should spend the money on ammo and extra range time, and a few AR15s of course.


Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:
Another thing I thought of when reading this is one of the guns I have in my collection; a PP pistol built in the original Walther plant in East Germany in the 1950's. It was an East German Polizei issued pistol, in caliber 7.65mm, also known as .32 Automatic.
Europeans have always had some sort of fascination with crappy handgun calibers. I've read it had something to do with the move from larger-caliber blackpowder cartridge rifles to small-bore bolt-action repeaters in the late 19th century. The boring machinery used to bore rifle barrels could also be used to bore pistol barrels hence proliferation of handguns on .30 caliber or sub-.30 caliber loadings in the early 20th century. The russian-designed PSM of the early 70's was a service pistol in 5.45mm caliber!


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulKersey View Post
I used to get a kick out of the guys down at the range when some depts. started carrying the .40s. Their guys would be standing next to others who still had the 9mm. The 9mm guys would plink a steel silhouette target but not knock it down. The .40 guys would then knock it over like it was struck with a sledgehammer. The 9mm guys used to cry that they were being sent out on the street with an inferior and useless round.
Good thing we're not out there getting into gunfights with steel pepper popper targets.

When I was in the academy, some of the (few) people who had 9mm's looked down on those of us with revolvers, until we had to shoot in a driving rainstorm. Tyngsboro was using Ruger P-85's which jammed every other round, while my Model 10 revolver just kept going and going and going......

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulKersey View Post
Many departments, especially SWAT teams, are carrying .45s now. I already hear guys from various agencies crying that the .40 is obsolete.


Colonel Jeff Cooper, who was a big proponent of the .45 ACP for police work, called the .40 "a solution to a non-existent problem".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy View Post
Europeans have always had some sort of fascination with crappy handgun calibers. I've read it had something to do with the move from larger-caliber blackpowder cartridge rifles to small-bore bolt-action repeaters in the late 19th century. The boring machinery used to bore rifle barrels could also be used to bore pistol barrels hence proliferation of handguns on .30 caliber or sub-.30 caliber loadings in the early 20th century.
Even the West German Polizei, known for not messing around, initially carried 9mm Kurz (.380 Auto) for their service round. Now I believe they use the SIG P-225 in 9mm Parabellum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy View Post
The russian-designed PSM of the early 70's was a service pistol in 5.45mm caliber!
Isn't that the one Sarah Brady had a near-coronary about? The "cop killer" gun?


Posted by: PaulKersey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta784 View Post
When I was in the academy, some of the (few) people who had 9mm's looked down on those of us with revolvers, until we had to shoot in a driving rainstorm.
Though the revolvers were a pain in the rain when trying to pour a powder charge into a chamber.




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