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Not signing a ticket an excuse......

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Posted by: toast555

I recently had a question posed to me by one of my fellow officers......

There are laws that say that traffic violations have to be filled out in there entirety.

I have heard about people getting out of traffic tickets if an officer fails to say, fill out the name and address, or puts in the wrong date of the offense, etc.

Now, the section where the violator has to sign the ticket, could that be used as an excuse to a judge/magistrate to get out of a ticket? I know in my department, no one ever asks the violator to sign the ticket.

Just curious if anyone has ever tried that excuse on anyone out there.


Posted by: Clouseau

A few may have tried...it never worked though.


Posted by: toast555

Even though its a matter of law that the ticket be filled out in its entirety? I know I have read about this before, I just don't have the laws handy.......


Posted by: Gil

I had one where I forgot to fill in the total fine and they appealed it on that, they were still found responsible. It all depends on the magistrate or the judge if it gets that far.


Posted by: toast555

So basically even though its fact of law that the ticket needs to be filled out entirely, the judge/magistrate can still find the violator responsible......


Posted by: Clouseau

Toast, are you a cop or are you someone that received a citation without signing it?

It's not a defense. I have never seen a Mass. cop ask someone to sign a ticket.

An officer is expected to fill out the "rest" of the citation correctly, and a judge can dismiss it if not done so....but I have never seen it.

You can be mailed a citation without the officer ever stopping you...


Posted by: Gil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouseau";p=&quot View Post
Toast, are you a cop or are you someone that received a citation without signing it?
Was wondering that myself....


Posted by: 7MPOC

I too, like Gil have forgot to fill in the total amount and nothing ever came of it, magistrates understand cops are human and make mistakes, but because you put the wrong date on the cite doesnt mean someone should get out of 50 in a 30.
Also, its just like the rumor you can get out of being arrested because the officer doesnt read you your rights on the side of the road. Some idiots actually try to say I wasnt given my miranda warnings when arrested and then that nice little piece of paper shows up that they sign in booking saying they have been given and understand there rights. You gotta love it when that happens.


Posted by: Clouseau

Actually Gil, we pretty much already know the answer to that one don't we?

Toast, why didn't you just say you or your buddy got a ticket and were wondering about the signature issue. You would get an answer...and a lot more respect.

Nothing like coming on here and impersonating a cop...trying to B.S. the rest of us!


Posted by: Wolfman

Someone please share with me the "law" that states the citation must be filled out in its entirety. A chapter and section will be sufficient, as well as any language that states a citation is automatically voided should it prove defective in such a manner.

Toast, you say a "fellow officer" posed this question to you. This implies that you are an officer. What kind of officer are you? Are you a police officer? Are you an Ensign on a cruise ship? Master-at-arms for the local Water Buffalo lodge? Remember, it's a fact of law that you can get in trouble for impersonating a cop.


Posted by: Southside

Are you a Constable? :




Posted by: ROBOCOP1982

However...if the officer does feel the urge to have you sign the ticket, it might be a good idea. Otherwise you could find yourself in hancuffs...granted I've never seen that happen but I'm sure some have.


Posted by: copcar65

Ch90Cs2 reads in part: "Notwithstanding the provisions of any general or special law, other than a provision of this chapter, to the contrary, any police officer assigned to traffic enforcement duty shall, whether or not the offense occurs within his presence, record the occurrence of automobile law violations upon a citation, filling out the citation and each copy thereof as soon as possible and as completely as possible and indicating thereon for each such violation whether the citation shall constitute a written warning and, if not"
I have seen clerks and judges toss tickets for not being completely filled out, but I have also seen them tossed because of weird things like: "the officer was parked on private property when he observed the violation on the public way", "it was too close to the violator's birthday" etc.

Further down in the same section it does say the officer will request the violator to sign the citation. The courts and the registry have ruled that isn't required as it is not practical. If you do request the operator to sign the cite, they are not required to. Cho 90s25 requires the operator to sign his name on request (but this can't be on the citation) and they can be arrested if they refuse.


Posted by: stm4710

A signature is not an admission of guilt in this state right?


Posted by: Wolfman

Are you kidding? An admission of guilt is not an admission of guilt in this state unless accompanied by signed waivers, audio recordings, and a special papal disposition!


Posted by: wilkinson

All of this is 100% left to the Clerk's discreation!

I have had clerks do the following:

There are three degrees of traffic on the citation: Heavy/Moderate/Light!

So I fill in Heavy and cite someone for 25 mph over the posted limit. It so happened that when the operator was in my sights, the traffic other than his vehicle, happened to have a couple of seconds where no other vehicles were in sight.

The violator shows for his hearing and says: "Look, this cop said it was heavy traffic therefore my vehicle could not be picked out of heavy traffic"!

I neglected to write on the cite that his vehicle was the only vehicle in view for a couple of seconds.

Or a clerk may love the looks of "someone" and find (her) not responsible if there are three vehicles in my line of vision, and my F/S gauge easily picks out the fastest vehicle.

You could not humanly write everything down on a citation that would cover every halfassed "complaint" that mankind can think of!

The Clerk or Judge gets to do his thing.

You just standby, and eat the whim of the court!


Posted by: toast555

Quote:
Ch90Cs2 reads in part: "Notwithstanding the provisions of any general or special law, other than a provision of this chapter, to the contrary, any police officer assigned to traffic enforcement duty shall, whether or not the offense occurs within his presence, record the occurrence of automobile law violations upon a citation, filling out the citation and each copy thereof as soon as possible and as completely as possible and indicating thereon for each such violation whether the citation shall constitute a written warning and, if not"
I have seen clerks and judges toss tickets for not being completely filled out, but I have also seen them tossed because of weird things like: "the officer was parked on private property when he observed the violation on the public way", "it was too close to the violator's birthday" etc.

Further down in the same section it does say the officer will request the violator to sign the citation. The courts and the registry have ruled that isn't required as it is not practical. If you do request the operator to sign the cite, they are not required to. Cho 90s25 requires the operator to sign his name on request (but this can't be on the citation) and they can be arrested if they refuse.
Thats the section of law I was reffering to. It sounds like that it is general ruling that the violator doesn't need to neccessarily need to sign the ticket, due to the fact that this is not common practice. Although, it really sounds like its up to a judge/magistrate.

Quote:
"it was too close to the violator's birthday" etc.
Has anyone really had a ticket thrown out for this??


Posted by: Negaproach

In CT where I work we have motorist's sign every traffic ticket issued. If a motorist does not wish to sign a ticket, so be it. I just put "Refused to sign" in the signature box, then add that along with the motorist’s attitude that accompanied it in the backup. Since we have every motorist sign it, we go through the "by signing your not admitting any guilt, only admitting you received a copy of this ticket which I am about to hand you" B.S. Anyways when a motorist does not wish to sign, I think it usually just adds to the documentation of a motorists defiance to law enforcement and adds weight to my case if its contested.


Posted by: popo

THe only time I make them sign is when they act as the agent for the violator. I.E. Driving a car with a bad inspection sticker, cite the owner.


Posted by: Mortal knight

The only time I had some one sign a ticket was because she had faulty equipment and driving her dad's car. Funny thing is she was pulled over by a different officer 5 minutes later.
I basically don't like scumbags touching my Cross Pen!


Posted by: Macop

The way I see it, who cares if they win on appeal. You can be sure of a few things, one they are inconvenienced in some way to show up to court and is no quick and easy process, even more so they will probably loose some pay. And if you have to go its either part of your day shift or a sweet thing called OT with a nice little miniumum. So who we win every time!


Posted by: wilkinson

Macop

Quote:
The way I see it, who cares if they win on appeal. You can be sure of a few things, one they are inconvenienced in some way to show up to court and is no quick and easy process, even more so they will probably loose some pay. And if you have to go its either part of your day shift or a sweet thing called OT with a nice little miniumum. So who we win every time!
I was told to look at this in the same way, after my first time that I had a violator walk out with a n/r.

It still bothers me to see this happen though, just because I may have forgotten to add a word, or check off a box.

As far as having a citation signed?

States and municipalities that require this are needlessly putting officers and deputies, in a position of added danger.

There is a zero need to even ask an already upset operator to sign a citation that he is seething about! There is no need for this!

The lawyers, and/or politicians, who thought of adding this frivolous burden to the cop on patrol, are not out there at 2:00AM stopping a tired (or DUI) motorist who is in no mood to pay a $250.00 citation.......much less sign the damn thing!

The Commonwealth does not "require "that officers do this.

But they included it in the cite books: just to rubber stamp other states.


Posted by: RPD931

Gig 'em, hand it to 'em, then say 'adios'. Simple, ain't it?


Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macop";p=&quot View Post
The way I see it, who cares if they win on appeal. You can be sure of a few things, one they are inconvenienced in some way to show up to court and is no quick and easy process, even more so they will probably loose some pay. And if you have to go its either part of your day shift or a sweet thing called OT with a nice little miniumum. So who we win every time!

Absolutely!!!


Posted by: dcs2244

Macop, you're right: inconvenience for the lemming is the best outcome: it has to take two days off from work and you get four hours on the big clock. I had a kid approach me after an NR at the mag appeal and try to taunt me: "...I beat your ticket..." or some such...I looked at him and said "...yeah, but you lost two days of work and I made $200 for five minutes work...". He had no response.

Anyway, I've never asked for a signature. Too, there is case law regarding wrong dates/times, misspellings, etc that says admin errors don't necessarily void the cite.


Posted by: offlan

When I went to the academy, they told us it was not necessary to have the violator sign, it could possibly be an officer safety issue


Posted by: LA Copper

I wish we could issue a ticket without ever having to stop the vehicle, that would be great!

Here in California, we tell the violator to "Please sign the citation. It's not an admission of guilt, just your personal promise to appear in court." If the violator refuses to sign, we call for a supervisor to try to convince them to do so. If they still won't sign, then they go to jail and see a judge the next day. That's it, there's no deviation.

After an officer completes his/her shift, the citations all go to a supervisor for review. If mistakes are made or something is left off the ticket, the officer fills out a citation correction form. By the time it gets to court, the ticket is always filled out correctly.

Just out of curiosity, how is having the violator sign the ticket anymore of an officer safety issue than anything else we do on the street. Also, if the violator is DUI, he won't be signing any ticket, he'll be going to jail for DUI.


Posted by: Clouseau

Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Copper";p=&quot View Post
I wish we could issue a ticket without ever having to stop the vehicle, that would be great!
Just out of curiosity, how is having the violator sign the ticket anymore of an officer safety issue than anything else we do on the street.
Fox news would be out of business. That would put an end to half the chases out there.

The philosophy is that your giving, or letting the operator have a weapon. {The pen}. I would be more afraid of someone driving off with my $20.00 Cross pen.


Posted by: LA Copper

Good point about all the chases out here. It seems every other day there's a live televised chase on TV out here. Although since Boston Bill (Bratton) took over, he has changed our pursuit policy. Now we can't chase someone for a simple traffic infraction. An actual crime has to be committed before we can pursue.

Now of course if the violator takes off with your Cross pen, then we have a petty theft and the pursuit is on!




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