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Posted by: kwflatbed

By Fran Spielman and Frank Main
The Chicago Sun-Times

CHICAGO - Chicago Police officers will soon be equipped with M4 carbines to match the firepower of the street gangs they're up against, under a policy change in the works to stop the bloodshed on the city's streets.
Police Supt. Jody Weis' decision to arm and train his 13,500 officers with more powerful weapons was disclosed as Mayor Daley emerged from a City Hall summit meeting with a plea to every Chicagoan who cares about children.
"I don't want people to wait for Mayor Daley to call a meeting. I want you to call a meeting in your home, with your children and loved ones. I want you to . . . talk to those children next door. I want the parents on the block to say, 'This block will be free of violence. This summer, not one child will be [killed by] gangs and drug dealers,' " Daley told a City Hall news conference.
"Regardless of whether you live in a high-rise on Lake Shore Drive [or] poor housing or you're middle class or business leaders -- I want you to get energized about saving a child. . . . A mentoring position, a summer job. . . . Reach out to adopt a school. Reach out to a block club. Reach out to an ex-offender program. Let's do things that we've never done before collectively."
Chicago Police SWAT teams are already equipped with M4 carbines, but rank-and-file officers are out-gunned. They're only allowed to carry pistols. When you're up against a street gang member armed with an AK-47, that's like taking a BB-gun to a battle.
Used by the U.S. Marine Corps, the M4 is an assault rifle that fires more shots in less time than a conventional handgun. The fully automatic version can fire up to 1,000 rounds a minute, although the magazines hold 20 to 30 shots.
Last week, police arrested a man suspected of using an AK-47 during a shoot-out with police just after he allegedly used the gun to kill a man at a South Side plumbing business.
In October 2006, police were in a shoot-out with three gang members they thought were on their way to carry out a gang hit. Police fired at the men after one of the suspects raised an AK-47 at them. Some of the officers were armed with assault weapons and shotguns. Two of the suspects were killed.
"That's a good example of why it's important for police to be equally armed," Police Department spokeswoman Monique Bond said.
Fraternal Order of Police President Mark Donahue welcomed the change, as long as the Police Department pays for the weapons and officers are properly trained and given discretion in using the M4.
"Many people have made statements that they feel outgunned on the street. In certain circumstances, that has been shown to be true," Donahue said.
New York City police officers recently started patrolling subways with similar assault weapons and bomb-sniffing dogs. In the Chicago area, some suburban police departments have carried assault weapons since the mid-1990s.
Timing and logistics of the change in firepower have not yet been ironed out.
First, the weapons must be purchased -- and it's not yet clear who is going to pay. Officers currently chose from a list of authorized handguns and pay out of their own pockets. Second, they must be trained in how to use them. That would be a logistical nightmare that would require all officers to return to the police academy.
Finally, the Police Department must determine whether the new weapons would remain in squad cars or be carried by officers.
The firepower change is the latest show of force by Weis.
This weekend, he plans to flood South and West Side neighborhoods plagued by violence with SWAT teams and Targeted Response Units in full battle dress, with two police helicopters hovering above.

Wire Service

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Posted by: billb

I love my M-4!

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Posted by: Killjoy

I doubt very highly the rank-and-file will be equipped with fully automatic M4's. The rifle is also more correctly called a "patrol rifle" then "assault rifle" if not equipped for full automatic fire. The issue is also less about "matching" the "firepower" of criminals, its about putting precision fire where it needs to be and having a cartridge that will get the job done right. Pistol cartridges have mediocre performance at best, and pistols are used only as a weapon of convenience, not because they have stellar performance.

Its funny that its taken so long for departments to realize a shoulder-fired weapon with four points of contact is a lot more accurate than pistol held in one or two hands.

And now for some press nitpicking:

Quote:

Used by the U.S. Marine Corps, the M4 is an assault rifle that fires more shots in less time than a conventional handgun.

The M4 is, in fact, only used by special purpose USMC units, like Force Recon or Marine Corp Forces Special Operations Command. The USMC utilizes the M16A2 which is being phased out in favor of the M16A4. Both have full length 20 inch barrels. The M4, and M4A1 are utilized much more by the US Army and Air Force. Also in semi-automatic mode, I don't believe the M4 can fire more shots in less time than any semi-automatic pistol.



From the top down:
M16A1, M16A2, M4, M16A4

Quote:

The fully automatic version can fire up to 1,000 rounds a minute, although the magazines hold 20 to 30 shots.

The M4 series has an average cyclic rate of about 700-850 rpm, depending on wear, lubrication, ammunition and other factors. It certainly does not fire at 1000 rpm. The magazines hold rounds, not shots.

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Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy Also in semi-automatic mode, I don't believe the M4 can fire more shots in less time than any semi-automatic pistol.

I don't know of many pistols with a 30-round magazine capacity, and I could empty a M-4 on semi-auto long before even the most proficient pistol person could manage one or two reloads.

I loved my M-16A1; I always preferred triangle-shaped handguards, the full auto capability, and the lighter weight vs. the A2 version.

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Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

I don't know of many pistols with a 30-round magazine capacity, and I could empty a M-4 on semi-auto long before even the most proficient pistol person could manage one or two reloads.

I can empty my Sig with thirteen rounds in two seconds. It is not modified at all. Some of members of this board have seen in it person.

That's much faster than I could fire 13 rounds out of my AR-15.

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Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy I can empty my Sig with thirteen rounds in two seconds. It is not modified at all. Some of members of this board have seen in it person. That's much faster than I could fire 13 rounds out of my AR-15.

My point was that you couldn't fire 30 rounds out of your SIG quicker than someone with an AR-15 because you'd have to reload at least twice.

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Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

My point was that you couldn't fire 30 rounds out of your SIG quicker than someone with an AR-15 because you'd have to reload at least twice.

That's true...and my finger would get too tired.

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Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy That's true...and my finger would get too tired.

I was going to bet you $100 and then do this at the range;

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U-nUA52BS3c

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Posted by: Wolfman

I can bump my AK faster than you can shoot your Sig. Wonder which would be more accurate at 50 yards. KJ, I just realized you need to come back out here for a visit and bring your Sig.

Or maybe we can set up a Masscops "Spray and Pray Day".

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Posted by: Q5-TPR

I'd be careful challenging Killjoy to anything with a firearm. I have seen him in action many times. He's ok.

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Posted by: mikemac64

www.secondcitycop.blogspot.com

This guy has mucho scuttlebut on the Chicago situation.

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Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

I can bump my AK faster than you can shoot your Sig. Wonder which would be more accurate at 50 yards. KJ, I just realized you need to come back out here for a visit and bring your Sig.

I never said I was accurate...I just said I was fast. A while ago I had some Sig engineers gawking at how fast I can spray the DAK. Wolf, why would I want to bring my Sig...firing the Sig is work, firing my Garand is fun!

Q...thanks for the vote of confidence...avoid the sandstorms over there!

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Posted by: nirtallica

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q5-TPR I'd be careful challenging Killjoy to anything with a firearm. I have seen him in action many times. He's ok.

+1.

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Posted by: Killjoy

The the aforementioned blog:

Quote:

* Has anything that has come out of J-Fed's mouth been even remotely true yet? Or close to reality? Let's review: o fitness standards o uniform standards o same gun for everyone o 12 hour shifts o new cars o working computers o capable radios And now we're supposed to get rifles? Has anyone actually seen this "order" yet? Don't get us wrong, we'd love to see heavy weapons in the hands of trained coppers on the street each and every day. But let's look at a few of the stumbling blocks in our way here: * How many rifles? One per car? Five per district? Stored where? Transported where and how? * One comment said "15 years on and 90% or better on your ratings." All well and good - except under 20% of the Department has 15 years or more. And the last rating card we signed was years ago - they haven't rated anyone except civilians in at least 6 years, maybe more. * Are they training sergeants? Almost pointless - they better make a few hundred more so the rifles have a 50-50 chance of actually being on the street. * Tact and Gangs? Besides not having 15 years, what happens when Tact and Gangs are detailed out of the district to the west and south sides? Or to the parades? Or training days? Or sting day? Or they're wrapping up a bunch of warrants? * Only Specialized Units or Area Teams? Again, a waste of time if these teams are being detailed out. Plus, these teams have other jobs to do. Many times they aren't even reachable by radio. We know that we're going to get a bunch of comments saying crap like, "Give Jody and chance!" or "You're such a pessimist - this is the greatest thing in the world!" We're completely willing to give this a chance to work, but we've been here long enough to know how the City works and how the Department works. We haven't even covered the City bidding and City purchasing nightmares (this would be for new weapons, not refurbished M-16's or used M-4's). If the Department and the mayor wanted to give us some equalizers, there are at least five shotguns in each district already. One or two of them might actually work if you dust them off. Why not get those out? Of course, during the recent inventory, it was discovered that there were only 5 boxes of shells, each about 7 years old. UPDATE: As was pointed out in the comments - where do we train thousands of cops on rifles? The FBI range SWAT uses was shut down in February or March by either a judicial order or the feebs themselves after an activist brought in a bunch of "fragments" that he allegedly found at a nearby playground. Call us pessimists again, but we don't think the FBI range is long for this world in the current Illinois political climate.

Nice to see problems are the same everywhere....even with a 13,000 man department. Poor administrations seems to be the only constant in police work.

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