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Main Page A look at combat rifles
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: kwflatbed

The Associated Press

One of the biggest differences between Colt's M4 carbine and its competitors is the way the bullets are fed through the rifles. The HK416, XM8 and SCAR use a gas piston system to cycle the bullets automatically. The M4 uses "gas impingement," a method that uses a tube to push hot gas through key parts of the gun. This leaves residue behind, detractors say, and makes the M4 more prone to jamming. But Army officials and Colt executives say they've received no significant complaints from troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
M4: Colt Defense's M4 carbine is a direct descendant of the company's M16 first used during the Vietnam War. At 33.6 inches long and weighing 7 1/2 pounds when loaded, it is shorter and lighter than the M16 but shoots the same 5.56 mm round. (The round is about the size of an AAA battery.) The M4's compact design makes it ideal for troops traveling in Humvees or fighting in confined areas. An M4 costs about $1,500. The weapon is used by all the U.S. military branches.
HK416: Designed by Germany's Heckler & Koch, the HK 416 carbine is slightly heavier than the M4, but otherwise similar in appearance and feel. Heckler & Koch advertises its weapon as more rugged and accurate than the M4. At $1,425 each (2007 prices), the HK416 costs about the same as the M4. It also shoots a 5.56 round. Elite U.S. military units such as the anti-terrorist Delta Force are using the HK416. Norway selected the rifle last year for its military forces.
XM8: Also designed by Heckler & Koch, the XM8 weighs 8.3 pounds and fires 5.56 mm ammunition. Several years ago it was being pursued as a replacement for the M4s in the U.S. military's inventory. The project was halted in 2005, however, due to questions over how the program was being handled. No pricing data is available.
SCAR: The acronym stands for Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle. Made by Belgium's FN Herstal, two versions of the weapon — one fires the 5.56 round and another shoots a heaver 7.62 mm cartridge — are being purchased by U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla. The lighter SCAR weighs 8.5 pounds loaded. The command, which has its own budget for unique gear, says the SCARs are more durable and accurate than the M4. The command and FN Herstal are negotiating costs, but they expect the light model SCAR to cost about the same as an M4.

Wire Service

Posted by: Wolfman

M4:

HK416:

XM8:

SCAR:

Posted by: mpd61

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwflatbed

The Associated Press

One of the biggest differences between Colt's M4 carbine and its competitors is the way the bullets are fed through the rifles. But Army officials and Colt executives say they've received no significant complaints from troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
M4: The weapon is used by all the U.S. military branches.
HK416: Designed by Germany's Heckler & Koch, the HK 416 carbine is slightly heavier than the M4, but otherwise similar in appearance and feel.
XM8:
SCAR:

Wire Service

My take;

M4: No complaints, ain't broke= no need to move quickly to replace it!

HK416: Bushmaster already arguably makes their own version of this unnecessary "replacement" that is so "similar"

XM8: Gay, cancelled, get over it.

SCAR: Another smaller improved grandchild from the folks who brought us the FAL. Again, I see no leap forward in technology.

1. Go forward with 6.5 Grendell, all you would need is barrels and retro-fit of some M-16 mags.
2. Keep those M14's in the inventory, and purchase some SOCOM II versions too!

But then again, WTF do I know?

Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

One of the biggest differences between Colt's M4 carbine and its competitors is the way the bullets are fed through the rifles. The HK416, XM8 and SCAR use a gas piston system to cycle the bullets automatically. The M4 uses "gas impingement," a method that uses a tube to push hot gas through key parts of the gun. This leaves residue behind, detractors say, and makes the M4 more prone to jamming.

The "way the bullets are fed through the rifle" are identical....its called a magazine. The action is what is different...direct gas impingement vs. gas piston (i.e. the POF, SCAR, H&K 416), or short-stroke gas piston (leitner-wise). I guess I can't expect much from Associated Press.

This has become something of the "in" issue with everyone from local gun nuts to police departments to military units. Honestly, the reason that the military has not replaced the M16-series because nothing being offered is a significant leap forward in accuracy, killing power, reliability, or technology. Yes the M16-series has its share of quirks, foremost being that it requires regular maintainance and cleaning. Rifles with different actions are on average more reliable, but are they better enough to change over millions of rifles in inventory? Not only does the rifle have to be changed, but armorer's trained, spare parts stocks filled, all the training has to be rewritten and implemented, no small feat for armed services numbering in the millions. Not to mention throwing away all the experience gained through years of working with and firing the M16-series.

I own several AR-15's, including one POF (Gas Piston) upper. Is it good...yes...is it a quantum leap over my other AR's...no. In fact, given another chance, I probably wouldn't spend the grand I dropped to purchase it. I clean my rifles every time I shoot them, and I make no exception for the POF, so its big advantage, the ability to neglect it like an AK, goes unused. It is, however, faster and easier to clean. If I were fighting a guerrilla war in the White Mountains, I would take the POF over a conventional AR, but in reality I hardly notice the difference between the two, although the POF has a higher CDI (chicks dig it) factor. In the civilian/police world, I really think that a conventional AR is more than adequate.

With military units, especially special-forces units, which fire countless rounds in engagements, perhaps the advantages of a improved gas-system is worth the extra cost. The POF and H&K systems routes heat away from the receiver, making a receiver failure less likely, and some military units might not have the time to engage in regular cleaning (although I think most units find the time). The H&K 416 has received high marks, although I think their "improved" magazine is way too expensive and heavy, and not much of an improvement over conventional magazines (especially P-Mags). The SCAR has received some negative reports from special ops units, although I suppose that is natural with new weapon system.

Quote:

1. Go forward with 6.5 Grendell, all you would need is barrels and retro-fit of some M-16 mags.
2. Keep those M14's in the inventory, and purchase some SOCOM II versions too!

Unfortunately, it is not very likely they will replace the 5.56 round anytime. With adoption of the 5.56 77 grain, Special Ball Long Range by regular Army units, the military has a 5.56 round with excellent killing power out to 600-800 yards. It also requires no special magazines or re-barreling of the M16 rifles. The M14s being used as DMR's (Designated Marksman Rifles) are being phased out specially-equipped AR's SASS's (Semi Automatic Sniping System). One reason is that the M14-equipped troops draw more fire than other soldiers, because the rifle is so conspicuous. Another reason is lack of spare parts and difficulty equipping night-vision, lights, and the myriad of other gear that soldiers place on their rifles.

Its too bad, as I am a big fan of the old girl. Its also a shame about the 6.5mm Grendel, its ballistics are incredible!

Posted by: justanotherparatrooper

CRap...beat me to it Killjoy!...I always thought bullets were fed through the barrel

Posted by: resqjyw0

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherparatrooper

CRap...beat me to it Killjoy!...I always thought bullets were fed through the barrel

The entire projectile doesn't include the cartridge either.

Posted by: mpd61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy

Honestly, the reason that the military has not replaced the M16-series because nothing being offered is a significant leap forward in accuracy, killing power, reliability, or technology. .

Its too bad, as I am a big fan of the old girl. Its also a shame about the 6.5mm Grendel, its ballistics are incredible!

Again, I see no leap forward in technology.

1. Go forward with 6.5 Grendell, all you would need is barrels and retro-fit of some M-16 mags.
2. Keep those M14's in the inventory, and purchase some SOCOM II versions too!

But then again, WTF do I know?

KJ!!
Are you my brother? Are you my brother Rex?

Posted by: screamineagle

I 'll take a 416 in 6.5 grendel please!

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