MassCops - Massachusetts Law Enforcement Network, A Mass Police Web Portal

Massachusetts Law Enforcement Network

Massachusetts Police News, Information and Discussions on MassCops

Pages: 1

Main Page Of Terminal Ballistics...
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: Will Brink

Folks, one topic I don’t see covered here much is the issue of terminal ballistics. It’s an amazingly interesting science and one that is still hotly debated. I suppose many of you in LEO etc have more of a “real world” view of such things, that is: 'shoot BG, he goes down, sh*& must work fine for terminal ballistics' type attitude. Can’t blame you at all there. However, I get the impression some of you are interested in that topic, and thought this might be the place to start such a topic. Was not sure what section to post this.

Various theories exist, some of which have been debunked (or seemingly so), some have been growing, others are causing big debates. “energy dump” and Hydrostatic shock, The Big Hole Theory, and a concept of the “ballistic pressure wave” causing a yet unclear effect in the human body.

In fact there are entire scientific journals dedicated to this topic, and much of the research – as you would expect – comes out of the military, etc. I’m not an expert in this topic by any means, it’s an interest/hobby to me. In particular, as a civilian type, I am interested mostly in the terminal ballistics of handgun rnds, but I also try and pay attention to small arms (5.56, etc) and all that.

Anyway..I visit a lot of gun related forums, and the best of the bunch in terms of this topic I have seen is the Tactical Forums.

www.TacticalForums.com

For example, A Dr Michael Courtney is a proponent of this pressure wave effect, where as another well know ballistics researcher, a Dr Roberts, appears to think it’s total bunk. I tend to believe Dr Roberts due to his background and experience levels in this field.

A very interesting exchange between them and others for example can be found there, and I learned a ton by reading the exchanges.

I find this type of info very interesting. You might find it like watching paint dry. I will say, the tactical forums is generally made up of ex and current SOF as well as LEO and others. A real NO BS bunch over there.

Posted by: mpd61

Well then...
Since I am an expert in the field of ballistics, let me say this;
There are too many variables in human physiology to apply "terminal ballistics" with any scientific conclusions to human shootings.

Some humans will stop fighting with a .25 acp in the torso, and some humans will keep fighting with a portion of their heart torn away by a .45 acp round. And there are several results all over the scale.

In the end it's bullet placement (Spine/brain) that will decide things wayyyyyy more than "terminal ballistics". World's scariest police shootings 2 showed a little fella shot by a trooper right in the belly by a .45 acp round, and he just stood there and fought with the much larger officer until the ambulance arrived about five minutes later.

Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

Absolutely, 100% true. Ballistics is as much as art as a science. You can do as many scientific tests as you want, and it still only gives you an idea of what a round is capable of in the real world. Shot placement is the key to rapidly stopping a threat.

Posted by: kttref

Why are you coming here promoting another website anyway? Haven't you figured out yet that promoting your things doesn't fly here?

Posted by: Will Brink

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

Why are you coming here promoting another website anyway? Haven't you figured out yet that promoting your things doesn't fly here?

What on earth are you talkng about? Is posting URLs to other forums that have info of interest an issue here? Why not attempt to actually add something of value to the thread vs simply flaming me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpd61

Well then...
Since I am an expert in the field of ballistics, let me say this;
There are too many variables in human physiology to apply "terminal ballistics" with any scientific conclusions to human shootings.

Have you read Patrick, Urey W.:"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness." U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1989.?

Altough a bit dated, as far as know, his conclusions, etc are stll considered solid and legit, via conversations I have had with Dr. Roberts and others in the field. His paper does address your specific comments, and my favorite line from this report is:

"Thousands of books, movies and television shows have educated the general population that when shot, one is supposed to fall down."

Full paper can be downloaded here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Posted by: kwflatbed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Brink

What on earth are you talkng about? Is posting URLs to other forums that have info of interest an issue here? Why not attempt to actually add something of value to the thread vs simply flaming me.

This is no way to address a post from a moderator,like I said before don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Posted by: Will Brink

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwflatbed

This is no way to address a post from a moderator,like I said before don't let the door hit you on the way out.

When I am insulted, and insulted/flamed for no particular reason, I will respond. I would hope a mod would be a little more professional minus random flames. If I am not allowed to defend myself, then ban me.

Posted by: resqjyw0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Brink

For no particular reason? There is a thread, that you started I might add, that explains why you're being given some crap.

You hope the mod would be more professional? What isn't professional about her asking you a couple questions? She was doing her job as a moderator. Apparently you haven't got a clue what flaming is. Are you one of those types that runs to a supervisor to file a complaint because an officer wouldn't let you off on a warning for speeding?

This isn't your board where you decide what goes. When you're advised against doing something, you best take the advice and change your tune. If you still refuse, I'm sure someone would gladly ban you especially since you offered it up.

Posted by: Will Brink

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

Why are you coming here promoting another website anyway?

Because I thought this would be a topic of interest and relavence to this forum, beng frequented by LEOs

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

Haven't you figured out yet that promoting your things doesn't fly here?

Nothing in the above URL has anything to do with "my" things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by resqjyw0

I felt she was going out of her way to be insulting, you feel she asked "a couple of questions." I have now gone back and answered those questions, even though they were not asked as real questions, but thrown out as insults for no particular reason other than to bust balls. I never made any claims I get to decide what goes, I said I will defend myself when insulted.

Posted by: kwflatbed

Enough is enough Will Brink your wish is granted Bye Bye

Posted by: Sniper

Wham. Hahahahahahahahaa

Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

Enough is enough Will Brink your wish is granted Bye Bye

LOL! And take your stupid nutritional supplements with you!

ma police, boston ma police, massachusetts police, massachusetts police, mass state police, mass police, ma, mass, massachusetts, massachusetts, massachutes, massachusetts law, massachusetts polece, police, officer, police officer, cops, police gear, law enforcement, police duty gear, state police, sheriff, law, police supply, police agency directory, police agency, police department, traffic officer, police dept, state trooper, dispatcher, massachusetts county sheriff, massachusetts sheriff, massachusetts department of corrections, ma doc, doc, dept of corrections, police information, civil service, ma civil service, massachusetts crime, police training, police academy, ma police academy, massachusetts officers, masscop, masscops, mpa, bpa, ibpoa, police association, massachusetts police news, massachusetts crime news, mass most wanted, police career information, police patrol, police administration, police books, crime scene training, police discussion, crime discussions, cops

About MassCops, the home for Massachusetts law enforcement.

The Massachusetts Law Enforcement Network opened in 1998 and is now a part of the New England Police Network The site is a pro-police discussion forum intended for sworn police officers and civilian law enforcement officials as well as those interested in pursuing a career in law enforcement here in Massachusetts.

The goal of The Massachusetts Law Enforcement Network is to provide an informal network of law enforcement officials here in Massachusetts for educational and informational purposes.

The forum covers many topics such as Police Related News Articles, Agency & Profession Discussions, Police Training as well as Law Enforcement Career Information.

The Massachusetts Law Enforcement Network and The New England Police Network (NEPN) and it's network sites are privately owned websites/domains and are not affiliated with or endorsed by any government association or agency.

MassCops (masscops.com) and (masscop.com) are privately owned are not affiliated with or endorsed by the Massachusetts Coalition of Police (masscop.org)

3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 49 50 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108