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Main Page Mass Resident with Out Of State License
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: Badge

I know there is no grace period to obtain a Mass license, and therefore if you can establish someone as a Mass resident and they have an out of state license, it is 90/10 all day long.

I'm just curious how other officers handle this situation. I usually give verbal warnings because most of the time they think they have more time and it is genuinely an honest mistake. With this particular situation in my city if I took any enforcement action, I would get a lot of crap. I've run into a couple people that just refuse to change their license over.

My favorite is when you grab someone who just picked up their kid from a local school and they claim they are still a "Legal resident" of another state. I ask them for their child's name so I can report them to the school for a residency check, they generally change their tune very quickly.

Posted by: Robert35

If they are a Jerk, Lug them. 30 days from the day you establish your self as a resident our state, if you are a Student attending school then they can drive on an out of State License. Military have a longer period. Also check on the Reg when they hand it to you if it is Reg to them with a in state address then there is your evidence. (will show the date they registered the mv) Good luck

Posted by: Badge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert35

30 days from the day you establish your self as a resident our state, if you are a Student attending school then they can drive on an out of State License.

Students are exempt, Military has 45 days, other than that there is NO grace period. Once you establish residency you are longer supposed to be driving on an out of state license. On a MV Reg you have 30 days.

It is much more common to see enforcement in the situation that the operator is from another country, has established residency, and is still driving on their foreign license. I have never seen or heard of someone arrested for driving on an out of state license as a MA resident.

Although this would fall under 90/10 I think 90/8 would be more appropriate were it written to include anything other than MA licenses. I want to know if there is anyone out there who has/would arrest on this and get a little explanation.
Thanks.

Posted by: j809

You have no days to get a MA license when you move to Mass, you only have 30 days for Reg and 0 days for license.

Posted by: Sniper

809, I like your whip........... hahahahaa

Posted by: Badge

Quote:

Originally Posted by j809

You have no days to get a MA license when you move to Mass, you only have 30 days for Reg and 0 days for license.

Right, but how do YOU enforce that. I know what CAN be done, but not what is most commonly done. If someone has run into this before, help me out.

Posted by: kttref

See in CT we're nice. We give you 30 days to change your license and 60 to change your reg...why it isn't both the same is beyond me...If someone is outside that range (depending how far outside that range) it's usually just a verbal and "get it fixed." We see them again it's a ticket.

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badge

Right, but how do YOU enforce that. I know what CAN be done, but not what is most commonly done. If someone has run into this before, help me out.

1. you can try asking them they maybe ignorant to the law and tell you where they live

2. if you pull them over and they have a MA registration registered to them on their M/V coming back to a residence in Mass

3. subpoena their tax return records and find out what state they claim the live in (Just kidding of course)

4. students are suppose to have a decal from the college or university they attend. In my 13 years stopping cars I have never seen one nor have I ever heard of any college or university implementing it. however it is required in the Ch 90 MGLs.

5. you can google people search and find out if they have a residence in Mass. The magistrate will probably though your cite as well as you out of court but its worth a try.

6. you can say F#@K it!!! Until Massachusetts gets serious about their traffic enforcement I will sit in Dunkin Donuts for the rest of my shift.

Posted by: j809

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper

809, I like your whip........... hahahahaa

It has blue lights on it too.

Posted by: TopCop24

Why are you stressing out over a 90-10. You're telling me that there is nothing else out there for you to find than people who have out of state licenses that live in Mass?? Please don't tell me that you're also the same person that would hit someone with the $1000 fine for subsequent 90-9.

Posted by: wgciv

Attitude is Everything!

Posted by: Badge

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

See in CT we're nice. We give you 30 days to change your license and 60 to change your reg...

I know, I got pulled over in CT once and they gave be a hug and basket full of sunshine and rainbows! MA has laws in place to protect their residents from someone who might be pretending to be from another state to save a few bucks on insurance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Wampanoag

1. you can try asking them they maybe ignorant to the law and tell you where they live

That is my current way of dealing with it. Even if they tell me that they live in MA I still just give them a verbal and send them on their way. The issue is that I run into the same people often and they give me the "I'll do it when I get around to it..." because they are used to just getting a verbal warning. I'm getting to the point where I wouldn't mind locking them up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Wampanoag

2. if you pull them over and they have a MA registration registered to them on their M/V coming back to a residence in Mass

Right, but how would you enforce it once you establish residency. If I want ways to establish residency I'll read 90/3.5!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopCop24

Why are you stressing out over a 90-10. You're telling me that there is nothing else out there for you to find than people who have out of state licenses that live in Mass?? Please don't tell me that you're also the same person that would hit someone with the $1000 fine for subsequent 90-9.

When I stop a car I'm thorough. Which is why many of my stops for something small turn into much more. Whether it leads to a drug seizure, or a summons/arrest for 90/10... I do my job. If chapter 90 is so trivial, I'd love to know what your typical shift consists of...

Oh yeah, and not a single person out of 8 replies has even TRIED to answer my question. I know there is no grace period, I know how to establish residency, I know who is exempt and who is not. I don't care if YOU have better things to do, because I don't!

If you were to give more than a verbal warning, what would you do?

Also, if you have enforced this other than a verbal warning, what did you do?

Posted by: TopCop24

[quote
When I stop a car I'm thorough. Which is why many of my stops for something small turn into much more. Whether it leads to a drug seizure, or a summons/arrest for 90/10... I do my job. If chapter 90 is so trivial, I'd love to know what your typical shift consists of...

quote]

I'm not going to get into a pissing and moaning match with you about this. You already said guys from your job would give you a hard time for it, so why would it be any different here?? My shift is anything but typical so i'll break it down for you. Two of us cover 77 miles of highway that contains 15 cities and towns, within those 15 cities and towns there are 492 miles. Of those cities and towns four of them have full time departments. Two of those full time departments only employ 1 officer on the mid shift, so guess who gets called for backup?? When I respond to calls in the eleven towns who don't have anyone on for the midshift, i'm lucky if my portable OR my cruiser's radio has service. I also find time in my shift to make my share of stops that result in OUIs, drug seizures, suspensions etc. Am I complaining about my job?? Absolutely NOT. There's a reason why 16,000 people took the test. I have the greatest job ever. No shift is ever the same

Posted by: kttref

Best part about this job...no shift is ever the same...Well said TopCop.

Posted by: wgciv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badge

Oh yeah, and not a single person out of 8 replies has even TRIED to answer my question.

Perhaps this is because you have already answered your own question. You know the laws and you understand your options. So, what exactly do you want answered. One of the great things about this job is the ability of the individual officer to exercise his/her discretion. With the issue at hand, I would say that situation dictates. You have already explained and warned, which would probably be the course of action by most here. Your situation changes when, as you say, the warned individuals continually fail to heed your warnings. Again, it is back to discretion. You can: A) Allow these individuals to continue pissing on your boots, or B) You can summons and tow next time you encounter them. Why ask what others would do in regards to such a simple situation? Embrace your discretion!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badge

This probably isn't the best attitude to have in a place where you are seeking advice. There are many seasoned, experienced, knowledgable Officers/Troopers on this board that could prove very helpful to you down the road. Shitting on them while they attempt to answer your vague question wouldn't be advised.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

I'll answer it with what I used to do....summons & tow. If it warranted (and I cant remember a time in 20 years it did), it was an arrest. Surprisingly, by issuing a summons a few times I discovered this wasn't the first time the person had been charged.

It might be a different world today but I remember what one of my MV law instructors said back in the 80's. Dont let anybody drive away who shouldn't be driving (90-9; 90-10; 90-24) because if they crash, they will say YOU told them it was ok too drive away or you stopped them and let them go. I'll take the extra time to do the paperwork. Sometimes maybe it was a mistake that they forgot but you know what.....How many people have claimed they never got the suspension notice from the RMV either?? The Postal Service must have thousands of those letters hidden away somewhere just for fun!

Posted by: Rock

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCTrooper

How many people have claimed they never got the suspension notice from the RMV either?? The Postal Service must have thousands of those letters hidden away somewhere just for fun!

Thats too funny. Very true.

Ok, here's another way to handle 90-10....

For starters we all know the results in court are $100 to $150 fine case dismissed and this is prior to arrainment so it never makes it on the BOP. I've never seen it there....has anyone else? There is also no subsequent offense. Sooooooo...
Warning for 90-10 so it still gets on the KQ and you can still tow ($100 + for the tow), and EVERY (and I mean every) little civil fine you can come up with to get the gig in the range of 4 to 5 hundred beans. Mission accomplished:
1. Bigger fine than the court would give.
2. The clown is not driving anymore
3. You're not off the road wasting time with a foolish summons.

whew...its time for my latte

Posted by: Badge

Quote:

Originally Posted by wgciv

I agree that there is a wealth of knowledge and experience amongst the members of this board, but there are also people just looking to get their post count up with nothing to contribute. When someone posts incorrect information, or repeats information that has already been posted it takes the thread off track and I am less likely to get an answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopCop24

You already said guys from your job would give you a hard time for it, so why would it be any different here??

These are guys who care more about taxpayers perception of the police than they do about enforcing laws. If it were up to them it would be verbal warning for everything. Just as every shift is different, it changes even more depending on the officer and their surroundings. In my area on day shift if I want to actually do work, sometimes chapter 90 is the only way. Somone else may get opportunities for something better, but 90/10 could be the biggest thing I can charge in a typical day. I completely agree with wcgiv on using discretion, but this is something I have yet to deal with, so I'm just trying get some idea of how other officers in different areas have handled this in the past.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock

Warning for 90-10 so it still gets on the KQ and you can still tow ($100 + for the tow), and EVERY (and I mean every) little civil fine you can come up with to get the gig in the range of 4 to 5 hundred beans. Mission accomplished:
1. Bigger fine than the court would give.
2. The clown is not driving anymore
3. You're not off the road wasting time with a foolish summons.

If you would though, answer me these:

What legal right do you have to seize someone's property without criminal charges (due process of law)? {Think non contraband property, not the empty crack pipe or remnant roach, and search warrants excluded} (The obvious answer is "they are unlicensed". However, you are warning in a criminal matter which prevents the "accused" from being afforded their right to due process of law under the 5th & 14th Amendments. Now, we know the same procedure happens daily for unregistered vehicles, but remember, that has been deemed a civil matter, where civil matters are held to different evidenciary rules, procedures and a lower burden of proof and Chapter 90 Section 9 clearly states "no vehicle shall remain upon" which I would argue gives tacit statutory right to seize (aka tow, hold, remove) the vehicle. Would the same action work if it was an unlicensed gun owner? Do you hold the gun, without charges, hoping they return licensed to get the gun? How many department heads would approve that?)

Does the car get towed to their house or the storage yard? If to the house, doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of the stop?

Does it get held until proof of license is shown?

Would you wait to allow the driver time to have a licensed operator arrive on scene instead?

Im not trying to bust your stones, really I'm not.

The same issue happened 10 years ago when I was an FTO. The new guy wanted to follow your route. I advised against it. He asked the Sgt later who spent years in the DA's office. He told him, never, ever seize someone's property in a criminal matter without a warrant or filing charges.

Has anyone seen a case where someone pushed the issue of being towed but not charged with 90-10?

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Tow em and let god sort them out

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCTrooper

Has anyone seen a case where someone pushed the issue of being towed but not charged with 90-10?

Operator requested tow

Posted by: Badge

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCTrooper

Does the car get towed to their house or the storage yard? If to the house, doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of the stop?

I only tow on 90/10 if the car is in a bad spot, or I can articulate it was in a bad spot. If it is not impeding traffic and/or is legally parked it can remain. Without a licensed driver to move the vehicle to a better spot, it should be towed. Of course this only applies if there isn't a licensed driver in the car, and the car won't be moved in a timely manner. As long as circumstances allow, I offer to let them have it towed to their house because the only way I could justify towing it is simply to remove it from the bad spot. If they made a law that to register a car you had to be licensed, it would sure make things easier.

Posted by: kttref

Same with us Badge. We only tow if it is "impeding traffic" or cannot be driven away by a licensed driver. Although we got some flack from a Commissioner a little under a year ago, because we towed one of his workers vehicles for no license...and there was a parking lot nearby. We are not instructed to park bad guys' car if possible...

My husband's department tows EVERYTHING.

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

My husband's department tows EVERYTHING.

Because sometimes the only justice after the CWOF/Dismissed/Nolo Contendere is knowing how much the tow and storage fees costs the operator.

Posted by: j809

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badge

So you leave the car, so the guy who is unlicensed can come back, drive the car away, get in an accident and kill someone, but because you didn't tow it to the proper storage yard, you and your department are liable. Shortcuts lead to lots of problems. If I tow the car to the yard, I know I have done my job.

Posted by: kttref

Quote:

Originally Posted by j809

Can you talk to my commissioners?

Posted by: mtc

Let them park it in a store lot and then call the company that does trespass tows there?

I dunno,,, TUI.....

Posted by: kttref

haha TUI....I'm loving it.

Posted by: Rock

USMC,
Just getting a chance to respond to your bevy of questions now. You pretty much answered your own questions so this isn't hard. The tow is to the tow yard and can obviously only be picked up by a licensed operator unless they want to show up with another tow truck and tow it away. You can't leave the vehicle on the roadway (it's rare that the stop will be in a legal spot) with no properly licensed operator (tow). No ones property is being siezed. Wrong term. There propety is being tempereraly held until all required documentation for there PRIVILEGE to drive is in good standing. Similar to the tow for unregistered...I don't think i would say the vehicle is being siezed. Siezed indicates to me they aren't getting the vehicle back

Posted by: wgciv

Quote:

Originally Posted by j809

How is this a shortcut? I think it is more of an option. According to your logic.. perhaps you should always arrest for 90/10, because if you don't then the operator may leave your stop and operate another vehicle. If he/she does this then you are not doing your job? Your job was complete when you disrupted and discontinued the unlicensed operation and summonsed. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I too tow almost every time. On a few occassions I have left the vehicle legally parked, but it was in the process of arrests unrelated to Chapter 90. Even better when the unlicensed/revoked/suspended operator is the RO.. plates confiscated and returned to RMV, registration then revoked!

Posted by: j809

I summons for 90/10 all the time, I can't remember when I arrested for a 90/10 but i tow EVERY time, unless there is another licensed person in the vehicle. I do not leave the car there, I take it out of the equation therefore it can never come back to haunt me as it is towed at the tow company and is now on them when they release it.

Posted by: wgciv

Quote:

Originally Posted by j809

I summons for 90/10 all the time, I can't remember when I arrested for a 90/10 but i tow EVERY time, unless there is another licensed person in the vehicle. I do not leave the car there, I take it out of the equation therefore it can never come back to haunt me as it is towed at the tow company and is now on them when they release it.

Again, I'm in agreement with you and was just playing devil's advocate. When I encounter a 90/10 or 90/23, I usually allow the operator to decide whether it will be summons or arrest. My choice is always to summons, but if they want to play the name game or give me a hard time.. they make the team.

Posted by: TopCop24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wgciv

I'm in the same boat. 90-10 always a summons, 90-23 they always make my team if they're revoked for HTO, suspended for BT refusal, or suspended for failure to pay child support (i've had alot of those recently). First offense OUI where they blow i'll typically summons based upon their attitude. Subsequent OUIs where they're suspended for a significant period of time makes my team too.

Posted by: Badge

Quote:

Originally Posted by j809

It can never come back to haunt you. Even if you just leave the car there and tell them not to drive it, you are covered. I can see it now, I follow a guy home and tow his Wife's car out of the driveway because she might let him drive it... If you let them leave with another licensed driver they could always pull over a mile down the road and swap, but it's not on you at that point.

Summons him and make them aware that they cannot operate a motor vehicle and even the most blood-thirsty of lawyers can't touch you if they decide to drive anyway.

Posted by: j809

You are also liable if anything happens to the vehicle, happened before, to me once and I got in trouble as I did him a favor and someone slashed his tires. I didnt tow it, left in the school parking lot and therefore we were liable. I am not saying tow it out of the driveway, you can't tow it off private property and you have no authority to leave on someone else's property. Why are we going back and forth with these semantics, just tow the car and you have nothing to worry about it. Are you that friendly with this person that you are willing to risk your livelihood for them?

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Quote:
Originally Posted by j809

Quote:

I guess that was my point. Issuing a warning for a criminal matter then taking someone's car just didn't jibe to me. I would argue, if putting on your lights to stop someone is considered a seizure by the courts, then impounding someone's car might also be called the same by the courts, if pushed by some lawyer. I hate to see things that someone might get jammed up for.

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Quote:

Originally Posted by wgciv

+1

I also see if they have 40 dollars to bail them self out. (kidding) If they have to go to the hospital because they got into an accident they get a summons. In my naive years, I have been many of times sitting in the ER hospital for hours over a stupid misdemeanor thats going to get dismissed most likely by our courts....

Posted by: Badge

Quote:

Originally Posted by j809

You are also liable if anything happens to the vehicle, happened before, to me once and I got in trouble as I did him a favor and someone slashed his tires. I didnt tow it, left in the school parking lot and therefore we were liable.

That is BS. You can't be held liable for a legally parked vehicle. If you actually "got in trouble" then you have a nice little greivance on your hands.

You have more coverage not towing than you do for impounding a properly registered and insured vehicle that is legally parked! If you arrest, towing is good all day.

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