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Arizona Bill Allows Guns in School

(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: kwflatbed

(Phoenix, Arizona) Out of concern that existing policies do not provide adequate protection, Arizona Senate Majority Leader Thayer Verschoor, R-Gilbert, and Sen. Karen Johnson, R-Mesa, have proposed allowing concealed-weapons permit holders to take guns on school grounds.
The proposal, Senate Bill 1214, would exempt concealed-carry permit holders from a state law that bars individuals from knowingly carrying deadly weapons onto school property.

If it becomes law, the measure would allow teachers and anyone else with a valid permit to carry their weapon onto the grounds of any public or private K-12 school, college or university in the state.

Supporters say the measure would provide an additional ring of security on campuses hit with a string of shootings in recent years. The most recent of which was last year's at Virginia Tech, which left 33 dead. The shootings have come in spite of heightened campus security and policies that are increasingly aimed at scrubbing any and all weapons from school grounds.
Obviously, gun control measures to keep weapons out of schools simply haven't worked. Even so, gun-control advocates are uncomfortable with the proposed measure. Expect heated debate.


http://interested-participant.blogspot.com/


Posted by: PaulKersey

Between Sheriff Joe, and this bill, Arizona is looking better every day.


Posted by: kwflatbed

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulKersey View Post
Between Sheriff Joe, and this bill, Arizona is looking better every day.
And this also: http://www.masscops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46243


Posted by: PaulKersey

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwflatbed View Post
Oh Man, not to mention the area departments forming their own border teams... and better weather.


Posted by: PC Comms

Having a 9 y/o daughter going to school, I would have to say that I would feel better knowing that there might be that extra little protection in shooting incident. I think the only thing that I, as a parent, would like to see is some sort of additional instruction for those wishing to carry a weapon on school grounds. A certain degree of marksman skills should have to be demonstrated as well as taking a class on stress control and situation evaluation.

The sad thing about this situation is that if, God forbid, some poor teacher one day does have to defend themselves or their students from a kid carrying a gun, some sue happy parent will go after the teacher, the school and whomever else they can think of. I'm sure that they will claim that their "precious" little snot nosed kid would "never have harmed anybody" or that they were only "crying out for help" and said teacher denied them of that help. God damned "not my kid" syndrome is what is destroying society these days.

What ever happened to the good old days when the cop on the corner threw you a beating and brought you home just so your old man could throw you another one because the cop had to tune you up? It made you a better person, built some character and no NCIC # following you around for the rest of your life. Best of all, parents believed it when someone told them that their kid was acting like a little shit head and... they did something to correct it. Ahhh, the good old days.


Posted by: resqjyw0

By RANDAL C. ARCHIBOLD,
The New York Times
Posted: 2008-03-05 11:06:55


Visitors look at a makeshift memorial to the victims of the April 2007 massacre at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. That and other campus shootings prompted lawmakers in some states to consider allowing people to carry firearms on campuses.



State Senator Karen S. Johnson
of Arizona is the sponsor of a bill
permitting firearms on campuses.


PHOENIX (March 5) - Horrified by recent campus shootings, a state lawmaker here has come up with a proposal in keeping with the Taurus .22-caliber pistol tucked in her purse: Get more guns on campus.

The lawmaker, State Senator Karen S. Johnson, has sponsored a bill, which the Senate Judiciary Committee approved last week, that would allow people with a concealed weapons permit — limited to those 21 and older here — to carry their firearms at public colleges and universities. Concealed weapons are generally not permitted at most public establishments, including colleges.

Ms. Johnson, a Republican from Mesa, said she believed that the recent carnage at Northern Illinois University could have been prevented or limited if an armed student or professor had intercepted the gunman. The police, she said, respond too slowly to such incidents and, besides, who better than the people staring down the barrel to take action?

She initially wanted her bill to cover all public schools, kindergarten and up, but other lawmakers convinced her it stood a better chance of passing if it were limited to higher education.

“I feel like our kindergartners are sitting there like sitting ducks,” Ms. Johnson said last week when the bill passed the committee by a 4-to-3 vote.

This is a generally gun-friendly state, where people are allowed to carry a weapon on their hip without a permit as long as people can see it. Even so, Ms. Johnson acknowledges that her views come from the far right — she recently described herself, half-jokingly, she says, as a “right-wing wacko.”

Still, the proposal has troubled advocates of gun control here and elsewhere because it appears to be gaining popularity and has fed long-smoldering debates over restrictions on carrying firearms.

Since the Virginia Tech killings last April, other states have weighed similar legislation, to the disbelief of opponents, who note that the odds of lethal attacks are small, despite the publicity they attract.

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a Washington nonprofit organization, said 15 states were considering legislation that would authorize or make it easier for people to carry guns on school or college campuses under certain conditions. Those states include Alabama, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan and Virginia, according to the center, but it considers the Arizona proposal particularly egregious because it would not only allow students and faculty to carry such weapons, but staff members as well.

Utah, the organization said, is the only state with a law that expressly allows people with a concealed-weapon permit to carry guns on college campuses. That law, adopted in 2004 and upheld by Utah’s Supreme Court in 2006, arose out of concern that a state law allowing concealed weapons was not being enforced on college campuses.

The critics of such laws predict that they would cause more problems, including making it hard for the police to sort a dangerous gunman from a crowd of others with guns. They also argue that the guns would make it easier for people barely out of adolescence, or perhaps emotionally troubled, to respond lethally to typical campus frustrations like poor grades or failed romances.

Fred Boice, president of the Arizona Board of Regents, which oversees the state’s three public universities, said he sympathized with people concerned about campus safety. In October 2002, a nursing student at the University of Arizona in Tucson who was failing his classes shot and killed three professors before killing himself.

But Mr. Boice said he believed security and a system of alerting people about crises had been improved since then, and he worried that disputes best handled by campus security could quickly turn deadly with more guns on campus.

“I grew up in the country and a lot of people had guns,” Mr. Boice said. “But my father said never carry a gun unless you are prepared to kill somebody, and I believe that.”

Proponents concede the proposal could face a fight, even in this state’s Republican-controlled Legislature. The police chiefs at Arizona’s universities and several law enforcement groups have condemned the bill.

“This is a very polarizing issue,” said John Wentling, vice president of the Arizona Citizens Defense League, a gun-rights group that has pushed for the bill.

Even if Ms. Johnson’s bill eventually passes both chambers, it will probably take some convincing for Gov. Janet Napolitano, a Democrat, to sign it. Ms. Napolitano rejected a bill a few years ago that would have lifted a prohibition on carrying loaded firearms into bars, restaurants and other places that serve alcohol.

Ms. Johnson’s proposal has gotten a mixed reception on the campuses.

Jason Lewis, 23, an aerospace engineering major at the University of Arizona, said he was mugged twice on campus last year, at knife point and at gunpoint. He now has a concealed-weapons permit and carries his gun everywhere he can.

“It would at least let me protect myself,” said Mr. Lewis, one of a few students to testify in support of the bill at a recent hearing. “If word gets out students are arming themselves, criminals will be, like, ‘Maybe we should back off.’ It will be a deterrent.”

But Cole Hickman, a student at Arizona State University in Tempe, said he had sought to rally opposition to the bill, concerned that, among other things, it would further jeopardize people during a mass shooting. Proponents of the bill, Mr. Hickman said, underestimate the difficulty in shooting a live target in a chaotic episode.

“If another student in the room or a teacher had a gun and opened fire they may hurt other students,” he said, “because unlike police officers, concealed-weapon permit holders are not necessarily well-trained in shooting in crowds and reacting to those kinds of situations.”

Ms. Johnson is not fazed by the skeptics.

“We are not the wild, wild West like people think we are,” she said. “But people are more independent thinkers here when it comes to security.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/us...us&oref=slogin




Posted by: kwflatbed

By The Associated Press

OKLAHOMA CITY — After strong protests, Oklahoma Senate leaders decided Monday to shelve a bill to allow military veterans and others with firearms training to carry concealed weapons on college campuses.
Sen. Mike Johnson, a Republican, said he and Sen. Johnnie Crutchfield, a Democrat, made a joint decision to leave the bill off the agenda of the committee that would debate the measure.
According to Crutchfield, he and Johnson ''couldn't agree'' to hear the bill.
''The bottom line is the bill will not be considered this session,'' he said.
University presidents, faculty members and students had loudly opposed the measure, which sponsors said would improve campus security. Educators said it would have the opposite effect.
University of Oklahoma President David Boren had argued the bill would hurt recruitment of students and faculty. It also would pose a dilemma for police trying to determine whether a person wielding a weapon was a ''deranged gunman or someone who thinks he is doing good vigilante work.''
Rep. Jason Murphey, a Republican, had introduced the campus gun bill. He said college officials used fear tactics against his measure, and he disputed their claim that it would have increased security problems.
Murphey and others argued that properly trained people with concealed handguns could avert deadly episodes like one last year that left 33 dead, counting the shooter, at Virginia Tech.
''If we can't trust our veterans, who can we trust?'' he asked.

Wire Service


Posted by: MARINECOP

CINCINNATI, Ohio (CNN) -- "Would you rather just sit there and cower underneath a desk when someone executes you or would you rather have a chance to defend your life? That's what it really boils down to."
Michael Flitcraft says students should be allowed to protect themselves from potential killers.





Michael Flitcraft, a 23-year-old sophomore at the University of Cincinnati, has become a leading advocate for college students to carry weapons on campus. He's an organizer for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, a grass-roots organization that was formed after last year's Virginia Tech massacre that left 32 college students and professors dead.
The group boasts more than 25,000 members.
Standing on the Cincinnati campus, Flitcraft calmly explained he is licensed to carry a weapon in Ohio. He wants to carry his gun on campus to defend himself from potential killers, but by law he can't.
"To me it makes no sense that I can defend myself legally over there," he said, pointing to the city streets. "But I am a felon if I step on the grass over here." Watch a growing movement for guns on campus »
The issue of guns on campuses has intensified over the last year in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings and picked up again after the more recent killings at Northern Illinois University. Lawmakers in at least nine states are considering legislation to allow guns on campus. Other states have struck down legislation.
Utah is the only state to allow weapons at all public universities. Colorado allows students at universities to carry weapons, except the main university campus in Boulder. In Virginia, Blue Ridge Community College allows students with a proper concealed-weapons permit to be armed. See the status of guns on campus »
For many, allowing college students to carry a gun is a tricky and complex issue.
"I don't think the answer to bullets flying is to send more bullets flying," said Gene Ferrara, the police chief at the University of Cincinnati. "My belief is we ought to be focusing on what we do to prevent the shooting from starting."
Ferrara was a Cincinnati cop for more than a dozen years before he became chief of police at the university. He also said that there are practical concerns from a law enforcement perspective: If you're responding to the scene of a shooting, how do you sort out who is the bad guy and who is the heroic student with a permit?
"The other side of that, I shoot everybody with a gun who doesn't have a uniform on and I then I end up shooting somebody who was a citizen with a carry permit," Ferrara said.


He says education and outreach are key and that providing students with safe and anonymous ways to report suspicious behavior can go a long way in preventing violence. "All of the research shows someone knew before the shooting started that the shooting was going to happen."
At the University of Cincinnati, most of the students who spoke to CNN said the idea of guns on campus scares them. "I think that it is completely absurd," said senior Jacob Metz.
Freshman Lauren Reams added, "It shocks me."
Security officials insist that young adults are safer on campus than just about anywhere else. Since the so-called Texas Tower shootings at the University of Texas in 1966 when 17 people were killed, there have been about a dozen shootings at colleges or universities.
At Weber State University in Utah where students can carry concealed weapons, professor Ron Holt said a weapon provides added protection from potential gunmen. "I see carrying a concealed firearm as a kind of life insurance policy; 99.99 times you will never need it," he said.
Flitcraft and other students across the nation who support gun rights say they won't give up. Students for Concealed Carry on Campus has established a page on the social network site Facebook. They don't want all students to be armed; what they're pushing for is for students 21 and older who are licensed gun owners to have the right to carry guns on campus.




The group is busy planning a protest for later this month in which students who support guns on campus will come to school wearing empty holsters.
"What is a better situation: Someone coming in and shooting in a classroom [or] someone in that classroom having a chance to defend their life and take out that threat?" Flitcraft said.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/14/campus.guns/index.html


Posted by: resqjyw0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Ferrara View Post
Ferrara was a Cincinnati cop for more than a dozen years before he became chief of police at the university. He also said that there are practical concerns from a law enforcement perspective: If you're responding to the scene of a shooting, how do you sort out who is the bad guy and who is the heroic student with a permit?
If you worked the streets in the big city of Cincinnati for "a dozen years," I would hope you would have the experience and training to answer that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Ferrara View Post
"The other side of that, I shoot everybody with a gun who doesn't have a uniform on and I then I end up shooting somebody who was a citizen with a carry permit," Ferrara said.
You didn't say that did you? You were an officer for 12 years where there are people that can legally carry concealed and that's how you go about an active shooter situation? If they don't have a uniform on, they must be the bad guy? You're an embarrassment.


Posted by: frank

While I think it's a great idea - isn't there a federal law that says you cannot carry on K-12 property anyway?


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank View Post
While I think it's a great idea - isn't there a federal law that says you cannot carry on K-12 property anyway?
The HR 218 law states it does not override state or local prohibitions from carrying in certain places. If a state allows concealed carry in a school, then you're okay. If it does not, then HR 218 is meaningless.


Posted by: frank

Right, but in terms of the general non-LEO population...


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank View Post
Right, but in terms of the general non-LEO population...
Gun laws are generally left to the states; the only federal prohibition I know of concerns federal buildings and facilities (Social Security offices, etc.);

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...0----000-.html

EDIT: We do the daily detail at the local Social Security office, and the notice concerning prohibition of weapons specifically emphasizes that state-issued gun permits do not supercede the federal law.


Posted by: frank

Nevermind - I found what I was talking about...it's 18 USC 922(q)(2) - it forbids the presence of a firearm in a school unless authorized by the state. I had it confused with the whole post office issue.

Quote:
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm -

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

(iii) that is -

(I) not loaded; and

(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.





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