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Main Page Worcester Police Beef Up Weapons With Firepower
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: MassReady

WORCESTER, Mass. (WBZ) 11/28/07?
Fighting fire with fire is an old saying that has new meaning in Worcester as police there and in a number of other cities get new and more powerful guns.

The kind of gun that has been carried by our military for nearly 100 years will soon be on the streets of Worcester.

The reason -- call it a sign of the times.

"From our point of view we don't want to be outgunned," said firearms training officer Daniel George with the Worcester Police Department.

They train for the worst, and if it comes Worcester police want to make sure their officers are not only ready for it, but are properly equipped.

"We've been fortunate to not have an officer involved shooting for a long time, but we would rather err on the side of being proactive instead of reactive," George said.

Over the next year Worcester officers will be turning in their guns for new ones with more firepower.

They are going from a .40 caliber to a .45 caliber.

George said the difference is huge, especially if it comes to a gunfight.

"I'd rather have my officers on the street with equipment they need and never have to use it, rather than be in a situation where they need it and don't have it," George said.

"We're constantly pulling weapons off the street and a lot of them are higher caliber weapons so it's time for us to step up," said Sgt. Kerry Hazelhurst.

Hazelhurst said the changeover is in keeping with the times and the threats.

"We're stepping up to the .45 now to give our officers a better capability to stop any kind of threat," Hazelhurst said.

The Worcester's police chief said it gives him some comfort to know he's giving his troops the best tools to stay safe.

They now become the biggest department in the state to make the switch, but there are others that have done it, or are considering it.

Some of the Boston Police Department's special weapons officers carry .45s, but the department as a whole has not made this switch.

Posted by: JohnnyW12781

I believe they are going with the new .45 Smith and Wesson M&P model.

Posted by: Sniper

Fuckin A.......... I was pissed when the Army went to 9mm from 45......

Posted by: justanotherparatrooper

bigger is better....should upgrade to the new S&W 500 mag

Posted by: sempergumby

Sweet

Posted by: pahapoika

sounds like their giving up some extra capacity for the larger round.

good article on the S&W .45 here http://www.gunblast.com/SW-MP45.htm

get 3 extra rounds with the Glock 21 , but the smith has inter-changeable grips for smaller hands

Posted by: Q5-TPR

You guys suck!!!!!! I want a .45 for BOTH my jobs!!!!! (Throwing temper tantrum now, including kicking my feet) For all of you out there, before you misread this, I am kidding, you know, acting like a kid. Oh, by the way, I am back on line.....

Posted by: Sniper

How's the sandbox treatin ya Q ??????

Posted by: Q5-TPR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper

How's the sandbox treatin ya Q ??????

Oh, lovely!!!!!!

Thanks for askin!!!!!!

Posted by: csauce777

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q5-TPR

Oh, lovely!!!!!!

Thanks for askin!!!!!!

As if you werent nuts enough...

Posted by: Freddy Tiffany

I really don't see a huge difference between .40 and .45. The way this article is written you would think it could go through an engine block. I wish he looked into the Glock 21SF "slim frame" if we needed to have a .45. I have a hard time trusting a smith auto. Never had any problems with the G22.

Posted by: frank

Quote:

Originally Posted by MassReady

WORCESTER, Mass. (WBZ) 11/28/07?
The kind of gun that has been carried by our military for nearly 100 years will soon be on the streets of Worcester.

WBZ makes it sound like they're going to be carrying 1911s...

Gotta love the media.

Posted by: Deuce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy Tiffany

I really don't see a huge difference between .40 and .45. The way this article is written you would think it could go through an engine block. I wish he looked into the Glock 21SF "slim frame" if we needed to have a .45. I have a hard time trusting a smith auto. Never had any problems with the G22.

Stop being stupid....

Posted by: Killjoy

What un-gun savvy press fails to understand is that its the pilot, not the machine.

The press always looks for the easy fix : "A new law will stop people from doing XYZ", "Banning XYZ will stop violence", etc. Its like they expect buying a new pistol will suddenly make the Worcester Police twice as effective. I would argue the statement that Worcester Police are "outgunned" and that switching from .40 to .45 will solve this alleged problem. Is there any recent cases of the Worcester Police, or any police in Mass, failing to bring a suspect down with a .40 round? There are stories of soldiers being hit with .50 BMG rounds and living, and guys being shot with .22 and dying instantly. Bullets aren't magic, and ballistics is as much as an art as a science.

Pistols, are by their very nature, a weapon of convenience, not a weapon of choice. Anyone who would choose to bring a pistol to a gunfight over a rifle or shotgun has watched too many Chow-Yun Fat movies. Pistols cartridges have to balance between being relatively lightweight, controllable and easy to shoot. This does not allow for exceptional wound ballistics. A rifle round is far more devastating, but its powerful nature precludes its use in a practical pistol. If the Worcester Police really wanted to increase their "firepower" they would field patrol rifles in every cruiser.

Personally, I think the .45 ACP is a superior round. I carry Colt Officer's in .45 as one of my off-duty guns, and I wouldn't mind if our department switched to them. But I certainly don't feel naked before the enemy with a .40 caliber Sig either. And I also wonder if some officers, especially the one's not inclined to practice on their own time, will actually find their shot placement and scores declining, because of the .45's somewhat greater recoil. While this could be remedied with increased training, no department is going to buy a new pistol and increase the amount of time their officers spend at a range. I know I would rather work with an officer who can ace the X-ring with a 9mm then be all over the board with a .45.

Still, good for Worcester PD.

Posted by: OutOfManyOne

The broads had enough of a hard time with the .40, never mind the .45, watch your backs on calls.

Posted by: Q5-TPR

Quote:

Originally Posted by csauce777

As if you werent nuts enough...

LOL, thanks Chris! Hows things in the bad lands? New blood next door to you taking up my slack I hear. Send me a PM and I'll give you my email.

Posted by: csauce777

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q5-TPR

LOL, thanks Chris! Hows things in the bad lands? New blood next door to you taking up my slack I hear. Send me a PM and I'll give you my email.

Not much new down here. Yeah the new booty are taking care of business over there, but noone could replace you

. Are you still on leave, or are you back in the shit?

Posted by: PaulKersey

I agree with KJ.

I could see going from 9mm. to 45. I don't see enough of a difference to have spent the money upgrading from 40 to 45. You'll get a bigger hole, but less speed, with less rounds.

I would rather have had the money spent on bringing the guys to the range more often, working on shot placement, and putting M4's on the street.

As long as the Worcester guys are happy.
Deuce, are you happy?

Posted by: justanotherparatrooper

KJ hit it right on the money...

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank

WBZ makes it sound like they're going to be carrying 1911s...

Gotta love the media.

The best FUCKIN weapon ever made! But you have to carry it in a thigh-rig, have an M4 as your primary with combat load of 13 mags with armor-piercing rounds, wear black fatigues, Ranger body armor and goggles. THEN I would feel safe in Worcester...seeing how one of the last shootings I went to the perps were using a Mercedes with ballistic glass and doors.

Posted by: Q5-TPR

Quote:

Originally Posted by csauce777

Not much new down here. Yeah the new booty are taking care of business over there, but noone could replace you

. Are you still on leave, or are you back in the shit?

Yeah, I'm back here............

Posted by: justanotherparatrooper

Q5....be safe brother

Posted by: Sniper

KJ..... Always well spoken and VERY knowledgable..........

Sine, I agree on the 1911. When the Army switched over to the Berettas I was hellbent.

Posted by: mpd61

Killjoy is da dude with the right amplitude...

According to the NIJ stats, the .45 ACP-185 gr JHP and the .357 MAG-125 gr JHP are the most reliable 1 shot man stoppers in documented L.E. involved shoots. (1911 platforms and Wheelguns 4-evah)

I keep laughing at "innovative" crap like .357 Sig (revolver ballistics in a semi)
and the new .45 GAP cuz we needed so badly to duplicate the .45 ACP right?
Bottom line is that nobody who practices TACTICAL pistol/revolver regulary is at a disadvantage with any caliber. The fact that Worcester PD just went from .40 S&W to .45 ACP doesn't amount to a fart in the wind.

P.S.
My old K-frame .357 and speedloaders are all I need off-duty thanks.

Posted by: BB-59

I am sure I am preaching to the quire here but I hope they included the training component when they acquired the money for the new firearms.

How many times have departments skimped on actual training and instead invested in equipment to make up for saving $$$ on the training end.

The one shot stop relies more on shot placement and penetration than any one caliber. The shot placement part requires training not just qualification.
Also add mindset as a big factor.

Posted by: Loyal

while on this topic, how many police shootings of offenders have occurred in Massachusetts in the past 10 years ? Where ? How many fatalities ? How many officers injured by weapons ? When was last time your agency had an officer involved shooting incident ? Some agency must keep track of different statistics before grants are issued. Any web site with facts like this ?

Posted by: Deuce

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulKersey

Deuce, are you happy?

I'm never happy... Keeps me warm and fuzzy..

Posted by: Q5-TPR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loyal

while on this topic, how many police shootings of offenders have occurred in Massachusetts in the past 10 years ? Where ? How many fatalities ? How many officers injured by weapons ? When was last time your agency had an officer involved shooting incident ? Some agency must keep track of different statistics before grants are issued. Any web site with facts like this ?

My agency has atleast 3 that i can think of off the top of my head in the last two years, two of which happened in my patrol area (I was off duty at the time of the incident). Of those 2, both suspects were wounded with "center mass shots" and survived. In one of the incidents, a local officer was wounded by a .357 magnum while our officer retuned fire and struck the suspect. The third was "out west" and i believe it was a fatal head shot for the for the suspect). Just becuase you don't hear about shootings in our state dosen't mean they don't happen.

As far as my current patrol area, well, we have lots of shootings out here, lol.

Posted by: Loyal

Thanks Q5, I know that shootings happen and that we in eastern Mass. would be unlikely to hear of one in the Berkshires.. this thread just got me wondering how many there have been and where - I imagine some agency (or criminal rights group) keeps track of these incidents and has the info available.

Posted by: Delta784

If Worcester were going to get new weapons anyway, it makes perfect sense to go with a superior caliber. As Jeff Cooper said, the .40 S&W round was a solution to a non-existent problem.

We've had two shootings since we switched to the .40's and both were fatal for the suspect. I don't believe we had any with the 9mm, but had many with the .38 Special with very mixed results.

Remember what happened to Mark Charbonnier; he shot David Clark in the head with a 9mm, Clark lived, and Charbonnier died from a .32 round in the abdomen. Sometimes it's about shot placement and sometimes shit luck.

Posted by: Barbrady

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy

There are stories of soldiers being hit with .50 BMG rounds and living, and guys being shot with .22 and dying instantly. Bullets aren't magic, and ballistics is as much as an art as a science.

True..Delta mentioned Charbo and I am reminded of Trooper Coates from SC. He was hit killed by a .22LR from a Derringer. Trooper Coates returned fire and hitting the scrotebag several times with .357 Magnum. Scrotebag survived.

Posted by: pablo

what weapon did they go to? THe Glock or S&W .45?

Posted by: JohnnyW12781

Quote:

Originally Posted by pablo

what weapon did they go to? THe Glock or S&W .45?

Smith and Wesson M&P .45

Posted by: Deuce

Well, not yet anyway. Seems the brain trust on the third floor fucked things up as usual...

Posted by: rg1283

I don't understand how a lot of Metrowest towns have M-16s in the cruisers. Worcester doesn't (besides maybe SWAT). Please Correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted by: SGT_GRUNT_USMC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q5-TPR

Fortunately,you'll all in Mass. don't have alot of Officer involved Shootings compared to some other parts of the country ,but you never know.You have to be ready at all times and continue training.Here in my department (LVMPD)we had 37 officer involved shootings in 2006 and 15 in 2007.I was in a fatal officer involved shooting 2 weeks after graduating field training,so you never know.

Posted by: Deuce

Quote:

Originally Posted by rg1283

I don't understand how a lot of Metrowest towns have M-16s in the cruisers. Worcester doesn't (besides maybe SWAT). Please Correct me if I'm wrong.

correct..

Posted by: Q5-TPR

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGT_GRUNT_USMC

Fortunately,you'll all in Mass.

What exactly is the definition of a you'll (pronounced yaalllll). Just messin with you. Semper Fi!, Leather Neck!

Posted by: SGT_GRUNT_USMC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q5-TPR

What exactly is the definition of a you'll (pronounced yaalllll). Just messin with you. Semper Fi!, Leather Neck!

I've spent so many years living in the South in the Marines and now in the west for the past 4 years,my Mass. accent is almost gone.Semper Fi and be safe over there!

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