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S.P.A.M. and Mutual Aid

(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: wpd2209

Check this out

S.P.A.M.

Now that the big dig details are drying up they come up with this.
Coincidence or not? U decide.


Posted by: Wolfman

When I think "Mutual Aid", I think of a department going to help a department next door with a pursuit or other incident which requires a quick response with no opportunity to conduct staging. What SPAM has concerns about is the practice of officers being called out from 3-4-5-6 towns away, flocking to some staging area in their Galls-equipped Family Trucksters, playing commando and mugging for the cameras for a few hours. Hut, hut, hut. To accomplish what? A service which is already provided at no cost and at no liability to all communities in the Commonwealth.

I don't see what this has to do with details so much as intrusion on jurisdictions, potential liability, duplication of services, misuse of grant monies, and putting the arm on small departments to join these groups or face not being funded. The letter seems pretty concise to me and it doesn't say "details" anywhere in it. Maybe you're reading something between the lines I'm not, or perhaps it's just some $hitstirring and wishful thinking on your part. Hmmm.

I'm sure most Troopers could really give a rat's ass about working Big Dig details. Given that you're a relative n00b on the board, take a little time to search for one of the numerous existing threads and discussion on this matter and submit your theories there.

Maybe it is about money though...the LEC's get OT for callouts, correct? I hope whatever they get paid is worth the knife they're sticking in their brother's backs - both Local AND State.


Posted by: j809

Yes, this is the letter SPAM sent out to all town managers and selectmen in MA. Wait for the response from Mass Chiefs of Police after they met with the Colonel and Secretary of Public Safety.


Posted by: MSP75

wpd2209,
You may think you are starting a nice sh*% storm, but it already blew through this area. For your visual enjoyment, the anti-SPAM comments are here:
http://www.masscops.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6738


Posted by: truthbetold

sticking knives in peoples backs vor. The state police have been for years getting raises all along and us city guys have to deal with the crap of actually negotiating for one. You all have cruisers that are take home. We have crap ones with high miles and some barely run. You have all the funding in the world and we have to scrape. For years the state police have been getting a lot and towns and cities suffer. Where were you then as a vocal throw up artist. We have lobbied for raises and there the state is getting a silent 5% and 5% for two years. Enough is enough with your verbal garbage. You speak one way and yet turn your face another. As far as someone being a nooby so what he has all the right in the world to say what he feels. State police are the elite and yes i am envious of the money they make. They are phenomenal at what they do and their expertise is unparalleled. Yet you are here preaching about something and dumping on others in other rooms for the same thing you lobby. I don't want to be a state trooper because my career is already on its way down. We are supposed to be on the same team as officers. Yet i feel like you think you are better than all of us plain officers. I don't think so.


Posted by: wisdom

truth,

Stand by for the lectures, backstabbing and post deletions but your exactly right. SPAM got a little carried away by their own introspective importance and now unfortunately the fallout will start. It's intresting they consider themselves some type of owner of law enforcement service in the state and that only they can decide whats best for everyone else. They deliberately attacked other PD's with the letter, sending it to the cities and towns across the state. Watch what happens now.


Posted by: wpd2209

MSP75,
Sorry you think I'm trying to start a sh*% storm. A friend just told me about the letter yesterday, and I just saw it today.

VOR,
As I'm interpreting their statement, they don't want local officers out
of their given city or town, to me that reads no "out of town" details, and for a lot of people, that's their bread and butter.
I've worked in a community near a SP Barracks for over 16 years and I've never known them to be concerned over a "reduction in public safety coverage" for the citizens of my community. The only thing I see with this statement is that their still concerned with regional groups taking over functions which they consider theirs. If cities and towns want to combine their forces and make a regional dive team, swat team, etc, SP should welcome the extended coverage and enhanced training the local officers are supplying, not fighting over who's jurisdiction it is. If I remember correctly, one function of the State Police is to assist local communities with their policing needs, not take over the policing.


Posted by: Piper

well said WPD2209.
You know, when you look at the MSP Marine Unit you don't hear the Environmental cops crying about duplication of service. The EPO's have even more boats but seem to understand that the pie is big enough for everyone to get a slice.


Posted by: MSP75

No problem WPD2209. Tense subjects. Hopefully these are just jabs by brothers, who in the end will stick together.
Truthbetold,
As far as duplication of services. That would not be a big deal if a certain Secretary wasn't playing around with the money. You are worried about safety of officers and response times. How does not providing money to SP tac ops for training and equipment keep officers safe. LEC tac ops spends the money for training and they may not exist several years down the road. A dangerous game by Mr Career & Agency Hopper is played as each month w/o training goes by for STOP and others. This regionalization plan is his attempt to look good for some other job. These LECs will be the last thing on his mind when he moves on.


Posted by: truthbetold

Listen maybe I should have worded it differently. I think everyone should have funding. No one should need it any more than anyone else. These LEC's if they are going away in years then let them. Great point about the environmental Police. They are not going around flailing their arms. This is ridiculous about I have more powers and responsibilities. The local towns feel they need to form LEC's then let them learn a lesson if that is the case. I am all for the people having the powers that they are entitled to. Whether it be the locals, state, feds, or sheriffs departments. If they are entitled to that power then so be it. Why limit one so the other can be elite. Why not work together. I don't care about a few peoples egoes getting in the way. It is bigger than you.


Posted by: wpd2209

Just a quick question.

The letter from SPAM makes it sound like LEC's are a new thing. I believe NEMLEC was formed in the early 70's, not sure when METLEC was formed but I do know it was in existence before homeland security grants came about. So why does everybody think they're going to disappear in a few years?


Posted by: chief801

All of this us versus them B.S. is getting old. It is only natural for anyone to try to protect their own interest, but I think that what is being lost here is the big picture. Now don't mistake my comments for being "pro-Flynn", as there are issue that have come up in the past where I disagree with him completely.

Flynn's attempt to push people towards consolidation of services does not, in my opinion, come from a desire to take funding away from the State Police. It comes from his real-life experience in Arlington County, Virginia during the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11. He saw, first-hand, the need for cooperation and cross-training of law enforcement agencies, fire services, and EMS. To provide services during an incident of that magnitude, these jurisdictional pissing contests have to be cast aside. I have the utmost respect for the MSP, but it is naive for anyone to think that they could single handedly respond to a large scale public safey crisis, regardless of how much training money they received.

NYPD out-classes the MSP as far as manpower and resources, but I recall that in the days immediately after 9/11, they were accepting help from any available source. The plans being put in place now aren't to keep the MSP Stop Team from responding to local jurisdictions. They are being done to ensure that in the event of a major incident, there are resources available, in addition to the State Police, to properly handle anything. There is a need for additional tactical teams to train and prepare. Part of that training and preparation is handling small scale incidents in preparation for "the big one". In the event of a multiple target attack, the STOP Team will be thankful that these LEC tactical teams exist.

I completely sympathize with SPAM, I understand that their responsibility is to protect the interests of its members, however, this issue is bigger than they are. The smart thing to do would be to embrace the changes, train with the LEC's so there is commonality in response, protocols, and terminology. That way, in the unfortunate event that half of their team gets wiped out, they can pick up equally capable operators and continue with the mission. In addition, if SPAM were to take this approach, they would get a piece of that coveted grant money that they feel they are being screwed out of.

Lastly, I think its completely unfair to categorize LEC tactical guys as little boys in BDU's getting their rocks off by playing SWAT. Granted, they may not have the same training time under their belts as their STOP Team counterparts, but many of them have received excellent training. Let's be honest, anyone who gets involved in tac-ops gets a charge out of it. If not, they wouldn't be right for the job. Tac-ops for any agency or jurisdiction is an elitist position (SEALS, Special Forces, LAPD, whoever) anyone who does not consider themselves or their team as the best isn't worth their salt.

Oh, look, I rambled....but what to I know?


Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthbetold";p=&quot View Post
sticking knives in peoples backs vor. The state police have been for years getting raises all along and us city guys have to deal with the crap of actually negotiating for one.
You think that the SP never had to negotiate for a raise? Sadly mistaken my friend. SP has gone years without contracts in the past and their current contract has already been expired for a year. The only offer so far was 0,0,0 and give up seniority. Sound like a good deal to you?
Quote:
You all have cruisers that are take home. We have crap ones with high miles and some barely run. You have all the funding in the world and we have to scrape.
I know Troopers whose first cruiser was 7 years old with 150,000 miles on it. Troopers get take home cruisers because they may not be working the same place every day. A Trooper may get a call 1/2 hour before his shift starts telling him that he will be working 30 miles away. Troopers are required to respond and assist whenever in a department vehicle, including commutes, court appearances, etc. They are required to make sure the vehicle is maintained and properly housed at their residences for no additional compensation. They are not permitted to use the vehicle for any personal reasons whatsoever. Some deal, eh? Maybe that's why your cruisers are shitboxes though, there's no accountability.
Quote:
For years the state police have been getting a lot and towns and cities suffer. Where were you then as a vocal throw up artist. We have lobbied for raises and there the state is getting a silent 5% and 5% for two years.
The state has gotten NOTHING in the last year, and read the previous paragraph for the latest offer. Your facts are in error. Laptops have been deployed in SP cruisers for only the last year, and at least half the fleet does not have one. There are areas where there is no raido coverage and barracks still using the same VHF lowband as was used in the 1970's. So much for getting a lot. Maybe your Union is not looking out for your best interests if you are unable to secure a raise. Why is that the SP's fault?
Quote:
Enough is enough with your verbal garbage. You speak one way and yet turn your face another. As far as someone being a nooby so what he has all the right in the world to say what he feels. State police are the elite and yes i am envious of the money they make. They are phenomenal at what they do and their expertise is unparalleled. Yet you are here preaching about something and dumping on others in other rooms for the same thing you lobby. I don't want to be a state trooper because my career is already on its way down. We are supposed to be on the same team as officers. Yet i feel like you think you are better than all of us plain officers. I don't think so.
You say that you are on the same team - but even on a team the players have their own specific roles, which have different responsibilities, and different functions. How would the '80 Olymipics turned out if Craig decided he wanted to take shots on the Soviets and let Eruzione cover the goal? Nowhere have I said that one department is better than another, only the requirements and responsibilities of the jobs are different and specialized. The "n00b" comment was directed at someone with less than a month on the board who apparently feels that it's unnecessary to add to an existing topic and instead start another redundant discussion...which is generally viewed as poor BBS etiquette (kind of like those that type IN ALL CAPS). I have also said nothing about who makes more than whom...I don't know how much you make and quite frankly, I don't care as long as YOU do YOUR job and I do MINE. Why not stick with FACT and let the FICTION go by the wayside?

FACT: Mutual Aid is different than Regionalization
FACT: Regionalization saps funding
FACT: Regionalization duplicates existing services
FACT: Regionalization inhibits local departments from specializing internally - Why should East Mytown PD get their own K9 or Recon guy when they're paying the LEC for one? Another position that will never be created or filled.
FACT: The SP has provided these services for years with trained personnel, responding in marked cruisers (take home cruisers! Woohoo!) with all gear, who train together regularly, who leave control of the situation in the local department's hands, who do not seek notoriety or glory in the press, who come in, do the job, and quietly leave, assuming all risk and responsibility should things go sour. Compare this to a LEC, who have a press release typed before the deployment is done, who respond in civilian vehicles, whose local taxpayers wind up footing the bill for membership, training, and overtime while their own community is deprived of the services they pay their taxes for.

You say live and let live - well, that's all that's being asked here. Do the job you were hired on to do, let the SP do the job they were hired on to do. Don't come down on people who are trying to protect what's theirs.

PS: The LEC's started out as a radio group.


Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthbetold";p=&quot View Post
sticking knives in peoples backs vor. The state police have been for years getting raises all along and us city guys have to deal with the crap of actually negotiating for one.
What?? SPAM doesn't have to negotiate for raises? Of course they do! Just because your Union can't get a raise, don't think that SPAM doesn't have to fight tooth and nail for everything.


Quote:
You all have cruisers that are take home. We have crap ones with high miles and some barely run. You have all the funding in the world and we have to scrape.
What a LIE. The MSP up until a few years ago ran cruisers with 150,000+ miles. My local PD trades theirs in at around 60K.

Most of their radios are 1970s era GE crapboxes. They are JUST NOW getting laptops, after most local PD's are in their 3rd or 4th generation of laptops.

Their OT has been level funded for about 5 years, which means no one can get a day off.


Quote:
For years the state police have been getting a lot and towns and cities suffer.
A Massive LIE. The grass is always greener is all that is.

Quote:
Where were you then as a vocal throw up artist. We have lobbied for raises and there the state is getting a silent 5% and 5% for two years. Enough is enough with your verbal garbage. You speak one way and yet turn your face another. As far as someone being a nooby so what he has all the right in the world to say what he feels. State police are the elite and yes i am envious of the money they make. They are phenomenal at what they do and their expertise is unparalleled. Yet you are here preaching about something and dumping on others in other rooms for the same thing you lobby. I don't want to be a state trooper because my career is already on its way down. We are supposed to be on the same team as officers. Yet i feel like you think you are better than all of us plain officers. I don't think so.
Obviously, SPAM isn't going to expend Union dollars or time to lobby for raises for local PD's. It's not their function. But I can guarantee you, if there is a Union with a good relationship with SPAM, and they asked one of the E Board guys to speak on their behalf, they absolutely would. I've seen all the BS stories here, but I can tell you for a fact, the Holyoke Chief wanted to bring in MSP instead of his guys on OT, and when the HPD Union asked SPAM to stay out, they DID.


Posted by: frank

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpd2209";p=&quot View Post
Just a quick question.

The letter from SPAM makes it sound like LEC's are a new thing. I believe NEMLEC was formed in the early 70's, not sure when METLEC was formed but I do know it was in existence before homeland security grants came about. So why does everybody think they're going to disappear in a few years?
As I understand it, since 9/11 the feds have dumped a lot of money down the pipe for state government funding and any municipal agencies that put in for it. The LECs and sheriff departments got a nice chunk of change of the money and were able to 'splurge' on equipment and training to broaden the scope of what they do...and it looks like they either stepped on some toes in the process (or everyone else is worried about their toes being stepped on).

The federal funding may dry up eventually (by either not being there or appropriated elsewhere), but I personally think the LECs will survive.

While it's nice to have a local PD be able to call on MSP when they have a problem, I would think (given on the severity of the situation, of course) they would rather call on their peers (being fellow departments or a LEC) rather than MSP and handle it more on their level than taking the situation out of their hands and giving it (or dumping it) on someone else.


Posted by: MSP75

NEMLEC indeed has been around for a while. Cooperation is a great idea among agencies. The current issue is money and resources going to things like SWAT, crime scene, and crash recon that is already performed by SP. Even this wouldn't be much of a problem if the SP units were properly funded and manpower was no problem. LECs could very well be a great enhancement to the support provided by the State Police. Unfortunately, MSP OT and training funds are lacking currently. But that does not seem to be so for LECs.
When budgets are in the red, SP will always respond in emergencies. Town administrators are not going to allow their PDs to spend local money in another town if they want to be re-elected. What if town X provides 5 POs to a SWAT. Town X has to lay all 5 off. Now that SWAT is short 5 and will have to get the other towns to provide new POs to train. But they can't because they are laying off too.
Also, if regionalization is all about cooperation for the greater good, why isn't MSP part of this? And don't say it is because of SPAM. None of the MA HS plans call for it.


Posted by: stm4710

Quote:
cross-training of law enforcement agencies, fire services, and EMS
Ahem, I have to step in say something here. Giving grant money to cross training LEO's to be FF's is wrong. Police money for police training, fire money for fire training. Cross training LEO to be FF and vice versa is a bad idea. A FF with a gun is dangerous And a LEO aside from an arson investigator without years of training wont begin to understand idea of pyrolysis and fire movement, building construction, suppression systems, search and rescue, hydraulics, truck and engine company work, Haz-Mat operations etc.

IMO, having a bunch of half trained firefighters is a bad idea. I would rather see all this grant money invested in the training of fire personnel and day to day improvements of fire and EMS services. Not only will it improve the day to day responses but it will better equip the department for " the big one" and will also be the best bang for the grant dollar buck.

Here is an idea, lets replace rigs held together by rust, upgrade to radio systems that WORK and purchase gear that finally is NFPA 1972 compliant.

Just ask your self, how many friggin command parade rigs do we need and when was the last time a command post put out a fire , put on a band aid or staffed an ALS engine when your mother is having a heart attack.




Posted by: thumper2168

WPD.. first of all we have sooo many details that we give them away to everyone. if we cant we give them out to the local city and towns first there....

2nd of all I have over 200,000 miles on my cruiser so there goes that argument ......

Tell me why the Chief of Bolton PD should get $37,000 for GPS enabled units for her town and I think it was Berlin that got a ton of chem suits when other towns like Everett and Chelsea have one for every ten officers. Where do ya think they are gonna hit... Bolton or Everett (hint LNG) Let the Chief practice her kingdom ways on somebody's else's dime....


Posted by: Jasper

The bottom line is this : the LOCAL police do 99% of 9-1-1 calls. The vast majority of municipal police departments handle everything that comes their way and only ask for assistance as needed. PERIOD !! They do not ask for any other agency to take all the risks, responsibility or control of any incident. If a municipal police force needs the prompt assistance of another police department and has faith in only full time, real police academy trained officers, be they municipal or State, that choice is their perogative. STOP, NEMLEC, METROLEC, whatever.... we stand as one. A quick response for help by qualified police officers is what is needed. It's the cowboys that pay to get on sheriff departments and then join tactical units that we should be concerned about. They are sucking up resources by false pretenses and have no experience with 9-1-1 emergency calls. Call your State Rep. and Senator and ask them to curb these wannabes - they, not other police, are the crux of the issue. State and municipal police can and do work well together on a daily basis. We are not in competition and are equally as qualified when trainining and nuts and bolts experience are compared. Police, not political hacks, should be given grants for equipment and training. Police, not political campaign sign holding deputies, do 9-1-1 in Massachusetts.


Posted by: chief801

I should have been more clear. I wasn't suggesting cross-training between disciplines. I meant we should be cross-taining agencies within their respective areas of expertise and then work with Fire and EMS so that all are familiar with each others responses and protocols. I by no means want cops to grab hoses, or firefighters to grab guns.

Ah, the beauty of miscommunication!


Posted by: SOT

It's real simple, look at the patch on your shoulder, read what it says...
if it says STATE POLICE, then that's what you are. If it says "Insert Town Name Here Police", that's what you are. If it says Sheriff Deputy, worry about the crimnals that have ALREADY been caught.

Now mutual aid should be about contiguous (touching) towns helping each other out, and unless there is some MAJOR shit storm locals should stay close to home.

Now as to "extra details" or off time detail work. You wanna be involed in that, hey everyone should have chance at that. It could be very simple, you sign up on one of your regional lists to do extra details, and they just call down the list when there is an event coming up. It's on your free time, your POV to travel to the location and if they need blue light permitted vehicles, your town gets reimbursed for the crusier time. Simple.

I talk to a bunch of towns all the time about equipment and training needs, it kills me when a town has maybe 8 officers, and needs new equipment and DESPERATELY needs training but their training budget of $5K went to "membership dues" to be part of one of these regional associations. So to that end whoever says these things don't TAKE money out of the towns and for the local PD, you are full of it.
If there is a regional police association, it shouldn't cost ANYTHING for member towns, if there is a specific training event that costs money the POWER of the regional association should be in getting a BARGIN price for the training because of the number of people attending.
If there's SO much Federal money out there these LEC's should be ENTIRELY FREE. They should apply for grant money, schedule training, and try and offer the training for free or as cheap as possible for the "member towns" using that federal money and collective bargining...but that isn't the way it works...and that's the problem.



CQB LEC:

Hi I'm the President of CQB LEC, we are a LEC with 15 member towns and would like to schedule a Taser training class.

Well sir it's $6,000 for the class and materials for 11 students, we need a minimum of 10 officers. You get one free slot per 10 officers.

Ohhh that's no problem we have 40 officers that need training.

Well sir then you qualify for our large group discount rate, it's $12,000 for 40 officers and you get 5 additional slots free. That saves you over $12,000 for training if you would have just trained 10 officers at a time.

Hey thanks how do we sign up.

Well we will need one contact person, we will bill the LEC after the training so long as you send a letter stating that you are commited to the training.
We will need the names of the students in advance so as to have their certificates ready. We suggest that you collect the money in advance or as soon after the class is completed. We will mail you the contract with all the classroom needs.

Wow great, since I'm the one running it I think I will give one of my officers the "free slot" and use the other four free slots to "cost down" the training for everyone else.


Posted by: stm4710

I see what you meant now chief. I am just very weary of cities and towns cross training between the two. Cause the next step after that is abolishing the two departments and making a "Public safety office". A Public Safety Officer is like having a cruiser with 3 tires or firetruck with one firefighter USELESS!!!!

I will stop now those as this discussion is going
This is about MSP not the creation of PSO's so lets take it to another thread.


Posted by: k9sheriff

Hey Jasper, I bet you work in one of those non-civil service towns where you started out as a free riding auxiliary(whacker)so you could carry a gun and badge and then after a while begged the chief for a spot as a reserve and then after a while worked into a full time position without having to take any exam(got in the easy way)and had your father pay off the selectman to get your job.Kind of sounds like some of those sheriff departments you keep mentioning huh!! Isn't this post on Spam and mutual aid?


Posted by: j809

Quote:
Originally Posted by k9sheriff";p=&quot View Post
Hey Jasper, I bet you work in one of those non-civil service towns where you started out as a free riding auxiliary(whacker)so you could carry a gun and badge and then after a while begged the chief for a spot as a reserve and then after a while worked into a full time position without having to take any exam(got in the easy way)and had your father pay off the selectman to get your job.Kind of sounds like some of those sheriff departments you keep mentioning huh!! Isn't this post on Spam and mutual aid?
Hey K9 Hack, if he did all that then he earned his spot unlike where you made your annual $500 donation,performed fellatio on the Sheriff and then hold up a sign for him.


Posted by: Wolfman

Welcome to the gutter. Thread closed.




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