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On / Off Limits for CCW

(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: Curious EMT

This seems to be of a bit of debate.
Where can, and where not, a Class A licensed "civilian" carry?
What exactly are the laws?
Obviously schools / courts are off-limits.
What about a bar? (Not consuming, just being present)
What about private schools (Emerson for example)

Thanks Lens and SOT in advance

Edit, I suck at english this early in the AM


Posted by: Dan H

Schools and state or federal building are off limits, I think those are the only ones. You can carry in bars, unless they have a patdown policy and don't want to have armed people inside. As far as I read the law you can't carry a "loaded weapon while under the influence of alcohol". I believe it would have to be proven that person carrying the weapon had at least a BAC of .05. I wouldn't let it stop you from having a beer while out for dinner.
I'd like to know if there are any other off limits places too, this was just what I know off the top of my head.


Posted by: Curious EMT

Beer when OUT to dinner? Never. It's just "asking for it"
At home? there's another story, but I dont drink at home, and i surely dont do dinner at home....

I'm cullinary-deficient


Posted by: LenS

Curious,

The MGLs ONLY prohibit firearms on ANY school property, this includes colleges and even if the school property were rented for a private function.

Anyplace can "prohibit weapons", do a search and ask you to leave. Refusal to leave amounts to trespass and you can be arrested, BUT the mere possession of a firearm is not a crime on any private/public property (you should check fish and game, federal parks, etc. laws for property that comes under these regs/laws as I don't know about them) regarding MGLs.

Also, if you actually read the WHOLE law referenced in the short poster at the USPO, you will find that it is intentionally VERY MISLEADING! The actual law has an exemption (to the prohibition of having guns on USPO property) "for any lawful purpose" . . . e.g. if you have a LTC and going in to do normal postal business (no intent of robbery or shooting up the place) you can carry legally at the USPO.

Courthouses and some city halls now have security and won't let anyone carry any kind of weapons, cell phones (e.g. Moakley Courthouse), pagers, PDAs, etc. but it is not really LAW (MGL anyway), but policy that they can legally enforce (by using "trespassing" as the crime for refusal to comply).

LEOs are usually exempt from the above legal restrictions, but may still have to give up weapons in courthouses, etc. if their policies require it.

Also, as stated, MGL makes it illegal to carry if under the influence of alcohol, medication, drugs, etc. If found out, you'd likely lose the LTC permanently as a "not suitable person" anyway. I would suspect this to also be true if you possessed a LTC (but were NOT carrying) and were tagged for being under the influence (even if not driving).


Posted by: SOT

Rules of the thumbs: (so to speak)

Any schools, school grounds or functions NO WAY. The caveat being that if you have WRITTEN permission prior to bringing a firearm onto the property, you are OK.
If the place has a metal detector, NO WAY (courthouse, federal buildings, metal institutions, prisons, airports)
Military facilities prolly not a great idea but it REALLY depends.
Bars, don't drink.
Any other places that expressly prohibit the carry of firearms. It must be posted and some say it must conform to the 30.06 wording but I'm not entirely sure about that.
A post office is a good example...big NO GUNS sign, but read the fine print..No guns if you intend on breaking the law with it...which would mean that it's OK if you are carrying for lawful purposes.

A very good explanation can be found here about the post office thing:
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html

Other places will have a "ghostbusters" no gun sign, is that legit? hard to really say but I can certainly understand what they are trying to convey so....then the flip side is, you are carrying fully concealed, so how will they know, it doesn't conform to the 30.06...it's more of a risk taking the gun out and storing it prior to entering the location...lots of pros and cons...so it's really up to you. As you carry you will find that your life ends up segmented into two "worlds" tasks that allow for carry and those that don't...interestingly if you carry a lot, you will naturally segregate the two.
Basically in the moring you will automatically run down your day and think, can I carry today, or nope no carry.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious EMT";p=&quot View Post
This seems to be of a bit of debate.
Where can, and where not, a Class A licensed "civilian" carry?
What exactly are the laws?
Obviously schools / courts are off-limits.
What about a bar? (Not consuming, just being present)
What about private schools (Emerson for example)

Thanks Lens and SOT in advance

Edit, I suck at english this early in the AM



Posted by: LenS

SOT,

Unlike places like AZ, MGL has no provision of law regarding signs banning guns. Thus, they can post all the signs they want and they are meaningless UNTIL such time you are asked to leave. If you refuse, you are trespassing and can be arrested for trespass. Nothing to do with guns whatsoever.

Good rule of thumb in MA, ALWAYS keep it concealed and don't carry in the few places that the law disallows (schools/colleges, secure areas of airports, etc.).


Posted by: SOT

Then you and I disagree on this isse entirely.
Again, it's an issue of being smart to the world. If a place posts that they do not want people carrying CCW via a sign, you as a reasonable person understand that they do not want guns there -simple. Now it's an issue of how will they know you are carrying and actually have the opportunity to ask if it's a properly CONCEALED firearm? They won't...but then why did they put the sign there...because they don't want firearms on their property...but really they have no way of asking you because it's a concealed firearm and no one will know you are carrying. It's BS catch 22 that just don't fly.

So the best answer is really, if you know a place doesn't want you to carry concealed firearms, don't carry there and more to the point DO NOT spend you money there.

Let them know that you disagree with the position on lawfully possessed and carried firearms, but don't carry there, don't carry your money in there and leave it until such time as they change their position on the RTKBA.

Another small caveat to all of this, since several state do recognize MA permits for CCW via a one sided reciprocity. What the laws are in that state while carrying under you MA Class A is equally important. MA laws about carry do not really extend past the border but your rights sometimes do. To that end, know the signs, know what they mean, and know the limits of what a sign can do.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LenS";p=&quot View Post
SOT,

Unlike places like AZ, MGL has no provision of law regarding signs banning guns. Thus, they can post all the signs they want and they are meaningless UNTIL such time you are asked to leave. If you refuse, you are trespassing and can be arrested for trespass. Nothing to do with guns whatsoever.

Good rule of thumb in MA, ALWAYS keep it concealed and don't carry in the few places that the law disallows (schools/colleges, secure areas of airports, etc.).



Posted by: LenS

SOT,

We do NOT disagree at all!

I was just addressing the legal issue of signage.

I agree that if they post signs, then they also don't want my money and I'll be more than happy to oblige them (and tell them so and why).

For a very short time there were signs posted on the door of a local Wal-Mart. I posted a few messages on some gun-owner boards and after numerous Emails and phone calls (hopefully all were polite, but to the point) to "Wally-World Central", they announced that this was NOT corporate policy and the offending store management would be ordered to remove the signs (which they did). The toughest job I had was to calm down a local PO that was so steamed at the sign that he wanted to walk in there "exposed carry" (plainclothes detective in a different town) and "let them do something about it"!


Posted by: anesthes

Quote:
Originally Posted by LenS";p=&quot View Post
SOT,

We do NOT disagree at all!

I was just addressing the legal issue of signage.

I agree that if they post signs, then they also don't want my money and I'll be more than happy to oblige them (and tell them so and why).

For a very short time there were signs posted on the door of a local Wal-Mart. I posted a few messages on some gun-owner boards and after numerous Emails and phone calls (hopefully all were polite, but to the point) to "Wally-World Central", they announced that this was NOT corporate policy and the offending store management would be ordered to remove the signs (which they did). The toughest job I had was to calm down a local PO that was so steamed at the sign that he wanted to walk in there "exposed carry" (plainclothes detective in a different town) and "let them do something about it"!

Wanna add something.

Your out with friends. You have a drink at the bar. You leave bar, some shithead pulls a knife and runs at you. His intent is to stab you.. You draw and fire one round, killing him. You might not even know this guy, maybe hes nuts, maybe he didnt like the way you looked at his girlfriend.

Your on the stand, and your asked "Did you have any alcoholic drinks at the bar? "

Don't drink and carry. Regardless of what the MGL says, the civil issues would just be. too horrible to imagine.

-- Joe


Posted by: SOT

Are you a police officer, lawyer, or state certified instructor for MA?


Posted by: anesthes

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOT_II";p=&quot View Post
Are you a police officer, lawyer, or state certified instructor for MA?
Is my avatar not functioning ?


Posted by: SOT

And an avatar means what? You don't list what you are in your profile, there are other people here that have the same avatar and are not police officers.
And truthfully it scares me a little that if you are a police officer, you would be so wrong about simple firearms transportation law and give that as "advice".


Posted by: anesthes

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOT_II";p=&quot View Post
And an avatar means what? You don't list what you are in your profile, there are other people here that have the same avatar and are not police officers.
And truthfully it scares me a little that if you are a police officer, you would be so wrong about simple firearms transportation law and give that as "advice".
It's not my fault that you feel a locked container is not a locked container.
I even hinted at a reference in ch90 that describes, in certain situations, that a locked glove compartment is NOT considered part of the passenger area in some vehicles. But you overlooked that, because you couldn't consider for 5 seconds that you may infact, be wrong. It must have killed you. Does it still hurt?

And my advice was to buy a safe. But you ignored that because you have tunnel vision. Or maybe you just wanted to have the last word?

I also think your completely wrong on your rant about the "everyone knows the reason on a LTC is a restriction". But I don't have to argue that with you, the court has already proved you wrong. I showed that post to a real MASS firearms instructor the other day. He had a good laugh at your professional opinion on the matter.

So what exactly are you anyway? A farmer? A firearms instructor? A firearms manufacturer? All of the above? None of the above?

Whats your MASS instructor #, and NRA instructor # ?

I didn't want to start a war, but you obviously can't handle being told you are wrong, or that someone disagrees with you. So go beat up your pillow, pout a bit, and write some nasty response to me. I regret pointing out a simple ch90 law for you the other day, that you couldn't find yourself, now that I realize you know everything.


Are you happy now?


Posted by: Curious EMT

anesthes, its ok, take a breather. Can you PM me the cite for the MGL you mentioned regarding the exclusion of G.C. in an MV for being in the passanger compartment?
Ide really appreciate it.

I can understnad everyone's Poing of view regarding carrying / storage in an MV when necessary. I've already ordered a hard-sided safe that I will mount to the underside of the rear-deck in my car. Out of the way, secure, no questions asked.
The only "problem" i had with that is the possibility of visually arming / disarming myself whe necessary, as opposed to an in-car storage that would offer more privacy for all the.... "people".....

thanks everyone!


Posted by: copchika911

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H";p=&quot View Post
Schools and state or federal building are off limits, I think those are the only ones. You can carry in bars, unless they have a patdown policy and don't want to have armed people inside. As far as I read the law you can't carry a "loaded weapon while under the influence of alcohol". I believe it would have to be proven that person carrying the weapon had at least a BAC of .05. I wouldn't let it stop you from having a beer while out for dinner.
I'd like to know if there are any other off limits places too, this was just what I know off the top of my head.
If you seriously think this way...You shouldn't own a firearm. Bars and guns...Thats a negative!


Posted by: anesthes

Quote:
Originally Posted by copchika911";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan H";p=&quot View Post
Schools and state or federal building are off limits, I think those are the only ones. You can carry in bars, unless they have a patdown policy and don't want to have armed people inside. As far as I read the law you can't carry a "loaded weapon while under the influence of alcohol". I believe it would have to be proven that person carrying the weapon had at least a BAC of .05. I wouldn't let it stop you from having a beer while out for dinner.
I'd like to know if there are any other off limits places too, this was just what I know off the top of my head.
If you seriously think this way...You shouldn't own a firearm. Bars and guns...Thats a negative!
That was pretty much my point. Alcohol + guns don't ever mix, regardless of the amounts of either.


Posted by: Mach

[quote="anesthes";p="55342"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenS";p=&quot View Post
Your out with friends. You have a drink at the bar. You leave bar, some shithead pulls a knife and runs at you. His intent is to stab you.. You draw and fire one round, killing him. You might not even know this guy, maybe hes nuts, maybe he didnt like the way you looked at his girlfriend.

Your on the stand, and your asked "Did you have any alcoholic drinks at the bar? "

-- Joe
Here is the alternative:

Your out with friends. You have a drink at the bar. You leave bar, some shithead pulls a knife and runs at you. His intent is to stab you.. So he does and kills you. You might not even know this guy, maybe he's nuts, maybe he didnt like the way you looked at his girlfriend. But because you planned on having a drink at the bar you left your weapon at home. Now your dead.


The important point is are you able to react responsibly, take into account all factors and react with measured force after 1 beer? Maybe, but the prosecuting attorney will try to prove otherwise. So the choices are, put your life at risk by going to a bar unarmed, put liberty and job at risk by going to a bar armed or don't go to a bar. I'm not saying alcohol and firearms mix, I'm just saying for a LEO going to a bar unarmed is probably not a smart choice at all. LEOs are at risk because of the BGs out to get revenge or the terrorists out to make a point, or the scope and jurisdiction of the job requirements and responsibilities everywhere you go. If you are a LEO and think you can blend with the crowd, you may want to take another look at that assumption.

Just my opinion


Posted by: anesthes

[quote="Mach";p="55398"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenS";p=&quot View Post
SOT,


Your out with friends. You have a drink at the bar. You leave bar, some shithead pulls a knife and runs at you. His intent is to stab you.. You draw and fire one round, killing him. You might not even know this guy, maybe hes nuts, maybe he didnt like the way you looked at his girlfriend.

Your on the stand, and your asked "Did you have any alcoholic drinks at the bar? "

-- Joe
I think that is better than the alternative:

Your out with friends. You have a drink at the bar. You leave bar, some shithead pulls a knife and runs at you. His intent is to stab you.. So he does and kills you. You might not even know this guy, maybe he's nuts, maybe he didnt like the way you looked at his girlfriend. But because you planned on having a drink at the bar you left your weapon at home. Now your dead.
Is there a good answer? No! I'm saying that once you use your firearm, everyone is going to question it. The introduction of alcohol might turn the tables in the view of others.

So whats the answer? Bring a gun and hope for the best? Bring OC? stay home? Stand next to the bouncer?

I guess its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


-- Joe


Posted by: Mach

Quote:
So whats the answer? Bring a gun and hope for the best? Bring OC? stay home? Stand next to the bouncer?

I guess its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


-- Joe

Or just stop going to bars.......NAhhhhhh.


Posted by: TripleSeven

As a civilian with an unrestricted Class A LTC, I rarely take my pistol out with me except when I work in Boston which requires me to be armed, the woods with my dog, or to the range. My other job I have OC and always keep a canister in my inside jacket pocket. Whenever I go out to dinner or anywhere where I may want to have a drink, I leave the gun home. Once I am a sworn officer, than I would most likley carry at all times. I figured that having this unrestricted license at my age looks good when I apply to police jobs.. the last thing I need is for it to be revoked. I do have a good reason to carry, since at my job at Quincy Hospital we hold Section 12's and 35's against their will, often times forcefully... So i'm sure I have a few enemies out there.


Posted by: SOT

So are you a cop or not?
What the problem is is that you are not in a position of responsibility for actually giving out the information but you continue to do so without regard for the reality.

Reason for issuance is a restriction UNTIL you walk the line and go to court and prove it isn't. We all know that a few district courts have said that a reason isn't a restriction, but that doesn't carry for the whole state and that sure doesn't mean that you will keep your license or be renewed after "winning the battle" proving that your reason for issuance isn't a restriction.
It doesn't matter to me if you think I'm right or wrong at all, so far all you are is a name on a screen that likes to play cop, are you a cop or are you a IT guy? or do you just play policeman on weekends so you can have a badge to show your buddies?

The answer is if you are not putting you signature on the line as far as being the instructor, you opinions as a "police officer" are worthless.

The key in MA is to err on the side of caution, the fact that Ron Glidden says, the "glove box is not a locked container" is good enough for me and that Chiefs can treat the reason for issuance as a restriction. Maybe your "friend" instructor needs to brush up, maybe you need to learn some things, and maybe just maybe, you shouldn't be giving advice about things you are not willing to be responsible for.



Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOT_II";p=&quot View Post
And an avatar means what? You don't list what you are in your profile, there are other people here that have the same avatar and are not police officers.
And truthfully it scares me a little that if you are a police officer, you would be so wrong about simple firearms transportation law and give that as "advice".
It's not my fault that you feel a locked container is not a locked container.
I even hinted at a reference in ch90 that describes, in certain situations, that a locked glove compartment is NOT considered part of the passenger area in some vehicles. But you overlooked that, because you couldn't consider for 5 seconds that you may infact, be wrong. It must have killed you. Does it still hurt?

And my advice was to buy a safe. But you ignored that because you have tunnel vision. Or maybe you just wanted to have the last word?

I also think your completely wrong on your rant about the "everyone knows the reason on a LTC is a restriction". But I don't have to argue that with you, the court has already proved you wrong. I showed that post to a real MASS firearms instructor the other day. He had a good laugh at your professional opinion on the matter.

So what exactly are you anyway? A farmer? A firearms instructor? A firearms manufacturer? All of the above? None of the above?

Whats your MASS instructor #, and NRA instructor # ?

I didn't want to start a war, but you obviously can't handle being told you are wrong, or that someone disagrees with you. So go beat up your pillow, pout a bit, and write some nasty response to me. I regret pointing out a simple ch90 law for you the other day, that you couldn't find yourself, now that I realize you know everything.


Are you happy now?



Posted by: Mach

I don't think anybody with have a brain is going to take advice on what's legal or not legal from some anonomous message board. Doesn't matter if someone says he is a cop or not. "But judge, this guy ( I think) on the masscops.com message board said it was ok, so why am I going to jail"

These are discussions about topics, that's it. All advice should be taken with a huge truck load of salt.

The book I have on mass gun law says the glove box is not considered an appropriate locked container. Thats good enough for me. This is the book that cops use on mass law.

If someone wants to disagree with this thats fine however irrsponsible that may be, but if someone takes advice contrary to an official and respected source then that's his / her problem when they have to show up at their trial. the crux is if someone really has a question as to what is legal, they need to research it themselves for an answer.

This message board will give references as to the best places to find an answer, but this board is not the place to find out what is legal or not, it's a place of ideas and a place to start the reaserch.

It doesn't look like anybody uses real names and gives what their job is in the profile. For A LEO I think it would be a big liability issue to be identified with your opinion. That opinion may wind up biting you in court some day.

Your opinion will not keep you from being arrested, prosecuted, put in jail or shot.

Just My Opinion.

Mach


Posted by: SOT

Good points


Here's my "putting it on the line"

www.cqbarms.com

Myself or any number of my instructors, including three of our NRA Training Councelors will stand behind what we have offered here as advice. You take the class we stand behind the advice, a few of us have been to court and have testified as "experts" per various state requirements for "expert witnesses"

Since there is also a LTC class that was approved by the State of MA, called the CQB Arms Personal Protection Course (although the website does not reflect it) anyone here (trainers here) will also stand behind that course information as well.

In the end there is the law as it it written, there is the law as it is enforced and, and there is the law as it is judged. Playing any one against the other is a risk that is NOT worth it in MA, not when it comes to guns.
You have to have BIG money and be willing to risk your freedom and "rights".

The right answer about drinking and carrying a gun, DON'T. It's such a fundemental rule of firearms.

Lest we forget, it may not be in the "law" but it's a RULE of responsible firearms ownership.

"Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns."

And yes people ask "what about asprin" what about "cough drops", the answer is to that" If you don't have common sense enough to figure that out, don't own guns.
(Note: this wasn't directed at you, just a comment in general)


Posted by: Mach

"Good points "
Thanks


"Here's my "putting it on the line"

"www.cqbarms.com "
I appreciate that, but without your full name and job title with a phone number and extension, I have no way to verify you are who you say you are. Not directed at you, but applies to everyone on this forum

"Myself or any number of my instructors, including three of our NRA Training Councelors will stand behind what we have offered here as advice. You take the class we stand behind the advice, a few of us have been to court and have testified as "experts" per various state requirement for "expert witnesess" "

My point exactly, someone wants the real answer, they take the class. You just provided the reader of this forum with the info to find the real accountable answer. Take the class at www.cqbarms.com. Of course the instructors aren't going to do the jail time if they teach someone wrong, the person that broke the law will, so you can say they stand behind the advice or the class content, but it won't matter much to the judge if they are wrong, or the student misunderstood. It is still up to the individual to get all available info , make a decision and live with that decision on what they think the law says> A judge may agree or disagree. Legal precedents help in this matter, as does common sense and being conservative.

"Since there is also a LTC class that was approved by the State of MA, called the CQB Arms Personal Protection Course (although the website does not reflect it) anyone here (trainers here) will also stand behind that course information as well. "
Exactly, here's the advice someone was asking for, now if you want to stake your freedom on it, take the class.

"In the end there is the law as it it written, there is the law as it is enforced and, and there is the law as it is judged. Playing any one against the other is a risk that is NOT worth it in MA, not when it comes to guns.
You have to have BIG money and be willing to risk your freedom and "rights". "

I agree completely. Everyone in this country is told they have a right to their opinion, the problem arises when they think that because they have a right to have an opinion, they now think that opinion is important, even when contrary to established interpretation of the law.


"The right answer about drinking and carrying a gun, DON'T. It's such a fundamental rule of firearms. Lest we forget, it may not be in the "law" but it's a RULE of responsible firearms ownership. "

Absolutely, not always practical for a LEO though. Though as you said, it's not the law.


"Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns."

Absolutely. You should include fatigue here too. fatigue can be a much bigger mental and motor impairment facilitator than all of the above. Again, not always practical for a LEO.

And yes people ask "what about asprin" what about "cough drops", the answer is to that" If you don't have common sense enough to figure that out, don't own guns.

I agree 100%. But it is a constitutional RIGHT that has nothing to do with common sense. Most places don't require a safety course. I took the safety course in MA, and to be honest it was just not indepth enough for someone wanting to carry a gun around. No breakdown and cleaning safety, no off range safety, no lethal encounter safety, no loading, unloading and tactical safety considerations and precautions, just a quick and dirty range safety course. No major muscle motor in stress environment discussion. No proper technique for practice discussion.Nothing like you get in a LEO safety course. But then again, what do you want for $50 and 30 minutes and 60 rounds.

(Note: this wasn't directed at you, just a comment in general)

Thanks for the above comment

The bottom line is that people are free to make decisions. The smarter people make informed conservative decisions, but everyone has to live with the consequences of those decisions.

I enjoyed the discussion, thanks.

Sorry for the big thread creep.

Mach


Posted by: AFCOP

[quote="SOT_II";p="55029"]Rules of the thumbs: (so to speak)

Military facilities prolly not a great idea but it REALLY depends.


Roger that, federal military installations ie Army posts/Air Force Bases, stations etc you can bring a firearm on but depending on the type there are different requirements...
(Air Force Installations) Handguns you need to check at the armory at the local cop shop,
rifle's shotguns you can keep at your residence (military family housing) firearms of any type are expressly prohibited in the enlisted dormitories
Also local rules can vary depending on the installation cc (even for AF Cops )

-G7




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