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Firearm Transportation

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Posted by: Curious EMT

Does a locked glove compartment "qualify" for a secure location for storage of an unloaded firearm?

Thanks!


Posted by: Philly

NO!


Posted by: Curious EMT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly";p=&quot View Post
NO!
WHY NOT!!!!! My BFC Instructor couldnt answer this (the origional question)


Posted by: anesthes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious EMT";p=&quot View Post
Does a locked glove compartment "qualify" for a secure location for storage of an unloaded firearm?

Thanks!
http://www.mass.gov/chsb/frb/frb_faqs.html

"Can I leave my gun in my car if I need to go into the store on my way home from the range or from hunting?

A: If your handgun or large capacity rifle or shotgun is transported in accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 140, §131C (i.e. unloaded and in a locked case, locked trunk or other secure container) then the gun may be left unattended in the vehicle. Weapons transported in this manner will automatically be considered "stored or kept" in compliance with the safe storage requirements of §131L.

A person leaving a non-large capacity rifle or shotgun in an unattended vehicle is required to lock the rifle or shotgun in a case/container or in the trunk, or install a mechanical locking device on the weapon (i.e. cable or trigger lock)"


Posted by: anesthes

I want to add something to this.

If you keep your firearm in your "glove box" and it is a locked glove box, you may very well be in compliance with the law, however if someone steals your vehicle, and gains access to your firearm, you could be liable for any misuse of that firearm.

And in addition, how would you feel if some drug addict used your handgun to kill some little girl ?

If you need to keep your firearm in your vehicle, buy a really nice transportable safe and keep it under the seat, or in the trunk. I don't mean a lockbox, I mean a fireproof safe, and thats only for "temporary" storage. (i.e, not overnight, or for long durations of time)

-- Joe


Posted by: SOT

No. It would not be considered "Stored" or "kept" as per MGL and FOPA.

More to the point the "spirit" behind stored or kept is that the firearm is NOT readily accessible to the driver or occupants of the vehicle.

When I teach a class I make it very simple, it' DOES NOT matter what the MGL says....the answer when transporting firearms (handguns) that are not being used for personal protection, rifles or shotguns of ANY capacity...the rule is as follows:

Locked in a case, in the trunk of your car, with ammunition separate and in a locked case.

If you are driving an SUV with no trunk, the same as above but all stored as far away from the passengers as possible and out of sight.

If in a pickup truck, in a bed lockbox with the above conditions or behind the drivers seat out of sight. If extended cab, same as above, behind the rear seat...out of sight.

I also note that it's MUCH better to have a hard sided case then a cloth or vinyl one. It protects the gun better and is just that little be harder to get into.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious EMT";p=&quot View Post
Does a locked glove compartment "qualify" for a secure location for storage of an unloaded firearm?

Thanks!



Posted by: anesthes

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOT_II";p=&quot View Post
No. It would not be considered "Stored" or "kept" as per MGL and FOPA.

More to the point the "spirit" behind stored or kept is that the firearm is NOT readily accessible to the driver or occupants of the vehicle.

Thanks!
the "spirit" ?

The law is very clear. A Locked glove box is a locked container.


I allready pointed out, its not the "ideal" place to store your firearm, but it is still a locked container (if it has a lock)

Quote:
When I teach a class I make it very simple, it' DOES NOT matter what the MGL says....the answer when transporting firearms (handguns) that are not being used for personal protection, rifles or shotguns of ANY capacity...the rule is as follows:

Locked in a case, in the trunk of your car, with ammunition separate and in a locked case.

If you are driving an SUV with no trunk, the same as above but all stored as far away from the passengers as possible and out of sight.

If in a pickup truck, in a bed lockbox with the above conditions or behind the drivers seat out of sight. If extended cab, same as above, behind the rear seat...out of sight.
Although I appreciate your opinion on storage, and pretty much agree that your opinion is the "ideal way", his question was wether or not the glove box is a locked container.

Any reasonable persons opinion would be the lockable glove box was a "locked container". You need a key to open it, and it contains items placed within it.

Unfortunately, it can be pried open in 30 seconds with a large screwdriver, so I still stand behind my opinion. GET A SAFE!!


-- Joe


Posted by: SOT

Please tell me you are a police officer and you think that a locked glove box or console is an apporpriate (minimally acceptable) place for a gun for transportation or storage purposes, that it actually complies with the MGL or the FOPA.
Or that you are a state certified instuctor and teach your students that guns in a glove box or console actually comply for transportation or storage.

The answer again is NO, no glove box, no console can be considered storage as the operator of the vehicle has direct access to it (direct control). In the last MA Firearms Law Review class there were about seven instances via case law that supported the "no glove box, no console rule" for transportation and storage.

The "spirit" was outlined in this fashion- you pull somone over, where is their registration and insurance about 95% of the time? in the glove box or console. So are you saying that a person should reach into the glove box or console with a gun in there? What if the person went to get his registration and proof of insurance before the officer approched the vehicle? At what point can he then be expected to prove that the firearm was stored or not? If an officer walks up to the driver, the console is open and the person had retrieved their reg and POI, and there was a firearm in there...would the firearm be stored or kept as per the MGL with the glove box open and unlocked once opened to retreive POI or Reg? What if they waited for the officer then opened the glove box or console with a gun in there? are they still in compliance with the MGL? What do you think the answers were?

My way is the ideal way and it is the best way as it fully complies with the FOPA and MGL with NO chance for error, mistakes or misunderstanding. Moreso it does not split hairs when it comes to large capacity and non large capacity long guns. Locked in a case, in the trunk or as far removed from the passengers as possible. Ammunition seperate, and locked in a case as well. If you can't meet those simple items, don't own a firearm.

I am very curious about the safe, you are saying that you mount a fireproof safe in you car to transport your long guns?

Also in your review of the MGL, does it allow for a Class B holder to posses or carry a firearm (handgun) in a concealed manner if it's UNLOADED? It's another common class question I get.


http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by anesthes";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOT_II";p=&quot View Post
No. It would not be considered "Stored" or "kept" as per MGL and FOPA.

More to the point the "spirit" behind stored or kept is that the firearm is NOT readily accessible to the driver or occupants of the vehicle.

Thanks!
the "spirit" ?

The law is very clear. A Locked glove box is a locked container.


I allready pointed out, its not the "ideal" place to store your firearm, but it is still a locked container (if it has a lock)

Quote:
When I teach a class I make it very simple, it' DOES NOT matter what the MGL says....the answer when transporting firearms (handguns) that are not being used for personal protection, rifles or shotguns of ANY capacity...the rule is as follows:

Locked in a case, in the trunk of your car, with ammunition separate and in a locked case.

If you are driving an SUV with no trunk, the same as above but all stored as far away from the passengers as possible and out of sight.

If in a pickup truck, in a bed lockbox with the above conditions or behind the drivers seat out of sight. If extended cab, same as above, behind the rear seat...out of sight.
Although I appreciate your opinion on storage, and pretty much agree that your opinion is the "ideal way", his question was wether or not the glove box is a locked container.

Any reasonable persons opinion would be the lockable glove box was a "locked container". You need a key to open it, and it contains items placed within it.

Unfortunately, it can be pried open in 30 seconds with a large screwdriver, so I still stand behind my opinion. GET A SAFE!!


-- Joe



Posted by: Curious EMT

Carrying unloaded concealed is similar to trying to pull meat from a pitbulls mouth.
Going up to bat at a baseball game with out a bat.
Like an EMT responding w.out a stretcher.
It goes on and on.....

ANYWAYS. My work prohibits me carrying a firearm while working, but with all the traveling i do throughout New England, I will be carrying "to" and "from" work.

http://www.handgunsafe.com/4805s.htm.
I made a cardboard box template, and it will fit in both my center console and lockable glove compartment.
I was thiking mag goes in the locked glove box, and the gun locked in the safe in the glove box (they are seperate that way)...


Posted by: SOT

Yeah in that container in a glove box, under the seat, in the trunk, in the console...no problem.

The comment about the unloaded gun was to that other fellow...to get his feeling on what the law and what you could do.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious EMT";p=&quot View Post
Carrying unloaded concealed is similar to trying to pull meat from a pitbulls mouth.
Going up to bat at a baseball game with out a bat.
Like an EMT responding w.out a stretcher.
It goes on and on.....

ANYWAYS. My work prohibits me carrying a firearm while working, but with all the traveling i do throughout New England, I will be carrying "to" and "from" work.

http://www.handgunsafe.com/4805s.htm.
I made a cardboard box template, and it will fit in both my center console and lockable glove compartment.
I was thiking mag goes in the locked glove box, and the gun locked in the safe in the glove box (they are seperate that way)...



Posted by: LenS

I recall this question asked of Chief Ron Glidden (author of the MPI book "Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law") and the answer each time was NO, locking a firearm in a glove compartment is NOT considered "properly secured in accordance with MGL"!

Additionally, I would expect that 95% of LEOs out there would likewise think this was NOT secured and once your issuing Licensing Authority is notified of same, your LTC would undoubtedly be revoked as "not suitable person".

You really need to use the "reasonable person" test. If it doesn't pass that test, it could cost you your LTC (remember it is discretionary) and/or thousands of dollars in legal fees to fight it.

Much smarter to lock it up in the trunk as SOT says, and avoid the potential problems.


Posted by: anesthes

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOT_II";p=&quot View Post
Please tell me you are a police officer and you think that a locked glove box or console is an apporpriate (minimally acceptable) place for a gun for transportation or storage purposes, that it actually complies with the MGL or the FOPA.
Or that you are a state certified instuctor and teach your students that guns in a glove box or console actually comply for transportation or storage.
I said it was a locked container. I also added, it would be stupid to keep the firearm there. I even recommended a safe. I'm not going to twist reason just because it is a stupid thing to do. A locked container is just that, a locked container. If you want to argue what types of locked containers are suitable for specific purposes, then whatever floats your boat.

Quote:
The answer again is NO, no glove box, no console can be considered storage as the operator of the vehicle has direct access to it (direct control). In the last MA Firearms Law Review class there were about seven instances via case law that supported the "no glove box, no console rule" for transportation and storage.
MGL says nothing of direct control. Theres a difference between what the law actually says, and what some people wish it said. Here is what it says:

"(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500"


Quote:
The "spirit" was outlined in this fashion- you pull somone over, where is their registration and insurance about 95% of the time? in the glove box or console. So are you saying that a person should reach into the glove box or console with a gun in there?
No the registration should be attached to the sun visor, like they are suposed to teach you in drivers ed.

Your splitting hairs now.


Quote:
What if the person went to get his registration and proof of insurance before the officer approched the vehicle? At what point can he then be expected to prove that the firearm was stored or not?
Do you often go fishing through your glove box while the officer is approaching your vehicle??

Quote:
My way is the ideal way and it is the best way as it fully complies with the FOPA and MGL with NO chance for error, mistakes or misunderstanding.
I allready recommended he get a safe.

Quote:
I am very curious about the safe, you are saying that you mount a fireproof safe in you car to transport your long guns?
If you can find me a long gun that would fit in his glovebox, i'd like to see it. His question was obviously related to storing his handgun in the glove box. Lets not get too silly now, Sgt.

Quote:
Also in your review of the MGL, does it allow for a Class B holder to posses or carry a firearm (handgun) in a concealed manner if it's UNLOADED? It's another common class question I get.
If it is in a sealed case, hidden under the back seat, isn't it concealed?


The confusing sentence your refering to is:

"that a Class B license shall not entitle the holder thereof to carry or possess a loaded firearm in a concealed manner in any public way or place; and provided further, that a Class B license shall not entitle the holder thereof to possess a large capacity firearm,"

So what do you tell your students?

-- Joe


Posted by: SOT

Again more simply are you a police officer or state certified firearms instructor, or a lawyer in MA?

If none of the above, don't give firearms transportation advice based on your "common sense" because you are wrong.

It's that simple.


Posted by: LenS

To reiterate:

- Do NOT try to use common sense to figure out MA Laws! It will cost you lots of money in court and you will likely lose more than you gain!

- Chief Ron Glidden teaches officers at the Academy and Licensing Officers (seminars for LE, focused on MA firearms laws) that a glove box does NOT qualify as a locked container. He didn't just make this stuff up, but he consulted the attorneys at EOPS (they write regs to enforce MGL), the staff attorneys that wrote our shitty anti-gun laws, etc. Because of tons of mis-information, Ron wrote a book (that's now in the 7th Edition, sold by MPI) on MA firearms laws. He's also chairman of the firearms committees for MCOPA and IACP and the Gun Control Advisory Board (that recommends CMRs to the Sec. of Public Safety on enforcement of the MGLs), so he is educating the chiefs on these interpretations.

-Likewise to your argument, it has been determined (by those that enforce/prosecute the laws) that a locked room is NOT proper storage in a home to keep guns either. Yet a locked cloth case that can be cut open with a knife in 3 seconds DOES qualify! It's NOT about safety or security, it is about idiotic laws that were written and passed by mental midgets to harass lawful gun ownership. But our only choice is to obey the law, work to change it or face the consequences.

So, if you want to buck everything that LE is told to enforce the laws, have a blast. But, please don't tell others to do so, unless they want to be Don Quixote and tilt at windmills while they lose their savings and freedom to own firearms for their foolishness.


Posted by: mpd61

Anesthes...............

Take a chill pill. You'll be O.K. after a nice nap



Posted by: texdep

Quote:
It's NOT about safety or security, it is about idiotic laws that were written and passed by mental midgets to harass lawful gun ownership.
A little off topic but,

Wouldn't it be interesting if you could get a group of the legislators and ask them to see what they really thought they were voting on.

I guess it's hard for me to believe that they could have meant this confusion and foolishness on purpose.


Posted by: anesthes

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpd61";p=&quot View Post
Anesthes...............

Take a chill pill. You'll be O.K. after a nice nap
Hey I'm totally chilled brother!

Slightly off topic, but along the same lines, take a look how the MGL treats storage of an open alcoholic container in a locked glove compartment in a vehicle that doesn't have a trunk.

Perhaps if the MGL was more clear on a "locked" or "Secure" container, we wouldn't need to argue over wether or not a locked container is infact, a locked container, or if its not REALLY a locked container, its just a container with a lock?

-- Joe


Posted by: LenS

Quote:
Originally Posted by texdep";p=&quot View Post
A little off topic but,

Wouldn't it be interesting if you could get a group of the legislators and ask them to see what they really thought they were voting on.

I guess it's hard for me to believe that they could have meant this confusion and foolishness on purpose.
A totally different bill was being voted on back in 1998, it went to a "conference committee" and five legislators (Cheryl Jacques was the chief instigator) who were totally anti-gun re-wrote the bill as an 80 section mess. Leadership DEMANDED that all legislators vote FOR the bill, sight unseen. Debate was cut off and it was so voted. Very few legislators read what they were voting on, but they were told that a vote against it could cost them their chairmanships (which increases their salary dramatically), etc.

The above info came from my State Rep (who I've known personally for probably 25 years . . . and he's anti-gun himself) and a few others that were in the "know" in addition to the fact that I actually watched the debate being cut off and the vote taken on "Gavel to Gavel" (Ch. 44) when it happened.

So, no they had no idea what they voted on when it passed into law.




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