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Main Page The Killing Mindset
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: kttref

"If the sword is always sheathed, it will become rusty, the blade will dull, and people will think as much of its owner." —Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai

November 02, 2007
"If the sword is always sheathed, it will become rusty, the blade will dull, and people will think as much of its owner." —Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai

Recently the FBI published a study entitled "Violent Encounters: A study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers," which found that criminal gang members and other felons practice their skills with firearms more often and shoot more accurately then the police officers they try to kill. The research was conducted and summarized in a report by clinical forensic psychologist Dr. Anthony Pinizzotto and criminal investigative instructor Ed Davis. Both are now with the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit. Also contributing to this study was Charles Miller III, coordinator of LEO's Killed and Assaulted statistical program. An in-depth article covering the findings of this study was published by the Force Science Research Center; it is recommended reading.

The research carefully studied over 800 violent encounters and selected 40 incidents involving 43 offenders, including 13 who were admitted gang members and drug dealers. The 40 selected incidents also involved 50 law enforcement officers. Both the cops and the bad guys were interviewed in detail and crime scenes were visited to glean valuable information in understanding these lethal encounters.

Although I have encountered many of the circumstances described in this study during my 30+ years as a gang assault investigator with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, it was shocking to read just how much of a disadvantage the average officer has over the felons who would attempt to kill him. A great number of the gang homicides and drive-by shootings that I have investigated involved lethal shots to the victim's head, which means that they shoot pretty good, even from a moving car. I have seen many photographs of White, Hispanic, African American, and Asian gang members practicing their weapons skills "at the range."

Judging by this photographic evidence, Asian Gangs conduct the most training and preparation for a firefight. Video captured in an Asian Boyz case a few years ago shows the gang repeatedly firing at two 55-gallon drums from two moving vehicles. A follow vehicle would then stop and a designated shooter would run up to the drums and at close range administer the "Todome" (Japanese) or "Coup de Grace" (French), simulating the killing of any surviving victims.

In a Los Angeles FOX 11 TV news story, white gang members from the PEN1 Death Squad are seen practicing with pistols and shotguns on targets meant to simulate African Americans.

In contrast to the preparation undertaken by gang members, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department requires all sworn deputies to qualify at the shooting range only once every quarter. Many deputies have difficulty meeting this minimal test. Thirty years ago, we were required to qualify every month. While many police officers in my era were hunters, had military experience, or were otherwise familiar with shooting firearms, this is not true today. In those former days our LASD range had reloading equipment; we utilized the empty brass, and produced cheep practice ammunition. The range staff encouraged us to use this ammunition in frequent and extended trips to the range for hours of recreational shooting. Today LASD deputies are pushed through the standard qualification course in assembly line fashion. This regimented punching holes in paper is not the kind of preparation you need to survive a "close encounter of the worst kind," and good luck finding a safe place to shoot for recreation in the Los Angeles area.

According to the FBI's Violent Encounters study, some offenders admitted to regularly carrying weapons at the ages of nine to 12 years old. On average, the offenders were 17 years old when they first were armed "most of the time." Gang members were highlighted as starting especially young. Surprisingly, almost 40 percent of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. 80 percent reported that they "regularly practiced with handguns," averaging about 23 practice sessions a year. That means that they practiced on average six times more often than LASD requires of its deputies. But the average victim officer averaged even less: only about 14 hours of sidearm training and only 2.5 qualifications in a year. Only six of the 50 officers reported regular practice outside of the department.

Before they even attacked officers in the studied incidents, more than 40 percent of the felons admitted to being involved in prior shooting confrontations. Ten of the offenders were described as "street combat veterans" with five or more "criminal fire fights" in their lifetimes all of them from inner city drug-trafficking environments. How many have you experienced?

One of the "street combat veterans" said he was only 14 years old when he was first shot on the street and "about 18 before a cop shot me." Another reported that getting shot was a pivotal experience, "because I made up my mind no one was gonna shoot me again." One offender talked about practice and motivation, he fired 12 rounds striking the victim officer four times. The officer fired seven rounds, all of them were misses.

In general, all of the offenders were more successful in getting rounds on target than their officer counterparts. 70 percent of the offenders got at least one hit and only 40 percent of the officers scored a hit. Ed Davis pointed out that the offenders in all but three incidents fired first catching the officer by surprise. This put the officers at an immediate disadvantage. Ten of the victim officers were impaired by their wounds in attempting to return fire.

The most disturbing aspect of the report is the disparity of the mindsets held by the offenders and the officers. Having had many encounters with career offenders and prison gang members, I knew that this was an important factor, but underestimated its effects. The Violent Encounters study pointed out many of the victim officers had experienced an average of four "hazardous situations where they had the legal authority" to use deadly force "but chose not to shoot." The researchers concluded, "It appears clear that none of these officers were willing to use deadly force against an offender if other options were available."

On the other hand, the offender's mindset was totally different. Davis said that the study team "did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is, to killing in the next instant." The repot states, "Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms… In fact the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot first mentality."

Got big plans for this weekend? Watching the football or baseball game on your new HD television? Thinking about a night out with the boys or girls? Maybe you are planning a round of golf? Well, maybe you should listen to Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman when he says, "Piss on Golf!" Practice your martial arts skills, especially your shooting skills. Practice and prepare for that bad day, that violent encounter.

Posted by: Killjoy

I've read this article before...interesting.

The criminals generally practice more than we do, carry firearms more often (you non-carry off-duty types might want to pay attention here...criminals are never "off-duty"), and are far more willing to use lethal force than we are.

Feeling empathy for others is important; its part of what separates us from the wolves. But when you strap on your gun and vest, you wear the mantle of the sheepdog, and you better put empathy and sympathy out of your head...it could get you or someone else killed.

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy

I've read this article before...interesting.

The criminals generally practice more than we do, carry firearms more often (you non-carry off-duty types might want to pay attention here...criminals are never "off-duty"), and are far more willing to use lethal force than we are.

Feeling empathy for others is important; its part of what separates us from the wolves. But when you strap on your gun and vest, you wear the mantle of the sheepdog, and you better put empathy and sympathy out of your head...it could get you or someone else killed.

I am not sure they practise more than we do and if they do shame on the officer/s who do not practice on their own. During the early 90s when Boston was facing 100 to 150 murders most done by gang members the word was its a good thing the gangs cant shoot straight or there would be 300 + murders.

However I do agree with the report that the criminals are far more willing to shot us than we are to shoot them. I know officers who are hesitant and are affraid to use deadly force because they are sheep and not wolves when they need to be. The one thing I learned in my active shooter training is who to go into the building and who not to go into the building with. In some cases I would be better off going in alone instead of the false security I might have with the officer in question.

Posted by: DJM1968

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Wampanoag

However I do agree with the report that the criminals are far more willing to shot us than we are to shoot them. I know officers who are hesitant and are affraid to use deadly force because they are sheep and not wolves when they need to be. The one thing I learned in my active shooter training is who to go into the building and who not to go into the building with. In some cases I would be better off going in alone instead of the false security I might have with the officer in question.

What do you think should be done to change that? Is it a question of more training, or more psychological conditioning, or is it just some inborn characteristic that someone either has or doesn't have?

(I ask because I'm currently reading On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, and I'm wondering how his research compares with the experience of officers in the field.)

Posted by: fidelis98

I dont think that it is just a question of increasing training or conditioning, but more of anti-gun laws being strenghened with harsher punishments. Repeat offenders killing or shooting at officers blows my mind. Its as if the society is making it easy for known gang members and felons to be on the street and armed. These people will always carry, its to easy for them to get weapons. Let alone the fact that the typical officer carries a 9mm with a standard vest. Gang members have much more at their disposal. Unfair advantage, with deadly results.

Posted by: Inspector

Now this is great information to me. I've just very successfully gone through regular qualifications but learned there is now a shortage of ammunition because of increased ammo. costs, Iraq and budget cuts. This means I have to pay for any more practice ammo if when I go out on my own.

Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by fidelis98

I dont think that it is just a question of increasing training or conditioning, but more of anti-gun laws being strengthened with harsher punishments. Repeat offenders killing or shooting at officers blows my mind. Its as if the society is making it easy for known gang members and felons to be on the street and armed. These people will always carry, its to easy for them to get weapons. Let alone the fact that the typical officer carries a 9mm with a standard vest. Gang members have much more at their disposal. Unfair advantage, with deadly results.

It's already illegal for criminals to possess guns, so more laws will accomplish absolutely nothing. No street thug will tell his buddy, "Yeah. I'd love to buy that Glock but I already bought one gun from another other shitbird this month so I'm at my limit" or "Gee, this rifle you want to sell me has a detachable magazine, a flash suppressor and a bayonet lug - that's too many prohibited features so I can't buy it." There are more than enough laws already and if anything they empower the criminals even further by making their victims defenseless rather than discourage them from performing their criminal acts. If these people will always carry and it is easy to get weapons the better defense is to level the playing field. You cannot click your heels together three times and make all the guns in the country disappear. Pandora's box has been open for a long time on that one. The defense lies elsewhere.

There is no one solution to this situation. There are many factors - the criminal themselves and their mindset, the police and their mindset, the courts and society's view, and the breeding grounds of gangs and thugs.

Looking objectively the sad truth is that the criminals approach their job far more seriously than the police. The nature of their business requires that they constantly be on a state of alert, they are predators but they are also prey - their hunters are their rivals who are as ruthless and dangerous as themselves and the police, while not as ruthless or dangerous still represent a threat to what they do. Their ruthlessness and violence secures their standing and reputation among their peers. You don't want to fuck with a cold hard killa. Criminals don't get vacation time, paid holidays, personal time and sick leave. They sleep with one eye open. They don't have to deal with citizen complaints, lawsuits, second-guessing by defense attorneys, the press, the public or their supervisors. These are some of the factors that cause a police officer to take a less aggressive and more reactive stance while giving more power to the criminal. Cops have a family to support, bills to pay and a pension to secure. It's safer to lay low and clean up the mess than stick your head out and get it bitten off. Yeah, there are those who train, practice and prepare but there seem to be many more who are content to strap on the blinders and feedbag for 8 hours and then go home. They play the odds and conduct themselves under the belief that it will not happen to them.

Ultimately the criminals need to be dealt with in a firm and severe manner. Follow the track of many firearms possession cases and you will see the majority being lost or reduced due to defense wrangling, plea bargains, lax judges and a woefully apathetic public. Hugs and cuddles just don't cut it boys and girls. These people need to have their asses handed to them to drive the point home.

The root causes of the street crime need to be addressed. Not too many gang members come from affluent communities and stable homes. They come from multigenerational welfare societies, single mother and multi-father homes, cultures with no work ethic and a dismal future. They lack the adventure and excitement of sports, travel and learning. They have no motivation to better themselves. Their future lies within a 2 mile radius of their hood and the success stories they see and hear about are the gangsta rapper thugs wearing pounds of gold chains, waving money in the air, slapping ho's on they butts, and cappin' mothafuckas. As long as our politicians pander to an entitlement mentality the problem will grow and grow, until the system is unable to sustain it. Then the real shit will hit the fan, when millions of uneducated, unskilled and desperate people are cut loose to fend for themselves.

Posted by: TacEntry

Excellent post Wolfman.

x2! Great Post Wolfman. Gun Control is Liberal Moonbat BS.

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM1968

I have never been in a shoot out however plenty of fights. Its the fight or flight mentality. You have to have them both psychologically, training can give you the better way to physically fight but you have to have the mind set to make that discission. (however MCJTC is not always the way, they are more focused on the civil liability of the state, town or city and less on the officer owns safety) If you are too scared, unwilling, or just psychologically not prepared or have never been in a physical confrontation your going to loose. Side note many officers are like this because of their personality, however some are like this because they are afraid of being sued. They have this mind set that when an individual has physically assaulted them they can not {and you know we all been taught not to}: close hand punch, kick, bite, spit, gouge, headbut, grab the groin, use you knife etc.. instead we catch a beating when we could have won the fight or at least come out unhurt.
Flight is a very useful tool if fact going into police, security work I actually had to be taught and trained how to flight. I was always under the assumtion that I had to over come any confrontations I physically was involved in. Most fights with officers are because you are trying to place an individual in custody or have discovered the individual in some kind of criminal activity. If the 6ft 4in 25yr All American college football player is resisting let go push off call for back up flight the confrontation. If you continue to fight and struggle with the shit bag, he will instead of focusing his efforts from being arrested he will eventually turn on you, seriously hurting you as an officer. There is nothing wrong with backing off and waiting for back up. We call it a tactical retreat or tactical stance.
I apologize for getting off the subject of shoot outs but this fight or flight has everything to do with officer mindset in violent confrontations. DMJ to answer you question it's mostly in born characterisics you either have it or you don't. If you do training can be and is a very useful tool

It's a quality just like honesty, integrity, athletic ability, intelligence etc.. most police departments dont look for these mindsets when hiring they think like many others do that the academy is going to train them into having the fight/flight quality. Many departments and unfortunately co officers find out thats not the case.
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Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

Gang members have much more at their disposal. Unfair advantage, with deadly results.

What do you think gang members roll with? .50 caliber Brownings and Steyr Augs? Despite what the media portrays most gang members are armed with nothing more than rusty pistols and the occasional sawed down hunting shotgun. Like Wolfman says, its not the tools, its the lethal mindset that makes them deadly.

Most people who become police officers did so out of a desire to do some good, not because they want to shoot people. When presented with the opportunity in that half-a-heartbeat it takes a deadly force encounter to occur, many police officers can't find it within themselves to take a life. Its not a failure of the officer, its a failure of their training. During WWII it was discovered that fewer than 20% of soldiers consciously aimed at, shot and killed enemy soldiers. The other 80% shot towards the enemy, but not at them...they didn't want to kill other human beings. Better training in the military led to a 80% rate of soldiers actually aiming at and killing enemy soldiers in Vietnam.

In policing, administrators are more interested in "qualifying" i.e. putting a checkmark on a column, than "training" i.e. actually teaching something to officers. As long as an officer can punch holes in paper, the administrators are going to called him "qualified". This is perpetuated by complacent officers who would rather have a twenty-minute qualification session then to actually try to learn something. There is a long road between the mechanical skills of shooting a weapon and the reality of a deadly force encounter. "Tombstone courage", complacency and a refusal to see that it could happen to you all contribute to policing injures and deaths. Policing is an unforgiving profession, and conversely as its gotten "safer" (with better equipment, radios, body armor etc.), its allowed a distinctly non-warrior mentality to fester in its ranks.

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