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Main Page Carry off duty?
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Posted by: Upandcoming

I know this topic has been discussed before but I just had a conversation with my wife about carrying off duty.

HER SIDE: "She has been uncomfortable around guns, and the fear that something accidental might happen. She would prefer them not to be around our children just in case something did happen. Not to mention she does not want our kids feeling so comfortable seeing guns when they are not being used for work. She worries that having that perception might make them feel that its okay to touch them or use them when not working. She wants our kids to think about guns as a tool for when dad goes to work not as something we just carry around for fun"

MY SIDE: Our job is dangerous and you never know when and where you might come across some sh*t head that you arrested last night last week or last year or the reaction that he has after you put him away for a period of time. Not only do you have to be on your game when on duty but off duty also and always ready to protect yourself and your family. Also I would not be carrying around the gun in sight of the public but tucked on my side concealed where it belongs (not in view of our children) and when not carrying it would be locked in my safe where it belongs. And not to mention the training that I recieved on gun safety and use of firearms.

I would appreciate your input on this topic and if possible I would like to have the input of your wives/girlfriends about this topic.

Posted by: Mitpo62

Carry off duty? No thanks! I don't even like carrying ON duty....

Posted by: SOT

The right answer:

Have your wife take an NRA safety course with a certified instructor of good repute.
As your children get old enough, explain to them about gun safety, maybe see if there is a range near you that has a youth league or Eddie Eagle program.

Obviously lock up your duty weapon, ALWAYS, and if nothing else teach your kids the basics of Eddie Eagle.

If you see a gun and you are not with an adult.

STOP!
Don't Touch.
Leave the Area.
Tell an Adult.

Quite honestly, it scares me to hear that a cop doesn't like carrying on duty, why be a cop then...why not be a security guard or a flagman?

Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

"She has been uncomfortable around guns, and the fear that something accidental might happen.

What is she worried about? That your gun would spontaneously combust in your holster? That it would fall out and begin shooting itself? Modern gun designs are very safe, unless you are pulling the trigger, nothing will happen. A lack of trust firearms is not an excuse...its a lack of trust in the operator. Explain to her that if you trust me to drive our car, why don't you trust me to carry a gun? Ultimately that's what it comes down to.

Quote:

She would prefer them not to be around our children just in case something did happen.

Would that be when a criminal is pistol whipping daddy? Or some mope is holding a knife to her neck? What she saying is that she wants to protect her children from witnessing daddy putting a round in some mope, and that is a laudable goal. No one wants to expose their children to the horrors of combat. On the other hand burying your head in sand and hoping nothing bad ever happens really isn't a solution either. What's the better alternative; watching daddy zero some scumbag or watching daddy bleed to death because he tried to defend his family with his bare hands? The fact is that you don't have to find trouble, trouble can find you. Interaction with the rest of the world means risk, we don't like to admit it, but we never know what is going to happen next. All your wife is doing is severely impairing your ability to respond to any threat directed at you. She isn't really protecting your children, she's protecting the criminals who want to do your family harm.

Quote:

Not to mention she does not want our kids feeling so comfortable seeing guns when they are not being used for work. She worries that having that perception might make them feel that its okay to touch them or use them when not working. She wants our kids to think about guns as a tool for when dad goes to work not as something we just carry around for fun"

They are being used for work...they're working at protecting your family. You're a police officer. You carry a gun every day. These are facts, and whether your wife likes it or not, the kids are always going to be curious about firearms. It is always better to be open about this issue then making it strictly taboo, hence more interesting to children. Tell your kids you can look at your gun, as long as you are around to supervise. When they get to an appropriate age, a trip to the range can be a very fun and educational experience. The firearm is tool to be handled with respect, and this is much better taught with some positive experiences rather than a refusal to acknowledge their curiosity.

When I started dating my girlfriend, there was a very brief conversation on why I carried everywhere. I stated simply "I'm a police officer, this is who I am and this gun protects both you and I". The conversation was never repeated, and I continue to carry virtually everywhere I go.

Posted by: NEPS

For twenty one years I have carried off duty as a university and municipal police officer. Long after the new officer's hope of off duty heroism left me, I still think the following: On duty I will rush to protect total strangers (or even people I do not particularly care for), am willing to face actual or potential armed challenges in doing so, and carry a gun for that purpose. I am trained and experienced in the use of a firearm and keeping my cool while carrying one. Off duty how can I not carry that tool to protect the people I do care about?

We tell people that it's only money, and it's better they should give up the money then get hurt, and that's fine, but to the bad guys it is not always only money. Sometimes its the assault, the rape, the murder and the money. I am not a tough guy but I am willing to protect my family and not unwilling to perform a police function in the right circumstances off duty. I carry for these reasons.

As far as children go, I don't emphasize that I carry and they do not typically see the weapon, but they have figured out I have one. I have given them frank reminders that it is not a toy, it is not for them to touch, and they should not tell their friends I bring a gun home. There is only one pistol I bring home and it is on my person or locked up.

My wife's only requirement was that the weapon be locked up.

Weapon security is a big issue when there are teenagers about. Some of your kid's friends may be thieves. If I am going on vacation where I can't secure the pistol, I leave it at the station.

That said, the choice is not for everyone or every situation.

To anyone looking to examine the rationale for carrying off duty, I recommend reading the work of Dave Grossman, who recommends carrying off duty. Don't get turned off by the website name, www.killology.com, because Grossman is an articulate, sensible man who studies what intentional and unintentional factors in human society reduce the natural resistance most people have to taking a life.

Posted by: HousingCop

You never need a gun till you need one REAL bad.
I always say it's better to have & not need, than need & not have.
Maybe your wife wants one of the shitbums to kill you off duty so she can collect the insurance money? Just a thought.

Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upandcoming

I know this topic has been discussed before but I just had a conversation with my wife about carrying off duty.

Reading your question, it seems that it's not just about off-duty carry, there is a bigger issue that needs to be considered.

Quote:

HER SIDE: "She has been uncomfortable around guns, and the fear that something accidental might happen.

Yeah, something deliberate might happen too...like a robbery, carjacking, gang shootout, nutjob with a knife. Guess which happens more often? How does she expect you to protect her - and how do you expect to protect her - unarmed and unprepared? You don't wear a seatbelt because you are planning to hit a tree, you don't have bandages in your closet because you know you are going to go cut your hand on a broken glass. You have these things because you don't know when you will need them but when you do, it better be there.

Quote:

She would prefer them not to be around our children just in case something did happen.

See above. Does she want the children to grow up with the belief that it is more noble to be a victim? The world is a dangerous place. Burying your head in the sand only muffles the noise of your doom.

Quote:

If you keep something from kids, it acquires a mystique and becomes even more attractive to them. More on that later. Your children (and your wife) should not be fearing guns. A gun, alone and undisturbed will never select a victim and kill someone on its own accord. What they should be apprehensive of is the person who chooses to use a gun, or knife, or pointed stick, or rock to do others harm. Your wifes fear is misplaced and unfortunately she is impressing it upon your kids as well.
The answer to this dilemma is EDUCATION. You are going to have firearms in your house. This is a fact. Burying one's head in the sand or placing a stigma on it will never change this fact. It is crucial that you educate your wife and children about firearms, their safe storage and handling. Take your wife to the range, teach her how to shoot. I don't know how old the kids are but they also need to be educated on firearms and yes, they should be comfortable seeing them and being around them so the guns will lose their attraction as a forbidden item.
When my kids were very young, their education was that a gun is not a toy, never touch a gun and if one is seen unattended to tell the closest adult. They were also taught that TV shows, video games and cartoons are not real. As they grew older their education has progressed to include safe handling of firearms, how a firearm works, personal responsibility and physical fitness. This way they understand that a gun is a mechanical device no more evil than a toaster or bicycle. This in turn dissolves the "attractive nuisance" factor. Personal responsibility and physical fitness are unbelievable confidence boosters. A confident child will be more immune to the triggers that set off kids who wind up misusing firearms and explosives. This year the oldest took her first visit to the range and was easily able to handle several different rifles with safety and confidence. She looks forward to return trips but is not obsessed. When I'm cleaning a rifle she is no more intrigued than if I was oiling a squeaky hinge or washing a car.

Quote:

She wants our kids to think about guns as a tool for when dad goes to work not as something we just carry around for fun"

They are a tool, and there are also numerous bona fide reasons to use firearms recreationally. Hunting, marksmanship, competition...not to mention the big daddy of them all, the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. Stand by while I get up on the soapbox...

People have an innate fear of what they do not understand, and it is up to you to educate your wife and undo the mindset that the media and our politicians have embedded in her. If she has never been the victim of a firearm-related assault, her perspective can only have been molded by what she has seen and heard in the media and anecdotally. The media uses sensationalism to sell their product and make profits. Take a recent incident in West Springfield where someone broke a business window with an air powered gun: depending on which news source you read you were greeted with one of these headlines:

So what is the average person going to think when they read the last 2 headlines???

The politicians prey on the fears of the public to further their own goals agendas and pet projects. Socialized health care, mortgage bailouts, drivers licenses and state education for illegals, the unchecked proliferation of welfare...To have the populace dependent on the government is a wet dream to the elected, as it assures their existence and control for generations to come. Do you really want your children to grow up dependent on the government to direct their lives and to protect them from harm? Even more important, do you trust your government to keep your children safe?

(Off the soapbox)

(PS): My wife does not shoot, she's been to the range and has absolutely no desire to learn. She does however understand the importance of our freedom to be able to own firearms, my concerns that 20, 30 or 40 years from now the nation will be a far different place than it is now and our children will need to be able to fend for themselves. Does she "like" guns? No. But she is cool with the children learning about them and how to safely and properly use them.

You need to educate your wife about firearms, then your children. But first, decide where you stand on the matter.

Posted by: id1811xecj

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEPS

On duty I will rush to protect total strangers (or even people I do not particularly care for), am willing to face actual or potential armed challenges in doing so, and carry a gun for that purpose. . .

Off duty how can I not carry that tool to protect the people I do care about?

I am at a xsimilar point in my thinking. On duty, even as a fed, I am expected to act. Off duty, I will act to defend myself, my family, children, and, under more limited circumstances, "normal" women, ie not crack whores or women getting pummeled because they riled up their parolee boyfriend.

Posted by: TacEntry

Great post Wolfman. I second NEPS comment on the LTC David Grossman Books. "On Combat" is a must read for anyone in this field (LEO or Military).

Posted by: kttref

All the things said thus far have been great and informative...but I have a few issues with off-duty weapons myself. I have one, and carry it most places...BUT it's hard to wear/conceal with female clothing...which is why I don't wear it all the time. I do believe it's a necessary part of being an officer - you are there to protect and serve...but don't forget, there are times when it's better to be a good witness. Such as, for example, a bank robbery where you are alone with your kids - that may be a situation in which not to act.

Another idea, when it comes to kids, is have a code word or phrase..it could mean anything to "act like you don't know me", to "run like hell and call 911"....

Kids need to be informed, and if they're comfortable around it that may be better when the shit hits the fan...that way they don't freak the f out when they see mommy or daddy pulling out a weapon to protect them.

My 2 cents.

Posted by: BB-59

Do I carry off duty? "Yes". Do I carry it so people including my family see it? "No".

My wife has no interest in guns at all, as such she has no access to them at all. What she dose have access to is our 105lbs of German Shepherd baby that sincerely believes that she is "mommy" and is very protective of her and my son.

My son who turns 13 on Halloween has no interest in guns either, so he has no access to them and when not under my control are locked away in the safe. He has been trained on the NRA Eddie Eagle program. If he developes an interest he knows to come to me and not some gang banger at school.

Although I have many firearms that I have collected, the ones I use for work and protection are tools to me that may save my life or anothers. To I have firearms for enjoyment and collector value "yes".

Do I believe in an honest, law abiding citizen owning firearms, absolutely!

With no disrespect intended to your wife, it sounds like she is afraid of guns. Be more afraid of the person that uses these for unlawful purposes.

Keeping children ignorant means they find out what they are looking for on their own and usually from the wrong people.

Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

All the things said thus far have been great and informative...but I have a few issues with off-duty weapons myself. I have one, and carry it most places...BUT it's hard to wear/conceal with female clothing...which is why I don't wear it all the time.

I have yet to meet someone who can't conceal a S&W J-frame somewhere discreetly. Even a small .22 auto can take the wind out of an attacker's sails pretty fast, especially when he thinks he's preying on a defenseless woman.

One round is always better than none.

Posted by: soup

Quote:

Originally Posted by id1811xecj

Did anyone ever tell you that you are expected to act while off duty? I don't know what you were told as a Fed, but as a municipal police officer, there is no such thing as "off duty" when you are in the community where you are sworn in. If it happens in front of you and you don't act, God help you if anyone there knows who you are. If you are out of your jurisdiction and a felony, ie: abdw, why wouldn't you act? I do not carry off duty. The only reason is that the only gun I have is my duty weapon:the large Glock .40 and I need to gat a smaller one.
I have three kids, 10,6, and 3. They are all aware that I have a gun and could care less. It is locked away and they have all been given the talk about gun safety.

Posted by: kttref

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Problem is, to carry off duty we have to qualify on a pretty difficult course. We are only allowed to carry 9, 40, 45's. I have a Glock 26 (9)...which I get crap for because it's a "girly" gun...like you said, "one round is always better than none."

Posted by: id1811xecj

The "expected to act" language comes directly from our rules. Although federal jurisdiction is wide geographically, it is narrow in scope. ADW is only subject to our jurisdiction if it occurs on federal property with exclusive or concurrent jurisdiction or when directed at narrow classes of people, such as federal employees or federal witnessess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by soup

If you are out of your jurisdiction and a felony, ie: abdw, why wouldn't you act? I do not carry off duty.

Because it is not my problem.

As a young man, I was involved in several off duty incidents. They invariably went sideways. Off duty + No radio + out of uniform+by yourself= bad idea

Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

I forgot you're not in MA - do you only carry under the badge or do you have a regular license to carry as well? Seems that as a private citizen, with a pistol permit or other CCW you could carry whatever you see fit to use for personal protection while off the clock.

Posted by: Killjoy

Great post, Wolf. KT!

KT, my Class A LTC says "All Lawful Purposes", not "All Lawful Purposes with your duty firearm". Your Chief could no more regulate what you carry on your own time any more than he could tell what kind of POV to drive. So-called "off-duty qualification" is nothing more than legal insulation for departments, not the letter of the law.

Posted by: kttref

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I have a pistol permit, and HR 218...I can carry anywhere anytime...but we have some people in my department who have set it up that if you have a backup weapon or an off duty weapon you MUST qualify. No option. I'm not sure what the reasoning is, and I don't ask - being as I've only been on a little over 2 years I don't ask questions in regards to too many policies...I'd rather not ruffle too many feathers yet...so I do what I'm told.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy

Great post, Wolf. KT!

KT, my Class A LTC says "All Lawful Purposes", not "All Lawful Purposes with your duty firearm". Your Chief could no more regulate what you carry on your own time any more than he could tell what kind of POV to drive. So-called "off-duty qualification" is nothing more than legal insulation for departments, not the letter of the law.

You are most likely correct in the "legal insulation" comment...but, like I said, I try not to ruffle too many feathers. Let me get like 5 years on before I start "fighting the man"

Posted by: PBC FL Cop

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

Just remember, if you ever had to use an off-duty weapon, which you were not qualified with, you would ONLY be violating a policy, not the law. Your safety and the safety of your loved ones should always be first and foremost over the liability concerns of your agency's policy makers.

A firearm is a tool of your trade, which has the potential of saving your life or the life of another. If you choose to go without it, BAAAAA

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Posted by: mpd61

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

I have a Glock 26 (9)...which I get crap for because it's a "girly" gun...like you said, "one round is always better than none."

Kate!

1. Anybody who says the glock 26 is a 'girly gun" is a complete moron.
2. A solid hit from a 9mm is better than a miss from a 45!
3. I carry a Walther P-22 off duty sometimes. Again, I can confidently deploy and shoot accurately with it. So who cares?

Really some of these gay cabelleros nedd to STFU!

Posted by: jettsixx

I carry everywhere I go. Its like my American Express card only I use it alot less. My fiance knows I carry and she doesnt really care, when Im at work my 90lb shepard is home with her and the three other dogs and they are all very protective of her.

Posted by: soup

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

Doesn't HR 218 say you can carry anywhere anytime provided you have a police ID and badge?
On my job we have a policy that states that if you use a weapon off duty for a "police action", the dept does not have to indemnify you if you did not qualify with it. At first they tried to say we needed the chiefs permission to carry off duty at all. I demanded that the policy be bargained in and had those word "with the chiefs permission" deleted. My argument was that I had a class A LTC and did not need his/her permission to carry off duty. But if under HR218 you are required to have a police ID and Badge, and you are using them to carry anywhere/anytime, then the chief can control what you are carrying, can't he/she?

Posted by: PBC FL Cop

Quote:

Originally Posted by soup

But if under HR218 you are required to have a police ID and Badge, and you are using them to carry anywhere/anytime, then the chief can control what you are carrying, can't he/she?

The simple answer is no. A chief can set policy, which dictates the type of weapons an officer can carry and a course of training required in order to carry said weapon. Violations of the policy could be enforced by the chief as well, but a policy would not supersede HR 218, which allows active LEO's to carry firearms throughout the US, nor would it negate an LEO who possessed a state issued "license to carry". One would not be breaking the law merely by violating an agency's policy.

Posted by: screamineagle

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

I told my uncle (retired SEAL) that nine mm were girly guns. (SEALS carry sig P226 9mm). He told me " tell me how girly it is when I put two rounds in your chest and one in your head." nuff said.

Posted by: Duff112

Quote:

Originally Posted by screamineagle

I told my uncle (retired SEAL) that nine mm were girly guns. (SEALS carry sig P226 9mm). He told me " tell me how girly it is when I put two rounds in your chest and one in your head." nuff said.

You know when people type in "LOL" They may or may not have "Laughed out Loud"...

Eagle- I literally laughed out loud on that one. PRICELESS

My take on this issue is this, plain and simple. I am a COP. My job involves me carrying a firearm. I understood this prior to accepting a position with a police department. I also work for my family business, which doesn't require me to carry a firearm, but I do anyway, and everyone who knows me THINKS
I carry a firearm, but of course, I don't advertise it. My family knows what I do (Which includes young kids) and don't question me about it.

It is part of who I am. It doesn't MAKE me who I am.

Posted by: kttref

See, I'm not the only one who feels a 9mm can actually hurt! See, I knew I could trust you guys to support me.

You guys all make valid points. In fact, this is one of the best conversations we've had on this board in awhile!

Posted by: Kem25

I carry off duty whenever possible. My fiance is all for me carrying off duty (glock 27, inside the pants holster). I look at it this way...Whether you are off duty or in uniform you are a police officer and you never know what could happen where you may need a firearm....To all those people who say "Sometimes it is better to be a good witness" would you not jump into a situation were a fellow officer was in trouble, needed immediate help and you could help them? (any police officer that would not should just hang it up in my opinion) How would you feel if an officer was hurt right in front of you and you have to explain to people that you were off duty and did not want to get involved? My fiance knows if I ever get into any situation that she is to get away from me as quickly and safely as possible, call 911, tell them what is happening and also provide a description of me and what I am wearing so responding officers know there is an off duty officer present. I think this post may promt someone to post the Grossman article about Wolves, Sheepdogs and Sheep!

Posted by: Inspector71

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

You guys all make valid points. In fact, this is one of the best conversations we've had on this board in awhile!

I agree. The main factor being that 94c, papahoika, and others resisted the urge to ridicule you or anyone else...

Posted by: kttref

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kem25

To all those people who say "Sometimes it is better to be a good witness" would you not jump into a situation were a fellow officer was in trouble, needed immediate help and you could help them? (any police officer that would not should just hang it up in my opinion)

I think everyone here would agree that if a fellow officer were in trouble they would jump at the chance to help...BUT with that being said, I think that it might be a different situation if an officer were with his or her small children and the same happened. I don't have kids, so I don't know, but that is what people I work with tell me. Some have said, no matter the situation, if they are with their family (no matter who is getting hurt and how bad) they will not get involved...and I can see their point. Do you really want to risk getting killed right in front of your children?

Posted by: MM1799

If a fellow officer was in trouble, I wouldn't hesitate to assist. I would expect the same in return if I needed help.

In my family we have a couple of "keywords" (much like kttref suggested early). If the shit hit the fan and my wife was there I would have her shuffle the kids away and act appropriately. If I was alone with my kids I would utter specific words to instruct whether to go to the car and wait, call 911, etc. I would recommend anyone with kids to come up with a plan just in case you need to act -- much like a fire drill. Also be mindful of where you are going. The best defense is to stay the hell away from those "trouble areas" that we all know -- especially with your family in tow.

Posted by: csauce777

Quote:

Originally Posted by kttref

I have a 3 year old daughter. She obviously cant fend for herself in the event that something bad happened (ie: "Run and call 911"). If I am with my daughter and my wife is not with us, the only way I am intervening is if I cant get my daughter to safety and defending her requires my involvment. If my back is against the wall, and I have my little girl is with me, someone is gonna buy the farm, period. If I'm alone and armed, circumstances that I would get involved in off duty would broaden.

Posted by: 5-0

Quote:

Originally Posted by csauce777

I would be happy if I could carry ON-duty... but that's another thread. Csauce hit on a couple points that influence when I carry. It's situational, and my logic may be kind of strange. I am more likely to carry when I am out with my kids because it's tough for me to do anything (physically defend myself, run, call 911) when I have a double stroller with 2 midgets (1.5 and 4). I carry when I am by myself if I am in an area where I might see DYS kids that I used to work with or people I have had an encounter with on the job. I am a campus PO and Part-Time in my town at the moment, but have a feeling that I will carry off-duty more when I am full-time and cranking out more arrests.

Posted by: soup

I never said that you would be violating the law. But if you break dept policy it could cost you a lot of money and possibly your job defending your actions. At the very least if you carry what your qualified with your dept has an obligation to indemnify you.

Posted by: Killjoy

Just because you happen to carry off duty, doesn't mean you HAVE to do anything if a crime occurred in front of you. It simply gives you the option to do something other than sit on your hands.

Example #1 : Domestic assault in the parking lot of a mall. I would call 911 on my cellphone and do nothing, assuming one party wasn't murdering the other party. If they were, then I would have my family flee to safety and I would attempt to "resolve" the situation.

Example #2 : Armed robbery in the convenience store loaded with customers and my family. I would do nothing, assuming the robber simply took the money and ran. However, what would you do if the robber thought it would be good idea to take one of your kids hostage? Or if he decided to shoot the clerk, then kill the witnesses? If you're not packing...bring your sheep costume.

Obviously every situation is subjective, being armed simply gives one the luxury of fighting back if you had to. I'm pretty sure no department would fault an officer for choosing not to act because he was with his family or because there was too many friendlies.

KT - There's nothing wrong with the 9mm cartridge. Loaded with appropriate hollowpoints, its nothing short of devastating. A 9mm you're carrying on you is better then a .44 magnum you left at home.

Posted by: kttref

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy

KT - There's nothing wrong with the 9mm cartridge. Loaded with appropriate hollowpoints, its nothing short of devastating. A 9mm you're carrying on you is better then a .44 magnum you left at home.

Very valid point...and thank you

Posted by: Wolfman

Seecamp LWS-32 .32 acp pistols - no concealment problems here, just be careful you don't forget it's in your pocket & run it thru the wash!

$499 @ Four Seasons...

Posted by: secret squirrel

I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it!!!

As far as your wife, i guess it is what she feels comfortable with. If she is not proficient or comfortable with it, then what good is it going to do. It may get taken away from her and then what!!!!

Posted by: mpd61

Originally Posted by Killjoy
KT - There's nothing wrong with the 9mm cartridge. Loaded with appropriate hollowpoints, its nothing short of devastating. A 9mm you're carrying on you is better then a .44 magnum you left at home.

Very valid point...and thank you

Goshdarn right there Killjoy. another version of the "loud miss" theory!
We love ya Kate!

Posted by: kttref

Feelin lots of love guys

thanks!

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