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Main Page Cops v. Fire...Who's In Charge? Another Incident
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Posted by: Inspector

With emergency planning and on-scene protocol becoming standardized under FEMA a situation has developed nationwide which pits police against firefighters as to who exactly is in command. This writer has observed that firefighters across the nation were quick to recognize standardized inter-agency operation was going to be forced by FEMA and by jumping in early were able to firmly establish themselves as the lead agency in controlling operations at scenes that are not clearly police situations (ie hostage, robberies). The area of greatest conflict appears to be traffic accident scenes where firefighters administer treatment, cut people from cars, control hazmat and protect against further fire hazard. Firefighters, by training now also see themselves as protecting themselves and scenes, often using apparatus to block traffic lanes and shutting down roadways. In the meantime, police recognizing the need to continue the flow of traffic and investigate the crash while determining any violations, often want to keep traffic moving and clear the scene quickly. We have seen this come to a head in some very messy situations. Here is the latest.

CENTER MORICHES, N.Y. -- A battle of the badges is brewing in Suffolk County because an assistant fire chief was given a $50 ticket when the argued with police about closing a traffic lane at an emergency scene.

Center Moriches Fire Chief Graham Madigan has asked the department's attorney to fight the ticket given to his first assistant chief, William Renzetti.

Suffolk Police and Center Moriches fire responded to an overturned car on the shoulder of the Sunrise Highway on August
16.

Assistant Fire Chief Renzetti wanted to close both eastbound lanes . But the police officer wanted to close just one lane -- and keep the farthest lane open for traffic.

During the argument a patrol sergeant wrote Renzetti the ticket for refusing to obey a lawful order.

Patchogue attorney Harold Trabold, who represents the Center Moriches Fire Department, said Renzetti was "definitely pleading not guilty.''

Posted by: phuzz01

If fire wants to control traffic at the scene, fine. I will show up, get the driver's license and registration info., and clear immediately. Then fire can handle all of the secondary crashes that result and field all of the angry phone calls because traffic backed up for 8 miles due to a minor accident with no PI that is well off the roadway.

Posted by: KozmoKramer

Quote:

But the police officer wanted to close just one lane -- and keep the farthest lane open for traffic.

Wow, this cops a real maverick huh. Using a little common sense to keep traffic moving.
If there was any legitimate reason to close all lanes I'm sure the Center Moriches patrol sgt. would have.
When it comes to evaluating traffic issues I think the police have far greater expertise.
I seriously doubt the police would place the jakes in a dangerous environment or create a scenario where they were unable to do their jobs effectively.

Posted by: Tackleberry22

Usually when using ICS, the Chief or CO of the Fire Department takes command of a natural or man made disaster scene or anything involving hazardous materials.

Posted by: OutOfManyOne

We're running in the same crap out here. FD is trying to take command at crash scenes, we told them to stop interfering with our investigations or they will be charged.

Posted by: frapmpd24

Even in the situation of a car fire, the fire department has command over the fire scene, which is the vehicle. Thats all good and well, put the water on it a clear as soon as things are safe.

If the fire department had any requests about traffic, they can ask, but it is not a duty of the fire department. We don't put out fires, they don't handle crime scenes. Notwithstanding is the fact that their small vehicle fire is within the larger scene larger scene of a potential criminal investigation; the accident itself, debris, and injured persons/victims. It would be explained like that in those terms to the FD chief, ofcourse getting the spelling of his name correctly for the witness list at court.

Posted by: GD

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutOfManyOne

We're running in the same crap out here. FD is trying to take command at crash scenes, we told them to stop interfering with our investigations or they will be charged.

These Fire Dept chiefs are going to national conferences and bringing the information back, "that there in charge of the SCENE." BS!!

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Until the MV accident is determined non criminal or no one has died in the accident then the fire depts can take responsiblity. When Fire Depts are willing to train their guys in MV accident reconstruction and investigation, OUI etc.. then they can take over the accident.

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspector

This writer has observed that firefighters across the nation were quick to recognize standardized inter-agency operation was going to be forced by FEMA and by jumping in early were able to firmly establish themselves as the lead agency in controlling operations at scenes that are not clearly police situations (ie hostage, robberies).

Am I not reading that correctly? Hostage and robberies...not clearly police situations???

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by SinePari

Am I not reading that correctly? Hostage and robberies...not clearly police situations???

I think those situations (hostage & robberies) were cited as examples of what are police incidents.

If something is on fire, then the fire department is in charge of how to extinguish it. Beyond that, they have no statutory authority I'm aware of, especially in regards to traffic control.

Posted by: spd722

During Inservice a few years ago we had that Incident Command 200 which stated that except for Hazmat Calls, Police are in charge. I believe this class was developed out west by a fire service.

Posted by: adroitcuffs

I'm guessing there's more to this story, that a law enforcement person was so motivated as to issue a citation to an on-duty fire employee. I'm not defending Renzetti here, I'm just finding the media report a little suspect since the media rarely reports the whole story. I've worked collisions on major interstates and much smaller roads. Sometimes even something on the shoulder can be cleared more quickly (and safely) by shutting down the entire road. If other, uninvolved drivers want to complain about the "inconvenience", so be it. Some of those drivers would complain no matter what you do.

While I know an historical "battle" of sorts has existed between police and fire, it seems that as LEO's we could be doing more within our own communities to establish a teamwork mentality between police and fire. I realize some folks will never change. From my own experience, I have reaped the rewards. Firefighters have stepped in as my "back-up" without hesitation. Last Christmas, the firefighters at the main station invited our entire patrol shift over for Christmas dinner while we were working (a true blessing since we were on 12-hour shifts then). Relations weren't quite as amicable between the departments when I first started in my city. No, we're not skipping through the tulips 24/7 now, and they still have a couple knuckleheads - as does my department. The point is, while you can't immediately change what mindset is being taught at a national level, you can impact your own community.

Posted by: wgciv

Quote:

Originally Posted by adroitcuffs

From my own experience, I have reaped the rewards. Firefighters have stepped in as my "back-up" without hesitation.

Posted by: SOT

Look if it's not a declared emergency, the firefighters need to step off.
Maybe he should just plead guilty to being an idiot.

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

The only two situations that the fire department is in charge of in relation to police responses is Arson and the towns / city's Chief of Fire is in charge of the scene when it comes to an "Unexploded Bomb"!!! However it will be the police most likely MSP in my case duty to disarm it. I think police / MSP get the raw deal on this one lol

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