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Police: Our guns are jamming; Port police want immediate replacements

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Posted by: DeputyFife

Published: 08/13/2007
Police: Our guns are jamming; Port police want immediate replacements
By Stephen Tait
Staff Writer



NEWBURYPORT - The metal is fatigued, the parts worn from repeated use and springs weakened from years of service.
Newburyport police officials say the .40-caliber Ruger pistols officers use on the beat often misfire and jam during training exercises, and the malfunctioning handguns create a hazard for officers on duty.
Marshal Thomas Howard is requesting the city spend $14,000 to purchase 40 new weapons to help replace the force's 12-year-old pistols that - despite what many city residents may believe - have seen a lot of action: each shooting about 4,000 rounds during training sessions over the years.
"The last thing an officer needs to be thinking about is whether his weapon is going to work properly," Howard said. "We are asking people to go out there and put their lives on the line, and it only makes sense for us to give them the proper equipment to keep them safe."
The request is part of Mayor John Moak's supplemental budget, which calls for $703,315 in spending. Most of that - $466,995 - is to fund Whittier Regional Vocational Technical High School's budget, which the City Council had previously voted to deny but the city is legally obligated to pay.
"You can't put them out there in a position of police officer and have them not know whether their gun is going to work," the mayor said.
Moak said the request from the marshal is a reasonable one.
"He isn't out there asking for SWAT vehicles or anything along those lines," the mayor said. "If he feels the guns have reached a level of ineffectiveness, well it's something I have to do." The guns were first issued to officers 12 years ago.
Since then, officers have used the guns for training at least twice a year. State law requires an annual weapons qualification for officers, but the Massachusetts Criminal Justice Training Council recommends training at least twice a year.
On top of that, Howard said, the guns, just like all other metal objects on the seacoast, are susceptible to the highly corrosive salty air in the region.
Howard said the last time he went to the range, there were "a number of incidences where we had to stop the exercises because of jams" in the gun. He said the main problem is the bullets are not feeding up through the magazine into the gun's chamber.
He said the range instructors reported many problems throughout this year and last year. Howard said the exact number of malfunctions is not available.

"We put a substantial amount of rounds through them each year," the marshal said.
It is unknown which guns the department would purchase, Howard said, because it will use the state's bidding process.
The police department needs 40 guns, which are issued to full-time and reserve officers. There are some that are kept as backups in case an officer's gun breaks and needs service, Howard said.
Howard said he does not know the last time a gun was used in the line of duty.


Posted by: kojack1

12 years is a long time, you would think they would have been replaced several years ago, somewhere along the 6-8 year mark.


Posted by: JW12

I hope they get them new ones and not wait untill an "incident" happens!


Posted by: justanotherparatrooper

Im VERY surprised to hear this. While I dont carry my Ruger Ive put well over 15000 rounds through it (factory and reloaded) with no issues.It isnt the cadillac of pistols but they are reliable.Im sure Ruger would correct any problems if brought to their attention. They are a very pro le company. Age has little affect on firearms in my experience, poor weapons care/maint however can destroy a firearm


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by kojack1
12 years is a long time, you would think they would have been replaced several years ago, somewhere along the 6-8 year mark.
Ours are replaced every 10 years, but I have to think that bad maintenance or crappy reload ammo is at play here. Firing 4,000 rounds over 12 years is a little over 300 rounds per year, which is hardly a lot.

I would say that Ruger autos are junk, since that's been my experience with them, but obviously these weapons worked when they got them, so something's happened in the meantime.


Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:
Ours are replaced every 10 years, but I have to think that bad maintenance or crappy reload ammo is at play here. Firing 4,000 rounds over 12 years is a little over 300 rounds per year, which is hardly a lot.
My department has the same policy, better to err on the side of caution. 12 years is an awful long time...tritium inserts for night sights burn out after about 10 years.

Quote:
I would say that Ruger autos are junk, since that's been my experience with them, but obviously these weapons worked when they got them, so something's happened in the meantime.
I agree with this as well; I've owned several Ruger revolvers and rifles, and they were all rugged weapons, but I don't think much of their autos.


Posted by: BB-59

Two things:

One if they want to go to another pistol, this is the time to do it. As of this time S&W with there M&P will beat just about anybody as far as prices and service.

Second, I am really suprised Ruger didn't offer to either rebuild the guns or swing a deal to keep this department using their product.

Whatever the case it looks like the chief and the mayor are on the same page, OFFICER SAFETY FIRST AND FORMOST!

Good for them!


Posted by: BPD142

One word.........GLOCK.


Posted by: BB-59

I agree GLOCK is about the best all around gun.

The problem is the bidding process involved.


Posted by: SGT_GRUNT_USMC

Better yet, let the officer buy the duty weapon they want,then have the department reimburse them.Everybody is different as far as their body style and firearms preferences.That's what my department does.Officer's get a $750.00 duty gun reimbursement when they buy one of the approved duty weapons which must be .45 .40 or 9mm in caliber and must be manufactured by Glock,Sig Sauer,S&W,Colt,Ruger,Kimber,Para Ordnance,H&K,and a few others.I carry a Glock 21 in .45 and I have a Streamlight TLR-1 Tac Light mounted on it,which comes in handy for felony vehicle takedowns and building searches since I work graveyard shift Patrol.


Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:
Officer's get a $750.00 duty gun reimbursement when they buy one of the approved duty weapons which must be .45 .40 or 9mm in caliber and must be manufactured by Glock,Sig Sauer,S&W,Colt,Ruger,Kimber,Para Ordnance,H&K,and a few others.
Your department is an enlightened one. Most departments are more concerned with logistics, then what is best for individual officers. Different brands of pistols mean more armorer's schools, different holsters, magazines, ammo, etc. I don't agree with that attitude, its just the mentality of administrators who know nothing about weapons. I would rather have a small-statured officer score high with a compact 9mm, more suited to their size, then barely qualify with the department issued full-size.40 or .45. But the administrators have a "one size fits all" mentality...like the same would apply to pants or shirts.


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
I agree with this as well; I've owned several Ruger revolvers and rifles, and they were all rugged weapons, but I don't think much of their autos.
Agreed....my son's first rifle will be my 10/22 when he's old enough, several deer have fallen from my M77 in .30-06, and I remember shooting trap with a fine Ruger "Red Label" O/U 12-gauge.

However, the thing that sticks in my mind concering Ruger autos are the people in my academy class who had Rugers, and they jammed constantly. It wasn't a case of weak-wristing, as the instructors had the same problem, and they were using factory ammo.


Posted by: mpd61

Delta and Killjoy are corect and then some...

Ruger revolvers are practically indestructable (ugly, but diamond hard)
Ruger M77 rifle is the ultimate tribute to the Mauser M98 battle rifle.

Ruger autos SUCK!SUCK!SUCK! I'd rather buy my sister buy a used old 5906 Smith, than see her with a ruger P-series auto in her hand! Hell! I'd even put a Bryco 9mm in her stocking this Christmas!



Posted by: SOT

Big mistake letting the officer buy what he or she wants...get into a firefight or a partner gets wounded and your gun is messed up, it's gonna be a crappy learning curve in the heat of the fight or you'll end up with not compatible mags. I'm not buying that it's just purely logistics...standard weapons mean that all officers can and will be able to use another officers weapon in an emergency, it means that mags and ammo will swap in case of emergency, and most firearms fit most people...I've yet to see a person that needed a real custom gun because of stature.


Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:
I've yet to see a person that needed a real custom gun because of stature.
I'm not talking about building someone a Ed Brown $3000 1911 because they don't shoot well, I'm talking about getting a smaller statured person a smaller gun. We all don't have the same size hands...one the guys I work with with with big mitts doesn't like shooting the Browning Hi-Power because of hammer bite, but I can shoot it all day and night with no problems. If a person can barely qualify with the Sig 226 in .40 or .357 Sig, but can clean up with a Sig 228 in 9mm, is he or she better served with a firearm they can barely control vs. one they shoot really accurately. Departments often don't have the luxury to let officers shoot all they want, and as long as someone passes, they probably only get their once-or-twice-a-year qual. And someone who is marginal, is likely to stay marginal because their gun is uncomfortable to shoot.

Quote:
Big mistake letting the officer buy what he or she wants...get into a firefight or a partner gets wounded and your gun is messed up, it's gonna be a crappy learning curve in the heat of the fight or you'll end up with not compatible mags
Statistically, most gunfights are very brief, six or less rounds in a matter of seconds. I would be interested in the actual statistics for officers grabbing another officer's magazines or pistols to utilize in a gunfight. I suspect the number is extremely small...many large departments have no trouble authorizing several makes, models and calibers of sidearms for their officers (LAPD, in addition to the LVMPD comes to mind). If operatability were a large concern, a department could authorize different calibers of the same type of pistol, like Glock 17's, 21's, and 22's for officers of a particular department. The operating systems for Glocks are identical, just the caliber is different. Or perhaps a Sig 220 and Sig 245, same caliber and operating system, just a smaller pistol.

Probably one of the more interesting developments is the use of interchangable backstraps on several newer models of pistols, most notably from Smith & Wesson, Beretta, and H&K. This allows the same type of pistol to have different diameter grips, a pretty clever idea that could allow departments to keep the same kind of pistol, but "customize" each gun for the operator; a good compromise for both administrators and trainers.


Posted by: mpd61

I get such a warm spot in my heart when SOT and Killjoy make articulate and critical arguements for two viewpoints.

Seriously, from a fireams instructor perspective, I would lean toward uniformity for streamlining training and armorers issues. The larger departments might prefer this. If I were a Chief, I would have Smith, Glock, Sig etc come to me and give me several models to evaluate. I would then have a committee talk with the troops and get their input. I would ask for the top two (2) choices and then have the entire department go hands-on and shoot both in tactical drills, and low light scenarios. Oh and I would hope that .45 acp would be the primary choice. If they (committee & trooops) tried to pick Glock or Ruger, I would make them carry .357 revolvers instead (LOL-JK) Since I am not, nor ever will be a chief, the point is moot!



Posted by: SOT

You bring up a good point but at the end of the day I look at not qualifying with the tools at hand as sort of the same as not being able to lift a body or get over the wall. I mean it may be harsh to say, but if the choice was uniformity for tactical, economical, training reasons, and safety reasons over making sure 1% more peope could be cops, I'm for the former. Basically If you don't fit you can quit.

Now I might buy the same gun different caliber argument as the training and learning curve would be about the same, but I think standardization is part of what makes a police force a police force and not just a collection of people who enforce the law. We talk about certain groups of people and applicants getting an easier ride, isn't this sort of the same thing? Can't shoot the 40 S&W...here's the 9mm...we don't want you not to feel part of the team.

I agree the ammo thing was a bit of a straw man, and maybe the different guns being used by different officers may never be an issue, but when I watch some DEA agent with his "glock 40" shoot himself in the leg.Or I see a police officer almost shoot her partner and the perp being handcuffed at a felony stop BY MISTAKE, using guns they have be trained on, it does not give me warm and fuzzies. Just think what would happen if they had to use someone else's gun they had never seen or qualified with.

Lastly, I don't think departments should bend to the weakest link. These are the specs of the job, these are the requirements, if you can't do what is required, then this is not the job for you. Harsh but I think large portions of this world would be a lot better off it we took that position.

I do think that you pretty much found the answer for what would seem, on the outside, as a marketing "gimmick". With the new plastic guns, and back straps, life has gotten a lot better for everyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
I'm not talking about building someone a Ed Brown $3000 1911 because they don't shoot well, I'm talking about getting a smaller statured person a smaller gun. We all don't have the same size hands...one the guys I work with with with big mitts doesn't like shooting the Browning Hi-Power because of hammer bite, but I can shoot it all day and night with no problems. If a person can barely qualify with the Sig 226 in .40 or .357 Sig, but can clean up with a Sig 228 in 9mm, is he or she better served with a firearm they can barely control vs. one they shoot really accurately. Departments often don't have the luxury to let officers shoot all they want, and as long as someone passes, they probably only get their once-or-twice-a-year qual. And someone who is marginal, is likely to stay marginal because their gun is uncomfortable to shoot.


Statistically, most gunfights are very brief, six or less rounds in a matter of seconds. I would be interested in the actual statistics for officers grabbing another officer's magazines or pistols to utilize in a gunfight. I suspect the number is extremely small...many large departments have no trouble authorizing several makes, models and calibers of sidearms for their officers (LAPD, in addition to the LVMPD comes to mind). If operatability were a large concern, a department could authorize different calibers of the same type of pistol, like Glock 17's, 21's, and 22's for officers of a particular department. The operating systems for Glocks are identical, just the caliber is different. Or perhaps a Sig 220 and Sig 245, same caliber and operating system, just a smaller pistol.

Probably one of the more interesting developments is the use of interchangable backstraps on several newer models of pistols, most notably from Smith & Wesson, Beretta, and H&K. This allows the same type of pistol to have different diameter grips, a pretty clever idea that could allow departments to keep the same kind of pistol, but "customize" each gun for the operator; a good compromise for both administrators and trainers.





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