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LEOSA apply to deputy sheriffs in MA?

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Posted by: bigjohn

just curious if anyone knows if the law enforcement officer safety act applies to deputy sheriffs in MA - in other words, can they carry concealed weapons? Here is an excerpt from the law itself:

In order to be covered as a "qualified law enforcement officer," a person must meet each and every one of the following criteria: He or she must be (1) "an employee of a governmental agency"; (2) "is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law"; (3) has "statutory powers of arrest"; (4) "is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm"; (5) "is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency"; (6) "meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm"; and (7) "is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm." In addition, the privilege conferred by the law applies only when the individual "is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance."

thanks!

JOHN


Posted by: firefighter39

is that a federal or state law?


Posted by: Mikey682

Chief Ron Glidden from Lee PD could probably answer that question. He was my firearms law instructor in the part-time academy and knew the answer to even the most obscure questions.


Posted by: PBC FL Cop

It would be safe to say a deputy sheriff fits that criteria.


Posted by: Otto

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBC FL Cop
It would be safe to say a deputy sheriff fits that criteria.
As long as you don't say it to some people around here.


Posted by: SinePari

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn
(4) "is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm"
If you're not carrying at work, you're not covered by this law.


Posted by: MPD703

I do some teaching and I have done some research on this. If your agency authorizes you to carry a firearm, and you meet the other criteria, you are covered. For example some Federal Bureau of Prisons employees are covered under FLEOSA. Congress is supposed to consider some changes to tighten this up but I wouldnt hold my breath.


Posted by: PearlOnyx

Sine,

There are many Deputy Sheriff's who work inside that are authorized to carry, that do not necessarily actually carry a firearm. I'm not sure if that would hold up true. I believe as long as you are authorized by the department, regardless of wheather you actually carry as part of your job duties, you would be good to go. There are plenty of people that are deputized and qualify every year, but work inside the fence.


Posted by: bigjohn

Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter39
is that a federal or state law?
that there is a federal law. look it up on wikipedia for some information too. I ask because when I lived in LA i knew a bunch of LAPD who carried weapons over state lines under the auspices of this law.

I was wondering if it applied to deputy sherrifs here in MA. While I know they don't carry home weapons that their agency distributes, they do carry them when on transport, certain duties, etc. etc. So I'd say that they're authorized to carry 'em.

Basically, to clarify, does that mean they can buy a personal firearm and carry them across state lines? Since this is a federal law, would it therefore usurp all state laws to the contrary in MA?

Trying to do some reaseach on this. Any help would be appreciated. would another forum be a better place?

thanks again

JOHN


Posted by: MSP75

If they are trained by their agency to a high standard set by a policy, then I am fine with it. The more TRAINED carriers, the better.


Posted by: MPD703

If you are looking for the law itself you can find at in title 18 of the US Code section 926B and 926C.

This is still a mess and this law only exempt people from state license requirements. If there are other state laws about carrying they still apply. NJ prohibits hollow points and there isnt an exception that I know of for off duty cops carrying under 926.

So Mass laws about storage and carrying while under the influence all still apply. The only pass out of state cops get is on the LTC A.


Posted by: sparky

From what I know of the law, it applies to off duty law enforcement personnel and some retired as well. It requires that you have an i.d. from your department that says you are qualified by that department to carry a firearm. It does not stipulate that you must be required to carry a weapon as part of your duties. It is very vague and meant to be so I think.


Posted by: Otto

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn
... While I know they don't carry home weapons that their agency distributes, they do carry them when on transport, certain duties, etc. etc. So I'd say that they're authorized to carry 'em.
Many correction officers and deputy sheriffs are issued department firearms that they are authorized to carry off-duty.


Posted by: HELPMe

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinePari
If you're not carrying at work, you're not covered by this law.
Exactly, you cannot carry on your "badge" if your not authorized to carry to begin with. If your a deputy sheriff i would think that you would meet the above criteria. Also a footnote to this is that if your an out of state cop you cannot carry on your badge legally in this state. You must try to obtain an LTC from the town your visiting etc. The reasoning for this is that in this state we do not have uniform firearm qualification standards so there fore an out of state officer cannot qualify for the state since we do not have a state standard it up to the individual department. However, i am sure a phone call to the chief wouldnt hurt.


Posted by: MPD703

Actually out of state cops can carry on their badge under 218. The qualification standard is their agencies qualification standard. The requirement to show you have passed a state qualification standard only applies to retired cops who are otherwise qualified under the law.


Posted by: PBC FL Cop

Quote:
Originally Posted by HELPMe
Also a footnote to this is that if your an out of state cop you cannot carry on your badge legally in this state.
You need to re-check your facts, this bill allows active law enforcement officers to carry on their badge, which their credentials, anywhere in the US regardless of the individual state laws. That's the purpose of 218.


Posted by: csauce777

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBC FL Cop
You need to re-check your facts, this bill allows active law enforcement officers to carry on their badge, which their credentials, anywhere in the US regardless of the individual state laws. That's the purpose of 218.
Exactly, I think people are missing this. The point of the law was to make it legal for off duty officers traveling through states other than their own, to carry their firearms in the event that they are forced into a situation where they would need to deploy it. Hence, "Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act." The thought is, the more cops with guns, the less bad guys hurting cops. The standards, i.e. qualification, authorization, etc., outlined in the law are for the officers home state, not for the one you may travel to.

With that said, my best friend is a cop in Maryland. He has told me that Maryland and Virginia arent too fond of the law, and dont think they have to allow out of state officers to carry in MD, and VA. (my friend thinks all cops should be carrying) Anyone have any insight on this?


Posted by: PBC FL Cop

Quote:
Originally Posted by csauce777
With that said, my best friend is a cop in Maryland. He has told me that Maryland and Virginia arent too fond of the law, and dont think they have to allow out of state officers to carry in MD, and VA.
Thankfully it's not up to them nor does it matter whether or not they are fond of the law or even disagree with it. This is why it's a federal law, so individual states can't pass laws prohibiting LEO's from carrying a firearm in their state.


Posted by: dcs2244

I will, and always have, carried where I damned well pleased. MA, NY, CT, ME, NH, RI and VT: put me in gaol for defending a trooper/deputy/patrolman.

Further, should the opportunity thrust itself upon me, I will carry in NYC and Washington DC...Period (sorry, an absolute statement, but so I will conduct myself).

The life I save may be my own. Or another cop. 'Nuff said.

</IMG>


Posted by: Killjoy

As long as the duputies met those qualifications set by HR 218, I wouldn't see a reason why they couldn't carry out-of-state. Pretty much if you're an active-duty police officer, or a retired police officer you would be covered by this. I must point out if you wish to take advantage of this you must carry your police-issued ID on you, a badge alone will not cut it. States could try to challenge on specific points of law, but I believe they would be in a losing proposition...wouldn't federal law trump state law?


Posted by: phuzz01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
States could try to challenge on specific points of law, but I believe they would be in a losing proposition...wouldn't federal law trump state law?
It would. However, one thing that everyone must realize is that LEOSA only exempts LEO's from state laws prohibiting general concealed carry. It does not exempt them from specific firearms restrictions set forth in state law.

For example, bans on high capacity magazines, hollowpoints, assault weapons, etc. would all still apply and you could be jammed up for it. And, restrictions about where someone can carry (bars, courthouses, airports, state buildings, etc.) are also applicable and are not affected by LEOSA.


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by phuzz01
For example, bans on high capacity magazines, hollowpoints, assault weapons, etc. would all still apply and you could be jammed up for it.
Every state I know that restricts high-cap magazines and expanding ammunition also exempts law enforcement, so I don't think any attempt to jam an out-of-state cop for that would go anywhere.

As far as assault weapons, only hadguns are covered under 218.


Posted by: csauce777

Quote:
Originally Posted by phuzz01
For example, bans on high capacity magazines, hollowpoints, assault weapons, etc. would all still apply and you could be jammed up for it. And, restrictions about where someone can carry (bars, courthouses, airports, state buildings, etc.) are also applicable and are not affected by LEOSA.
Youd have to be a real dick to jam up a cop from out of state who is carrying his department issued gun and hi-cap mags with department issued/authorized ammo.


Posted by: phuzz01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta784
Every state I know that restricts high-cap magazines and expanding ammunition also exempts law enforcement, so I don't think any attempt to jam an out-of-state cop for that would go anywhere.

As far as assault weapons, only hadguns are covered under 218.
The People's Republik of New Jersey, for example, bans hollowpoint ammunition for everyone except LEO's in the performance of their duties. So off-duty, you could technically get pinched for it. I would assume that there are some other gun unfriendly states that have similar restrictions.

To be clear, I am not saying that if you get stopped, you are likely to get pinched. I would hope that most LEO's would use proper decision-making skills to do the right thing. However, there are a few places around the country where the Chief has proudly boasted that he does not believe in guns or the LEOSA, and where I would not want to get caught with any prohibited items. Similarly, if something bad were to happen and you had to defend yourself, there are definitely some wingnut prosecutors out there that want to make headlines at any cost. Just something to think about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by csauce777
Youd have to be a real dick to jam up a cop from out of state who is carrying his department issued gun and hi-cap mags with department issued/authorized ammo.
I completely agree. Unfortunately, there are a few "real dicks" out there.


Posted by: BB-59

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn
just curious if anyone knows if the law enforcement officer safety act applies to deputy sheriffs in MA - in other words, can they carry concealed weapons? Here is an excerpt from the law itself:

In order to be covered as a "qualified law enforcement officer," a person must meet each and every one of the following criteria: He or she must be (1) "an employee of a governmental agency"; (2) "is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law"; (3) has "statutory powers of arrest"; (4) "is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm"; (5) "is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency"; (6) "meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm"; and (7) "is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm." In addition, the privilege conferred by the law applies only when the individual "is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance."

thanks!

JOHN
Correct me if I am wrong, (and I freely admit I have been in the past), if the Deputy Sheriff has the above powers, has been to at least an intermitent academy, what is the question?

I know a good many people on this sight loath anything connected to the term Deputy, but if they meet the criteria what would be the reason to say they are not covered that would stand up in a class action suit?

I do know correction officers that are not involved in duties that require them to carry a firearm as an official part of there duties are not covered by this law. (Correction Officers may carry on there badge, star, whatever, for security details and transportation, but without powers of arrest do not meet the definition.)

This to me is like the law in MA concerning Energy Weapons (TASER). Only sheriffs working inside a correctional facility as a part of a Spec Ops team can employ a TASER. It seems kinda stupid to me that we say it is all right for a Deputy to carry sidearms, batons, OC, handcuffs, rifles, shotguns, etc., but not a TASER.

I have said it before and I still say until the legislature actually defines what a Sheriff's powers actually are this nonsense will not end until something bad happens. Like them or dislike them it is time for the powers to be to get off the fence and resolve this issue.


Posted by: bigjohn

well, i guess my question would be: if there is a federal law allowing "law enforcement officers" to carry concealed weapons in any state in the nation, do deputy sheriff's have to even apply for a concealed weapons permit in MA, if a federal law trumps this?

i know a few deputy sheriffs who do NOT have concealed weapons permits. does this law exempt them from even applying for them? or would it allow them to be processed automatically?

i guess that's the crux of my question.

JOHN


Posted by: MPDReserve

I didn't notice in the law, but does it only allow carrying out of state a department issued firearm or are you allowed to carry personal firearms as well?


Posted by: BB-59

A good source of info on this is Chief Glidden.


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn
well, i guess my question would be: if there is a federal law allowing "law enforcement officers" to carry concealed weapons in any state in the nation, do deputy sheriff's have to even apply for a concealed weapons permit in MA, if a federal law trumps this?
They didn't need to apply before the new federal law, as long as they carry weapons issued to them or authorized by the sheriff;

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/147-8a.htm

This is the same as a police officer "carrying on the badge".


Posted by: PearlOnyx

BigJohn and Delta,

It depends on the department as well. I know of at least one Sheriff's department that does not allow it's officers to carry under the badge. Despite state law, they still have to obtain a class A to qualify and carry.


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by PearlOnyx
It depends on the department as well. I know of at least one Sheriff's department that does not allow it's officers to carry under the badge. Despite state law, they still have to obtain a class A to qualify and carry.
My department is the same, we have to have a Class A LTC. It makes things much easier for the chief to make our lives miserable.


Posted by: dcs2244

We do too, Delta, per policy/procedure...


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcs2244
We do too, Delta, per policy/procedure...
Our rules & regs are silent on the issue, but the chief issued a special order last year that we have to get the LTC. This left a lot of people scrambling who never had one, or let them expire, because the only gun they possess is their issued service pistol.




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