Originally Posted by BB-59

I am going to add my imput here with the out front understanding that a.) I was not there and b.) that my answer reflects the way I instruct LE to deal with a suicide by cop incident.

1. There has been no mandates (to the best of my knowledge) from the courts in how an officer responds to a lethal force encounter. The MPTC uses the Grahm v. Conner as their suggested guideline in officer use of force.

If these officers are judged by there actions then there actions must be judged by what another LE OFFICER with the same relative experience and training would or could be expected to do. Also department policy and procedures must also be added to the equation as to how the officers responded and acted.

Perception by the public means reality. Most of the public (and believe or not LE) get most of the information about police from movies that are made for enjoyment and selling movie tickets. LE, from the top of the chain to the beat cop must start doing a better job in explaining that what Bruce Willis and Mel Gibson do in the movies IS NOT REALITY!

Citizen police academies are an excellent source to bond with the public and if they are done properly a fantastic way to hands on demonstrate, say the Tuller Drill. This can be done with simunitions some safety equipment and magic marker. Demonstrate this not only to civilians, but the DA, and the press, and they can see why shooting "Hollywood Style" in the leg, arm, and chest dose not work in the real world where split second decisions, stress, and reality actually come into play.

We have addressed this issue in the past at inservice and new instructor and instructor resorts, and the usual reaction is "what is the difference, I will deal with it like any lethal force situation".

This is where training and department policy and procedure has to be up to date and have officers ready to respond to this type of situation and the department ready to respond to the not only the DA, but the family and public in general.

When LE confronts a suspect shooting at a schoolyard with an AR-15 the public understand that lethal force is an option. But they know from TV and the movies that if it is a "little old man" that they should be able to use a fancy martial art move and disarm him. Or how about a kid who points a gun at police or innocent civilians and opens fires or points the gun and at police or innocents do we train our officers not to shoot in case it is not a real gun?

We use airsoft guns that resemble GLOCKs they look, feel, and actually function the same as a real gun. There is no known way under a stressful, rapidly evolving situation that an officer can tell the two apart. If a kid points that gun at police pulls the trigger the officer will return fire. Even though there is no "BANG" the sight of what looks like a gun the slide moving back will compel an officer to protect themselves and the public and respond.

Remember that it has been proven that visual, auditory, and fine motor skills diminish under stress.

Originally Posted by 187

Quincy PD, stand by for tasers. I bet you'll have them within a year.

Originally Posted by Delta784

Guess again;

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...uns/?page=full

"We are not going to carry them or use them at the Quincy Police Department while I am the chief," said Chief Robert Crowley. "I think they're too dangerous."

Originally Posted by BrickCop

I know there was a FL college professor who's anti- cop mentality did a 180 after he accepted a challenge to put himself through an academy and work the street for a period of time.

Originally Posted by Delta784

George Kirkham;

http://www.krimedr.com/

The book he wrote about his experiences, Signal Zero, would be required reading for all college CJ professors if they weren't already "The Masters of Reality" (tm) and "All That And A Bag of Chips" of the LE world.

Originally Posted by BrickCop

The media will always have an unrelenting obssession with use of force/pursuit incidents. It's sad that the editorial boards/columnists have no qualms about making uninformed/uneducated judgements about these issues despite the fact that they have zero training or experience in LE.

I know there was a FL college professor who's anti- cop mentality did a 180 after he accepted a challenge to put himself through an academy and work the street for a period of time. I'm curious what would happen if the MPTC offered every major MA media outlet an opportunity to send one of their reporters to a full time police academy.

Originally Posted by dcs2244

There, Delta, fixed it for you (free of charge). Just axe Jim Fox.

Originally Posted by SouthSideCobras

Police use Taser on man after chase

GateHouse News Service
Sat Jul 14, 2007, 12:24 AM EDT

Fall River - A man, who police were told was armed with a gun, was subdued with a Taser Thursday night after he refused to surrender, they said.

It subsequently was learned that the suspect, Omid K. White, 19, of 165 Sunset Hill, was carrying a beer bottle that he discarded during a foot chase by police.

White was arrested and charged with trespassing, resisting arrest/interfering with a police officer and drinking an alcoholic beverage on a public way.

Sgt. Paul Bernier said Officer Michael Pessoa responded about 10:30 p.m. to a 911 call from a woman who said a man was standing in the Sunset Hill playground, “holding a gun and threatening to fight with people.”

Pessoa and other officers “got within 30 feet of the man, who fled, holding an object in his hand,” Bernier said, reading from a police report.

After a foot pursuit, police found the man “hiding behind a fence behind a house on Penn Street, crouched down in a catcher’s position,” Bernier said.

“He was ordered to come out, but he refused,” he said.

Police, thinking he had a weapon in his hand, used the Taser on White, said Bernier.

“He gave up and was subdued. No gun was found,” he said.

Bernier said only a “single deployment” of the Taser was necessary to take the man into custody.

Bernier said the suspect told police that he was holding a beer bottle and that “he threw it while running from police.”

A Heineken beer bottle was recovered on the path of the chase, Bernier said.
White also told police he was at Sunset Hill to buy drugs, Bernier said.
Previously, White had been issued a “no-trespass” order by the Housing Authority to keep away from Sunset Hill, Bernier said.

White was taken to St. Anne’s Hospital after the incident.

E-mail John Moss at jmoss@heraldnews.com.

Originally Posted by BrickCop

I'm glad it worked out for Fall River PD but many departments don't carry tasers. I don't know if you can necessarily compare this with the Quincy PD incident.

Originally Posted by BB-59

I only hope that the officers are dealing with this situation knowing that they have the backing and assurance that they did there job to the best of there ability and followed the first lesson of LE, "at the end of your shift go home alive".
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Originally Posted by Delta784

It seems like the Ledger is feeling the heat for that piece of crap editorial;

Originally Posted by dcs2244

There are still a lot of "buts" in their editorial: "...which may have been counter to police training..." and "...legitimate questions brushed aside...".

For those slow on the up-take, the lesson here is "Do Not Attack The Police with a Dangerous Instrument/Deadly Weapon". Immediate, unauthorized and catastrophic CPU shutdown/dll corruption may occur. No reboot, no reinstall of the OS to follow.

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Originally Posted by dcs2244

There are still a lot of "buts" in their editorial: "...which may have been counter to police training..." and "...legitimate questions brushed aside...".

Originally Posted by 94c

not only that, but you'll end up in the recycle bin.