| Originally Posted by jessekb I just took the 40 hour class a few weeks ago and was issued a s&w M&P 15 rifle. |
</IMG> | Originally Posted by SOT what is that? |
| Originally Posted by Sniper I heard the MSP was going with S&W's in the VERY near future........ |
| The first thing that comes to mind is the ability to breech doors. |
| Originally Posted by girlcop21 my department (State University) will be converting to S&W AR-15 from the Remington shotgun in the coming weeks. I believe the shotgun will still be available if needed, however the AR-15 will be the primary and the one that we will be issued will be mounted in the shift commander's vehicle. As far as training, I know the shift commanders will undergo a 1 day training and I am not sure what the officers will be required... I would imagine they would also get at least familiarization training. On a personal note, not being a big gun person (I know what I use)... the AR-15 is a much smoother, easier and exact weapon to use vs. the shotgun. From what I have been told, as long as you can shoot, you can use the AR-15 and there's no missing your intended target with this type of weapon. I'm sure the military guys will weigh in on this one... |
| Originally Posted by dfc2502 Whats wrong with carrying both? That would be my choice. |
| Originally Posted by mpd61 AR platform= versatility, range, accuracy, balance Shotgun= Heavy, lead spreading, unwieldy, marriage of sewer-pipe and pistol. (Love to shoot trap and turkey with mine though) |
| Originally Posted by 2-Delta That reminds me of the Keltec magazine fed shotgun. |
| Originally Posted by Q5-TPR REALLY? Interesting, where you hear that? Halifax PD has both rifles and shotguns in their cruisers. Qual once a year on standard MPTC qual course. Bushmaster M-4 (semi) and Remington 870 |
| Originally Posted by Tango Does anyone have one or have an opinion either way on the "Sub 2000"? |
| Im a little out of the loop now but I think that Killjoy would back me on this...thats a rumor being spread by SERT team guys more than anything else..when MSP was considering SERT to LA for Hurrican Katrina they were going to get an M-4 type AR...but when that fell through the talk had fallen through with that....MY understanding after talking to people who would know...these rifles will not EXCLUSIVELY go to specialty units...they are PATROL RIFLES for PATROL guys....if some guys get them its not because SERT is getting them overall first...besides SERT duties don't really require a rifle....they're deployed in large groups for missing persons, crowd control, etc... where 2 handed weapons arent really practical....so anything you hear about that is probably just rumors.....Killjoy correct me if Im fr off the mark... |
| Originally Posted by Tango Does anyone have one or have an opinion either way on the "Sub 2000"? |
) | Originally Posted by Wolfman I want a folder on mine! |
| The weapon is proven and reliable. It is inexpensive. The ammunition does not have the range of the 0.223 (important in an urban setting, where most of these encounters are likely to occur). I think the basic idea of the patrol rifle is to contain a situation, not to assault a position. The patrol rifle, in my estimation, would allow street cops to establish picket lines and interlocking fields of fire to contain a situation pending the arrival of the "Neat Guys" (STOP, SWAT, et cetera). It would give road guys the ability to lay down accurate and heavy fire to keep the badguys heads down. 0.30 calibre carbine semi-jacketed soft points (last I checked, Massachusetts police agencies were not signatories to the Geneva Conventions...and eff them and the Useless Nitwits, anyway.) would prove effective while limiting (I think) collateral damage. The weapons could be remanufactured to meet police specs: composite stocks, re-barreled to adjust rifle twist-per-inch, et cetera. The weapons are numerous, inexpensive and readily available. As are the magazines. Just a thought. (Somebody dispatch an ambulance to SOT's place... ) |
| Originally Posted by dcs2244 Well, here goes: at the risk of being regarded as a luddite, I will make the following suggestion regarding a patrol rifle. The M1 Carbine. (stop laughing, SOT!). The weapon is proven and reliable. It is inexpensive. The ammunition does not have the range of the 0.223 (important in an urban setting, where most of these encounters are likely to occur). I think the basic idea of the patrol rifle is to contain a situation, not to assault a position. The patrol rifle, in my estimation, would allow street cops to establish picket lines and interlocking fields of fire to contain a situation pending the arrival of the "Neat Guys" (STOP, SWAT, et cetera). It would give road guys the ability to lay down accurate and heavy fire to keep the badguys heads down. 0.30 calibre carbine semi-jacketed soft points (last I checked, Massachusetts police agencies were not signatories to the Geneva Conventions...and eff them and the Useless Nitwits, anyway.) would prove effective while limiting (I think) collateral damage. The weapons could be remanufactured to meet police specs: composite stocks, re-barreled to adjust rifle twist-per-inch, et cetera. The weapons are numerous, inexpensive and readily available. As are the magazines. Just a thought. (Somebody dispatch an ambulance to SOT's place... ) |
| Originally Posted by dsm290 The M-1 carbine is great for Junior CMP or JROTC. I highly recommend it! |
| Originally Posted by Delta784 In my opinion, they're kinda pointless. The whole purpose of a patrol rifle should be to have something capable of penetrating soft body armor, as well as light cover. Having a long gun that fires the same round as your handgun doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. |
| Originally Posted by girlcop21 my department (State University) will be converting to S&W AR-15 from the Remington shotgun in the coming weeks. I believe the shotgun will still be available if needed, however the AR-15 will be the primary and the one that we will be issued will be mounted in the shift commander's vehicle. |
| Originally Posted by SOT The M1 Carbine would make for a perfect patrol rifle. It's the right caliber, the right energy...it's what HK and the like have been trying to create with their PDWs. If you restocked the M1 and updated the receiver a bit...it would KICK ASS! |
| Originally Posted by Wolfman Off topic, but does it stand for "M4 User" or "Mauser"? |
| Originally Posted by BB-59 About 4 years ago we did a firearms instructor class where do to lack of patrol rifles we, (myself & my partner) brought out our M1 carbines and gave them to two of the soon to be instructors. Guess what they fell in love with them! Of course we had some SWAT people in the class that looked at them with loathing. These rifle are simple to operate, little, (no) recoil, and are great for your smaller officers. Unfortunately, like the Mini-14 they do not look high tech so most "experts" dismiss them out of hand. I'll tell you this, they, (M1 carbines & Mini-14s) are a hell of allot easier to clear a malfunction with that an AR-15. |
| Originally Posted by BB-59 About 4 years ago we did a firearms instructor class where do to lack of patrol rifles we, (myself & my partner) brought out our M1 carbines and gave them to two of the soon to be instructors. Guess what they fell in love with them! Of course we had some SWAT people in the class that looked at them with loathing. These rifle are simple to operate, little, (no) recoil, and are great for your smaller officers. Unfortunately, like the Mini-14 they do not look high tech so most "experts" dismiss them out of hand. I'll tell you this, they, (M1 carbines & Mini-14s) are a hell of allot easier to clear a malfunction with that an AR-15. But as my 11 year old is quick to point out I am "analog" technology in a digital world. Hey, after the microwave, what else does the American male need to know? |
| They looked at them with loathing because they know the M1 isn't designed for Urban response or patrol related distances. The .223 or M4 platform is best suited for what cops need in the cqb environment (less than 150m). the 7.62 system is a extremely effective open air round if distance or vehicle disable is a concern, which is why it makes a great military tool, but as cops we can't operate like that. we work in a fishbowl and need a round that will stay where we put it and still effectively stops a bad guy. It's not an accident that most police departments carry a .223 round vs a 7.62 or other high powered rifle round. You were at a Patrol rifle instructor class with a weapon that isn't a partol rifle, thats why they looked at you funny. Do some research, it's all out there if you want to know the truth.---dolt |
| Originally Posted by youareadolt They looked at them with loathing because they know the M1 isn't designed for Urban response or patrol related distances. The .223 or M4 platform is best suited for what cops need in the cqb environment (less than 150m). the 7.62 system is a extremely effective open air round if distance or vehicle disable is a concern, which is why it makes a great military tool, but as cops we can't operate like that. we work in a fishbowl and need a round that will stay where we put it and still effectively stops a bad guy. It's not an accident that most police departments carry a .223 round vs a 7.62 or other high powered rifle round. You were at a Patrol rifle instructor class with a weapon that isn't a partol rifle, thats why they looked at you funny. Do some research, it's all out there if you want to know the truth.---dolt </IMG> |
| I didn't mean to ignite an M1 Carbine war: I still believe that rifle and that round is as close to "perfect" as one can get for a GENERAL ISSUE patrol rifle. With a twenty round mag, two or three cops can keep the bad guys pinned down until the "neat guys" with their M4/M16/M14 arrive to solve the problem. The "patrol rifle" is not a problem solver...it keeps the bad guys in one place pending the arrival of the specialists, who will then adjust the matter. If you want to "adjust the matter", join the neat guys and get the fancy training and firearms. If you want to just be a cop, get a patrol rifle and secure the scene until the specialists arrive. Street cops have no need for .223: too much travel and too much training. M1 carbine: less collateral damage. |
| Originally Posted by Killjoy . In the confines of gunfight time is a commodity we cannot afford to squander...the longer it takes us to respond, the more people can be hurt or killed. |
| Originally Posted by Killjoy Not to beat a dead horse into dogfood, but I respectfully disagree. The "neat guys" usually take 45 minutes to and hour to arrive and I think this is too much time to wait. If bad guys are suited up in body armor, and armed with rifles, they will completely outclass the police trying to contain them. The LAPD was unable to contain their bad guys with 9mm pistols and shotguns because they couldn't penetrate the body armor of the bad guys, nor get close enough to hit an unarmored portion. In the meantime 10 good guys went down trying to contain these maniacs. M1 carbines, while excellent rifles, cannot penetrate soft body armor. If the LAPD had them during the Bank of America shootout, they would not have changed the situation in LA, yet if 1 LAPD officer had a AR-15 or other .223 rifle, he could have put those clowns down in about 2 seconds. In the confines of gunfight time is a commodity we cannot afford to squander...the longer it takes us to respond, the more people can be hurt or killed. Giving the troops on the street the ability to handle these situations is of paramount importance to public safety. The "neat guys" while ideal for hostage/barricade subjects and other special situations are not magicians and cannot be everywhere at once. |
| Originally Posted by Killjoy Not to beat a dead horse into dogfood, but I respectfully disagree. The "neat guys" usually take 45 minutes to and hour to arrive and I think this is too much time to wait. If bad guys are suited up in body armor, and armed with rifles, they will completely outclass the police trying to contain them. The LAPD was unable to contain their bad guys with 9mm pistols and shotguns because they couldn't penetrate the body armor of the bad guys, nor get close enough to hit an unarmored portion. In the meantime 10 good guys went down trying to contain these maniacs. M1 carbines, while excellent rifles, cannot penetrate soft body armor. If the LAPD had them during the Bank of America shootout, they would not have changed the situation in LA, yet if 1 LAPD officer had a AR-15 or other .223 rifle, he could have put those clowns down in about 2 seconds. In the confines of gunfight time is a commodity we cannot afford to squander...the longer it takes us to respond, the more people can be hurt or killed. Giving the troops on the street the ability to handle these situations is of paramount importance to public safety. The "neat guys" while ideal for hostage/barricade subjects and other special situations are not magicians and cannot be everywhere at once. |
| Originally Posted by dcs2244 Guys, I didn't mean to ignite an M1 Carbine war: I still believe that rifle and that round is as close to "perfect" as one can get for a GENERAL ISSUE patrol rifle. With a twenty round mag, two or three cops can keep the bad guys pinned down until the "neat guys" with their M4/M16/M14 arrive to solve the problem. The "patrol rifle" is not a problem solver...it keeps the bad guys in one place pending the arrival of the specialists, who will then adjust the matter. If you want to "adjust the matter", join the neat guys and get the fancy training and firearms. If you want to just be a cop, get a patrol rifle and secure the scene until the specialists arrive. Street cops have no need for .223: too much travel and too much training. M1 carbine: less collateral damage. |
| 1. If anyone shot at a North Korean Commie and he didn't go down, it was because they missed him. Because frozen clothing sure won't slow down a .30 Carbine. |
| Originally Posted by pahapoika when Delta Operators, employing short-barreled M4 carbines firing the heavy 62 grain armor-piercing round, repeatedly shot Somalia Militamen with no apparent effect. and i always thought a heavier bullet would cure the .223 reported problem of insufficient knock down power |
| Just a thought, but the point may be moot: MSP has decided upon patrol rifles for trial...they are purchased and the evaluation begins. I'm not familiar with the rifle so I won't offer any comment... |
| Originally Posted by pahapoika can PD's acquire M1 Carbines free of charge ? |
| Originally Posted by Wolfman Stigma yes, failed to stop enemy soldiers, urban legend: It's an interesting read (the whole site is great), and for those too lazy to click on it the conclusions are as follows: Lessons learned: 1. If anyone shot at a North Korean Commie and he didn't go down, it was because they missed him. Because frozen clothing sure won't slow down a .30 Carbine. 2. The old warhorse, the .45 ACP Ball, isn't exactly "weak" in the penetration category either. 3. I don't know how this rumor got started, but it looks like it was completely false. 4. The .30 Carbine, as we have noted before, is highly underrated in many categories. 5. Shooting stuff is fun. |
| Originally Posted by dcs2244 I haven't heard of such a program...I think the majority of M1 Carbines are imports: my first rifle was from Korea and had been updated and re-parkerized (I gave it to my brother after I bought my next). My current M1 Carbine came from Israel...all original, except they stamped the serial number into the stock...other than that original Rockola stock finished with boiled linseed oil and original parkerizing...</IMG> |
| Originally Posted by pahapoika for some reason i had this vision of a military warehouse in the middle of nowhere full of old army rifles |
| Originally Posted by billb Lexington carries mini-14's in thier cruisers... |
| Originally Posted by BB-59 As crazy as this sounds about 5 years ago you could get carbines from Isreal (IMI) for about $200.00 for LE. But if my only source for the CMP program and Springfield Armory, and the prices cited in posts here are that much, I would go with the Mini-14 in .223. |
| I guess it could be worse, they could have said the G36 was a good idea as a platform. |
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