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Main Page Sovereign Man Defence Question
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: Sgt_110

Greetings all,

I was at a friend’ place the other day when this other guest of my friend starts to tell about how he has friends in the Palmer (Ma.) area that drive with NO VEHICLE OPERATORS LICENSE of any kind.

He went on to say how these guys were ‘constitutionalists’, ‘sovereign men’ and ‘free persons’ which made them not bound to US and/or Massachusetts traffic laws and regulations.

He also stated how the State Police and the Palmer Police could F.O.A.D. as far as he was concerned. This rim shot used to work at the Brimfield Flea Market and claims that three MSP Troopers out of the Sturbridge barracks broke out his front teeth by “grinding them against the hood of one of the troopers K9 units. Not only that, but that he’s going to sue the troopers and be set for life…that’s his background.

Now to my question:
I know in my heart of hearts that this guy is spreading bullship, and I want to be able to present some facts for the next time he gets ready to ramble on.

Has any one heard, one way or another, of a court case that was _supposed _ to have been tried in Palmer (Ma.) District Court, where the ADA was claimed to have dismissed the charges of operating a motor vehicle without a license on the basis of the defendant being a ‘sovereign man’.

Any and all comments are welcomed, and I look forward to reading them.

Work Safe.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Two interesting problems with this individual's story...

One: If he is not beholden to State or Federal laws since he is soveriegn, can't he be deported under the Patriot Act as an illegal alien in the US without a proper visa?

Second: If he does not believe in State or Federal law, how does he explain quickly seeking civil action in the very Courts he fails to recognize???

Posted by: VAP1773

http://www.militia-watchdog.org/leo.htm

Interesting reading on the subject.

Posted by: WBPD628

Anyone that has been in Palmer District Court or has lived in this area knows that this story is close to 100% accurate.

Posted by: Jeep

There was actually a discussion about this in a Con Law class I took in college: In order for this defense to work you pretty much have to exist outside of society & subsist only on a barter system and not use any government services, meaning that you cannot use U.S. currency to purchase anything or uses a town's trash pick-up, water or sewer services, or for that matter police, fire, or ambulance.

Since utility companies, car dealerships, or gas stations probably don't accept chickens in trade for goods & services, it's unlikely that someone could truly use this as a defense.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeep @ Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:05 am

There was actually a discussion about this in a Con Law class I took in college: In order for this defense to work you pretty much have to exist outside of society & subsist only on a barter system and not use any government services, meaning that you cannot use U.S. currency to purchase anything or uses a town's trash pick-up, water or sewer services, or for that matter police, fire, or ambulance.

Since utility companies, car dealerships, or gas stations probably don't accept chickens in trade for goods & services, it's unlikely that someone could truly use this as a defense.

Then you cannot operate on state/city/federally maintained roads and therefore wouldn't need a driver's license anyway because you could only drive a freakin' car on your own property.

Someone fill me in on this story. Some Judge actually bought this defense?

Posted by: Jeep

I agree about using gov't maintained roads... unless you could eqate a sovereign man as a foreign national visiting the U.S.. Although I think that's unlikely. This defense was most likely valid at some point, but probably went out the window in the 20th century.

Posted by: stm4710

Quote:

What about the true "hardcore" Amish?

Posted by: Sgt.berniedo

What constitutional rights are they entitled to, since that is a government "contract" with the people?

Posted by: j809

I heard of these knuckleheads out in Western part of the state. They refused to pay the IRS federal income tax. They went to jail,lost their homes and land and got butt plugged in the federal pen while in the process. They became someone's sovereign bitches.

Posted by: MiamiVice

BPD remember when you stopped that nitwit on the divided part of 20, and I (HOA-541 retired) came ti back you up. He was a certified idiot preaching this freeman crap, and I think he was from one of the towns out there in the triange of stupidity.

To translate- some moron stopped by Brim PD fits the bill of the above guy. They are definately out there. I worked there for a year, and 30 mins from Hartford, Worcester, and Springfield, you would think you are in Idaho, with the way the locals act.

Ken

Posted by: stm4710

What about Indians that live on a reservation............how do you handle that?

Posted by: biged86

My experience with a "free-man"......
This guy buys a 196? Diamond Reo truck tractor for cheap $$ (truck last inspected in 1991). He slaps his NH Toyota Corolla plates on the truck and jumps on 495 to bring it home. In the process, the tire tread rips apart, snaps off the drain valve on the air tank, and the brakes lock up right in the middle of the road.
I show up on scene, observe the debris all over the road as well as the smoke and oil belching from the engine, and approach the truck. The operator comes running out from the woods saying "It's all set, I have a wrecker on the way". I then instruct him to retrieve the vehicle's registration and his driver's license. He states that he does not have a license and does not need one. He has contacted the Commonwealth as well as the State Police and expressed his desire to no longer have any dealings with the government.
After discovering the driver not only doesn't have a CDL but his regular license is suspended, I continued to examine the tuck and returned to my cruiser. The driver was given his 3 citations and notified he would be summonsed into court.
While waiting for court, I recieved 3 certified (US Mail) letters from this individual, asserting his "freeman" status quoting some old common-law statute (or something similar).
Anyways, when it came to court he decided to defend himself at a bench trial. After he gave the judge his speech on his "freeman" status, he was found guilty on 11 of the 12 offenses I charged him ( the open container for the old beer can in the cab was thrown out)

Posted by: HousingCop

Oh my!
I heard banjo music playing in the background while I read this thread. You think these wingnuts are bad here back east, try Montana & Idaho. Now those guys are extreme!

I am going to Pittsfield next week & if I see Ned Beatty running across the Mass Pike stark naked, I am pulling a U-turn in the median & heading back East, pronto!

You guys can keep East NY. Anything just outside (West) of Worcester is bear country to me & I try to stay away as much as possible.

Posted by: dcs2244

Yep, bear country (pronounced 'barr')...We had a guy in Three Rivers (palmer) kill a bear on his front porch last year...thing broke the front window trying to get in...the guy said he was defending his family. The police and game wardens agreed.

Naturally, that hasn't stopped the do-gooders from harrassing this guy for the last year, death threat letters, etc...

In any event, I look forward to running into one of these "seceded" non-citizens on my road

Posted by: RPD931

dcs2244,

Howdy neighbor, I's reckon' I'd be watchin' for these "seceded" Non-citizens on my roads too...

Posted by: Sgt_110

Quote:

Originally Posted by stm4710 @ Tue 07 Sep, 2004 21:42

What about Indians that live on a reservation............how do you handle that?

Their Tribal Police would take care of it...same as out in the ole' west.

Posted by: dcs2244

When it comes to indians, I defer to the British army....sorry, wrong indians...you meant feather, not dot.

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