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Main Page automotive black boxes.
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: pablo

I am looking for any information or cases regarding the seizure of information contained within an automobiles computer(black Box.) I recall hearing about a a case a while back in in-service but cant recall if it was a Ma case.

Posted by: 94c

I don't think there is any case law in Ma. regarding this yet. (I could be wrong). I haven't been to in-service.

I know the legislature has been working on some type of law to address these data recording devices.

I guess for now, it would be safer to get a subpoena until the courts or the legislature in Ma. address it.

Posted by: j809

You can ask DCS, he's good at this. I know of no law as of yet that requries to get a warrant to seize the black box when you do a crash reconstruction. I would probably get one anyway to be on the safe side if it's a fatal or serious bodily injury.

Posted by: HELPMe

I have also heard stories about this. Cars manufactured in the US 98 and newer were equipped with various models of the "black box". If your car has ONSTAR* then you have a black box. I would say that you need a warrant since it is not common property and is owned by the operator. There is no law that requires the operator to hand over their ECM to the police upon a crash investigation.

Posted by: dcs2244

Pull up a chair, kids, and let nasty Uncle DCS educate you!

Firstly, it's not a "black box". "Black Boxes" are data recorders installed in airplanes. The automotive version is known generically as a "Crash Data Recorder" (CDR), or specifically (GM) as the "Sensing and Diagnostic Module" (SDM).

Regardless of what an individual manufacturer may call them, if your vehicle has a supplementary restraint system (SRS), aka "air bags", then your vehicle has a data recorder. The purpose of the recorder is not to "tattle" on the operator for law enforcement purposes, but to provide data to automotive engineers to assist in future designs.

The purpose of the SDM is to deploy the air bags. It contains an accelerometer: if there is sufficient acceleration, the air bag deploys. If not, it doesn't. There are two types of events that are recorded: a "deploy" event and a "near deploy" event. If the air bags are deployed (deploy event), the data is permanently recorded by the SDM/CDR. In a near deploy event, the SDM was prepared to deploy, but decided that a deployment was not necessary. The data is recorded, but not permanently: the data can be over-written by a subsequent "deploy" event or "near-deploy" event of greater magnitude than that previously recorded.

Just what is recorded? Depending on the "generation" of SDM involved, the following things may be recorded: number of ignition cycles at deployment, ignition cycles at download, drivers seatbelt circuit status (buckled/unbuckled), brake lamp circuit status (open/closed), delta V (5 seconds before algorithm enable), speed (5 seconds before algorithm enable), percent of throttle, and engine RPM. It depends on the manufacturer: Ford is different from GM. GM now goes back to 1994...

Right now we can recover data from GM and Ford products (including Isuzu and Saab). GM provides the most information. This is the only software available to us at this time. That does not mean, however, that the dealer can't access the information...

There was an attempt in Massachusetts at a Xerox of the California law involving CDR's. I don't recall if it passed or not, nor do I really care, as I write a paper and secure a warrant for each download anyway, which is essentially what that law would require.

The future? NHTSA has called for papers to determine a federal standard for data collected. It is merely a matter of time before each manufacturer will have to cleave to the federal standards, and provide access to the data. It will not be long before we can access the data from any vehicle. I suspect the GM standards will obtain, as they are the ones who have done the most research and development in this field (see "catalytic converters").

I hope you folks found this informative: question away!

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Posted by: 94c

The only question I would have is, do you need a warrant or would a subpoena suffice?

Posted by: dcs2244

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94c

The only question I would have is, do you need a warrant or would a subpoena suffice?

Well, since you need a technician to download, and an analyst to interpret the data, I reckon you should call the guys with the expertise who will get a warrant. If I were the guy in possession of the data, I think you could subpoena it, however, it's useless unless you have someone to interpret it (ie: expert witness). Unless someone has a warrant to begin with, there would be no data to subpoena.

Warrant definitely. Call us...it's your invest...we are only support services (like crime scene)...we do the heavy lifting, you get the credit: we are here for you. Period. Free of charge. 24/7/365.25.

Posted by: Edmizer1

You need a warrant. My dept just processed a few serious crashes where these were needed and we got search warrants. There was a case that was in in-service where a dept didn't get a warrant and the info was suppressed. It was a Hampden County dept but I can't think of it now. We have one guy in my dept who handles these. I think he got a format from the state police on what the warrant needs to say.

Posted by: dcs2244

Edmizer, I believe it was Westfield...at the time it depended on the judge. I've always secured a warrant and have not had that problem.

A note to all you intrepid readers, I deleted helpme's post at his request: his information was pertinent to engine diagnosis and not the SRS system in particular.

Posted by: extraining guy

There is currently a case out of Salem Superior Court regarding CDR's . THe case was reconstructed by the MSP CARS unit and Rusty Haight, the formost authority on CDR in the nation was retained as an expert by the Essex County District Attorney's office. Bill Melkonian was the DA that prosecuted the case. THe case is currently in the MA appeals system as the defendent was found guilty of Motor vehicle homicide and OUI. THe MSP does get a search warrant for the data recorder and they do the download and the analysis as they have been to the classes on this.

Posted by: sgapd

After working a few crashes with the MSP Recon guys, I've seen them download the data on scene without a warrant. Unless things have changed, I believe the current practice is that its ok to download while the vehicle is still on scene, and hasn't been moved. Once it is towed away though, you would want to secure a warrant. Also on a side note, if you know you want the data later, you probably want a flat bed, because they say the machine is sensative to potholes, bumps on the back of the wrecker etc. and you could lose the data.

Again, this is just what I've observed and I could be completely wrong, it sounds like dcs2244 knows a hell of a lot about it so I would listen to him.

Posted by: Edmizer1

sgapd vbmenu_register("postmenu_178701", true); ,

You appear to be right, if the vehicle stays at the scene it would probably be searchable without a warrant because of the auto exception in a public place. After it is towed and "seized", a warrant appears to be needed. I could be wrong on this but we have applied for warrants to get the data after we have towed.

Posted by: phuzz01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmizer1

You appear to be right, if the vehicle stays at the scene it would probably be searchable without a warrant because of the auto exception in a public place.

The automobile exception under Carroll v. US is based on the mobile nature of vehicles, and the potential loss of evidence which creates "exigent circumstances." If you are investigating a fatal or SBI crash, that car is not just gonna take off with the black box. There really isn't any exigency there, so searching without a warrant in that case would be vulnerable to suppression. Just take the extra time to get a warrant.

Posted by: dcs2244

Sorry, I haven't checked this topic in a while. The only time I can think of that there would be any danger of the CDR "driving off" might be as a result of a car/pedestrian wreck. If the ped is deceased, then the bullet vehicle should be seized. The best and safest solution is just to get a warrant before downloading the box...just one guy's opinion.

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Posted by: BUBBA87

Always get a warrant, or have registered owner sign a consent form. The form must be specific to the retrieval of electronic data. When towing have the tow operator disconnect the battery, and make sure the ignition key remains out of the ignition at all times. The turning of they key, however slight can cause the box to reset.

Posted by: dcs2244

Quote:

Originally Posted by BUBBA87

and make sure the ignition key remains out of the ignition at all times. The turning of they key, however slight can cause the box to reset.

In a word, no. The ignition must be cycled a specific number of times to reset a "non-deploy" event. Nothing will reset or erase a "deploy event. However, Bubba is right about disconnecting the battery: the impact of the wrecker's stinger might over-write a non-deploy event. Always power the vehicle down.

Posted by: diamondcutter34

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcs2244

You are both right. Older model vehicles needed to be cycled 10-15 times before the data cache was wiped. however with remote starters, chip imbedded keys and push button ignitions the rules are starting to change.

Always remove the keys, heavier key chains can cause the ignition key system to slip while being towed, this is rare. The bigger problem is the new electronic ignition keys(blue tooth keys) I will not get into the technical BS, however the data seems to point in some instances that slight movement in a chip imbedded key can send signal noise to the data module. The jury is still out, because not enough data has been gathered. But it suggest it cant hurt to take the keys out. Ah yes and when disconnecting the battery. Make sure both terminals are disconnected.

Posted by: dcs2244

Quote:

Originally Posted by diamondcutter34

But it suggest it cant hurt to take the keys out. Ah yes and when disconnecting the battery. Make sure both terminals are disconnected.

I always require this...no power, no write. Just make sure you can account for the number of ignition cycles between "deploy" and "download"...

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