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Main Page Going On The Defensive
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Posted by: rocksy1826

Really messed up situation on my shift last night makes me ask....

Any suggestions on types of personal protection devices or whatever that can be suggested that EMS can carry? Other than things that need to be licensed or registered.

Also, anyone know of good self-defense or model mugging classes in the greater Boston area?

Do you need a permit for pepper spray? I know you do for mace, but unsure about pepper spray.

It happens to all of us, someone loses their shit and you end up having to fight. Looking to have a leg up on the situations when they do arise. (and to compensate for being short and unarmed)

Posted by: Gil

For mace you must have an FID card, or a license to carry firearms.

If you have no interest in possessing a rifle, shotgun or handgun, you can request a restricted FID card allowing you to carry only mace or pepper spray, but not to possess a rifle, shotgun or handgun. The advantage of this restricted FID card is that you do not have to take an otherwise state mandated basic firearms safety course.

Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gil

For mace you must have an FID card, or a license to carry firearms.

If you have no interest in possessing a rifle, shotgun or handgun, you can request a restricted FID card allowing you to carry only mace or pepper spray, but not to possess a rifle, shotgun or handgun. The advantage of this restricted FID card is that you do not have to take an otherwise state mandated basic firearms safety course.

My employer would never go for us carrying any sort of gun. How do I go about getting a restricted FID card?

Posted by: Gil

Just go to your local pd and put in the application. Not to sure on the process or time involved tho... sorry.

What were you doing at Dudley Sq anyway? I would have replied but was serving warrants with ICE this morning...

Posted by: Inspector

Ummmm...Maybe a special easily accessible syringe of that "special stuff"

Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gil

Just go to your local pd and put in the application. Not to sure on the process or time involved tho... sorry.

What were you doing at Dudley Sq anyway? I would have replied but was serving warrants with ICE this morning...

routine bullshit transfer. it wasn't even our patient. i closed up my partner and the patient in the back, was walking around towards the drivers seat (like 5am) and this totally shitfaced/high guy sees me and shit happened.

Big mess. My partner is officially the man due to his actions

Posted by: US706

Of course the carrying of OC will depend on your employer policy also.

As far as a course that is directed towards self defense and not traditional martial arts or like we as law enforcement use (DT) Defensive Tatics which focus' on control and comliance you need something that is going to allow you to break contact quickly and get out of a situation.

you could look into Krav Maga they have a location right in boston. www.kravmaga.com

Posted by: CivilServiceNO1Fan

I used to work EMS in a rough city, and had some lovely clients a couple of times as well. The best advice I ever got was to figure out what could be used to protect you. Keeping in mind you won't be staying to fight this well meaning citizen, always remember what you have and what is around you. Back end of a portable works, and I know some who have thrown heavy med bags at the center body mass to slow down a shit head.

I am not saying these actions are ideal, or should be used at all. I am just saying that when your life is in question, procedure sometimes goes out the window. And remember, even if you can carry OC, it will not work all the time, and it will usually be those most under the influence of certain drugs who will be completely immune.

You should get a PR-24- that would be your best bet

Posted by: mopar6972

Lifepak-12 if you're a medic... Suitable AED for basic's and intermediates. Aim and swing.

Most services are not going to let you "officially" carry any type of impact weapon, OC spray or the like. Your best bet might be courses which are designed provide a little knowledge to quickly separate yourself from a situation. MOAB ( management of aggressive behavior) is one, and there are many types out there. An additional consideration might be the use of a small concealable kubaton and training.. PM me if you want more info...
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Posted by: Inspector

Hey Rocks....How about some alcohol or like substance in a handy little spray bottle?

Posted by: Stevec

I am surprised that one of these options isn't automatic for EMS. I could imagine situations getting pretty ugly.

Posted by: EOD1

how bout a 16mg dart w/ 20mg of haldol & 6mg of adavan!

Posted by: Inspector

Yeah.,..Like I said..."special stuff"

Posted by: mopar6972

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspector

Yeah.,..Like I said..."special stuff"

Bleach works, too

Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by mopar6972

Lifepak-12 if you're a medic... Suitable AED for basic's and intermediates. Aim and swing.

problem is i was getting into the drivers seat, i didn't have any equipment on me at that point. trying to hit and screaming bloody murder worked decently, but i don't always have a 6ft 5 jacked guy for a partner. It took him a few to realize I was screaming "get away from me, help" before he got out so I'd like to find some kind of self defense class that really teaches you how to react.

In the back I'm on guard and ready for shit, this was totally out of nowhere and I wasn't ready and i was caught in a awkward spot that made it hard to get a hit in. I don't really want to get into what happened last night and details.

so... self defense class. anyone know one? the one you're talking about... do you know where it's offered?

Posted by: CivilServiceNO1Fan

Rocksy-

Sounds like it was a real tough spot, sorry you got caught up. Wish I had an answer for a self defense class, but just one more idea- impact weapons may be a no-no, but maybe find a spot for a good d-cell mag when you are in the bad areas? Just an idea, sorry I couldn't be more helpful!

Posted by: Tango

From someone that has worked EMS in a busy city for many years prior to L.E, having OC/Mace/chemical of your choice is a bad idea in the back of an ambulance. A hand full of times I have had a well intentioned P.O spray a "patient" who is going nuts....next thing you know everyone has to bail out due to the spray. One time we had to call for another truck to transport since we both couldnt see to drive the damn thing. I put $$ on the fact that it would be against any policy, especially a private ambulance company's policy to allow it. Just because you go out and get a restriced FID to carry it, if you are using it in the type of capacity you are speaking of, you need to be trained in it as well. It's not rocket science, but there is some things you need to consider.

As previously mentioned, use what you have. I will be the first to admit, the general public/EMS managers dont realize the shitheads that EMS personnel have to put up with. Use what you need to to get out of the situation. A o2 tank across the head maybe a bit tough to answer to

, but you know what I mean.

Im sure you can find someone you work with or a friend/local PO who would be more than happy to come by your station for an afternoon and teach you some basic DT moves/holds.

Good Luck

Posted by: OCKS

From time to time some depts. run a RAD course which is a self defence course for women. There is also a (not sure of spelling) Ku baton which is a little five/six inch small baton that you could attach to your keys. It is not a strike weapon but more of a jab type weapon
Be safe.

Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tango

As previously mentioned, use what you have. I will be the first to admit, the general public/EMS managers dont realize the shitheads that EMS personnel have to put up with. Use what you need to to get out of the situation. A o2 tank across the head maybe a bit tough to answer to

, but you know what I mean.

Good Luck

i've actually used the o2 tank to the head technique before. It works incredibly well.

thanks for the advice guys.

Posted by: 94c

Hey, I've got an idea!

How about calling the Police?

Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94c

Hey, I've got an idea!

How about calling the Police?

i did that. but guess what? It's really difficult to call someone when you're fighting someone, smartass.

thank you for your incredibly inciteful and helpful response to my questions about where to take courses and what kinds of methods people use for protection.

Posted by: Delta784

As mentioned, letting loose pepper spray in the back of an ambulance isn't the best option, ask some of your x-ray co-workers.

I've done it several times, but then again I didn't have to ride in the back on the way to the hospital.

Posted by: 4ransom

I don't understand why they won't let you guys carry... I mean there is no way I would be caught dead working Boston EMS or any other dangerous area and being on the scenes of murders literally seconds after they happen and not having any personal protection. If you are qualified enough to have sombody's life in your hands, you should be able to carry a firearm to defend yourself.

Posted by: LandShark9C1

Batman,

Another vote for Krav or similar self defense course...

Although, I don't think OC spray is a horrible idea so long as you get the FID card and understand how/when to use it. At least that way you can incapacitate an attacker from a distance.

either self defense skills or OC both have their own pros and cons...

with open hand/kubaton/ect you are going to get up close and personal....

OC you can use from about 4-6 ft away... however it is also something that might get turned against you/accidentally expose yourself while spraying someone else.

While your service might have some kind of liability about it, it is not totally unheard of for EMTs to carry firearms(remember that instructor jane brought in? the really cynical guy, he was packing while working as a paramedic) so why not OC?

either way
let me me know what you decide, I'm curious.

Posted by: Sniper

I dont think EMS personnel should carry firearms.......... Just my .02

Posted by: 94c

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper

I dont think EMS personnel should carry firearms.......... Just my .02

I really doubt that the EMS system is under seige.
Next thing you know, they'll want chapter 90 powers.

Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94c

I really doubt that the EMS system is under seige.
Next thing you know, they'll want chapter 90 powers.

a. not claiming to be under seige.

b. ever work ems? we get our share of violent whack jobs without PD assistance on scene. When the call is private (called in directly to our dispatch centers)? We are dispatched to the emergency without PD or FD. We are told to decide upon arrival if we need them and then request what resources we need. Requesting en route when hearing what type of call it is before seeing the scene is frowned upon.

got anything useful to add? I'm not trying to get PD powers. I'm wanting advice on watching my own ass while at work. Yes, I work an emergency service. No, I don't believe myself to be law enforcement of any sort. I provide an entirely different service. I get the impression you're getting huffy and defensive about EMS wanting to protect themselves. Isn't that a basic divine right to protect yourself?

and no way would i carry a gun at work. That has bad idea all over it. After the reminder of pepper spray in the back of the ambulance? I'm backing away from that. Even if I don't spray it, I can just see some asshole getting it off my belt while i'm treating them/assessing them.

Self defense class and watch my ass better. I think that's the best bet. I've gotten a few good suggestions on where to go through PM's. All set.

Posted by: OCKS

The EMS people I have worked calls with have always shown nothing but respect for Police officers. I have met a couple of yahoos over the years(forgetting to stop for lights,going too fast) but most have been great. I haven't met any of them have been cop wanabee's.

Posted by: Capt. Kirk

Hey Rocks,

The RAD self defense class is a great idea. I have taken it. Not sure where you live but their are a few Boston Police that give the class throughout the city from time to time. I think your best bet would be to contact your community service officer for your town or district if in Boston they would probably know when and where classes are. BTW i just googled "Rad classes" and a bunch of PD's popped up. Hope that helps. I see your on the Northshore maybe checkout some colleges to see if they offer it.Good luck and stay safe.

Posted by: 94c

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocksy1826

Nothing personal against you. I just find it quite comical that anyone would think that you should be armed withe either a gun or pepper spray.

You have a duty to care, so if someone is in cardiac arrest in the back of your rig and you pepper spray someone outside, doesn't that person now become your responsibility as well?

What if he is a real jerk? Do you stand there with pepper spray in one hand and saline water in the other? Taking turns spraying and squirting?

My best advice to you is to get the hell out of there.

If you're trapped, then just kick him in the balls.

Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by 94c

real jerks you just mouth off at because it feels good.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. Kirk

Hey Rocks,

The RAD self defense class is a great idea.

We run the RAD class, and I know the people who teach it, so let me know if you're interested.

Posted by: Nachtwächter

http://dt4ems.net/

I doubt there will be any classes in the New England anytime soon.

Posted by: Officer Dunngeon

You could always call me, Rocksy. I am usually up at 5am and I've been holding in this anger for about 20 years or so that I would love to unleash on some random druggie in Dudley Square at the butt crack of dawn. If you ever want me to come down there with a baseball bat to crack some skulls, you just let me know.

Just kidding... I'm never up at 5am!

Posted by: andy0921

Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy0921

and the next day i would be completely out of a job.

I think I'm going to handle this like I would a misbehaving pet. spray bottle full of water to squirt misbehaving people like i would a cat scratching furniture.

Maybe not effective? but will entertain the living hell out of me with section 12's

Posted by: dcs2244

Rocksy, a lot of this advice has been good, but what you need is a "multitasker". I suggest you purchase a Stinger type flashlight. They don't take up much room on your belt. They are great as a flashlight (rechargeable) and to play the xylophone on some guys intercostals. No special training, and there's nothing quite like the "happy flashlight" for personal satisfaction.

The self defence classes do have a drawback: you need to practice the routines to stay proficient. In the real world, that doesn't happen (unless you belong to Fight Club). If you do take a course, take the advice of Danny Duffy (MSP RIP): choose a move you like and make it yours, learn it, love it, live it. Once you use your special move, follow it up with an application of the "happy flashlight".

Then jump back in the rig and head for your destination as your attacker does the "fish" on the sidewalk. You can always make an "anonymous" call to the police reporting the crazy person...by the time the cops arrive, he should be sufficiently recovered to give them a load of crap...at which point the "matter" will be adjusted and you'll be called back to the area for your next transport.

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Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcs2244

In the real world, that doesn't happen (unless you belong to Fight Club).

who wants to start a fight club!?

(not so much)

thank you for the advice. I'm taking the chunks that won't get me fired into account. Very much appreciated.

Posted by: Delta784

When all else fails, an oxygen bottle makes a nifty improvised impact weapon.

Posted by: rocksy1826

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

When all else fails, an oxygen bottle makes a nifty improvised impact weapon.

used that one in the past. it makes a suprisingly satisfying *THUNK* on impact

Posted by: snowman

I would consider a LifePack 12

Posted by: justanotherparatrooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy0921

How much stock do you own in the company Andy and does your girlfriend mind you sleeping with a taser under your pillow?

Posted by: andy0921

If I start to snore she tasers me.

Posted by: stm4710

I work for a private ambulance company and also a volunteer on a municipal department that runs EMS in addition to my LE jobs.

I carry a can of OC foam in my EMS pants pocket in addition to my knife. I choose foam for the contamination/clean up factor.

Posted by: JoninNH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer Dunngeon

You could always call me, Rocksy. I am usually up at 5am and I've been holding in this anger for about 20 years or so that I would love to unleash on some random druggie in Dudley Square at the butt crack of dawn. If you ever want me to come down there with a baseball bat to crack some skulls, you just let me know.

You know, that would make an excellent video!

I second the suggestion of a stinger flashlight... aircraft aluminum to the noggon ususally works wonders.

Posted by: Motorcop

Try calling Bob Dyer at Lowell Police Training 978 937 3259. I know he has worked with some of the Hospitals and has a Defensive Tactics course set up.

Posted by: wgciv

Go with a K-Bar!!!

Posted by: AllSidesFirst

I've been working for Boston EMS for a few years now. Yeah, we run into some completely whacked out people, best thing I've found is to try to talk em down first but if that doesn't work and you're rolling with someone without PD, I usually just take 'em down and kneel on their diaphragm for a few min while we restrain.

Works well unless they're on PCP or delusional, in that case there's no patient that's worth getting injured or killed over... remember "scene safety" means you don't put yourself into danger. If it's clear to me that we're not going to be able to beat them, then I'll just back off until such time as we get more people to help (pretty short order in Boston when you need them).
You use any kind of weapon as an EMT, unfortunately, and you're asking for a lawsuit if you get caught. Have I occassionally utilized my Stinger for other than lighting purposes? Sure. Have I been exceptionally careful only to do what I needed to do to defend myself, my partner, and the public? Yep.

Some people want to carry OC, a sap (used to be the norm in my dept), or a gun. First off, that makes us combatants and fair game for anyone who decides they wanna take a shot at us... that "they're the medical" with some of the gangs would go out the window.

Second, anyone that wants to shoot or stab you, if you let them get close enough to you without realizing that something might be up, then it's gonna be too late anyway. And anyone who's gonna shoot or stab us isn't gonna be trying to injure... this from a guy who's had more than one piece and blade pulled on him.

Personally? I carry a blade and a flashlight. The blade I use to cut belts. The flashlight is used to light up things.

A final word: when you club some guy over the head and he ends up being a diabetic or a head injury, it's gonna be pretty damn hard to defend what you did.

Posted by: rocksy1826

once again:

this was not a patient. I'm good at defending myself with patients. They don't attack me when I've closed up the back and am getting into the drivers seat and the person comes out of nowhere practically with no warning.

I'm looking for info on self defense courses to protect myself against the random whackjobs that may attack a person. Patients are not my problem. Specifically, defense courses that teach you techiniques to get the upper hand when the person is on you in a way that makes normal methods (punch in the face, knee in the nuts, o2 tank to the face) not an option.

Posted by: justanotherparatrooper

Ok, heres my 2 cents. Always be aware of your surroundings. Your a medic so you always have pens, sissors, knife on you...theyre all potential weapons. you dont need to kill the guy or gal just hurt em bad enough to get away or put yourself into a more defensible position. If your attacked , your fighting for your life so anything goes. drive the afore mentioned articles into the testicles, eyes,throat... anywhere you can get to until you can get away.Fingers into the eyes and nostrils. stomp his instep...In other words be a wildcat.
After all that shit, be prepared to get fired and be arrested but atleast your alive.

Posted by: JoninNH

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherparatrooper

After all that shit, be prepared to get fired and be arrested but atleast your alive.

... and being alive is the MOST important thing.

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