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Need police opinions!!!

(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: Unregistered

Hi,

Just want some feedback from as many police officers possible in regard to a situation as this:

I am 20 year old male and currently live in a bad area in my city. I always see the police either on or very nearby the corner of my street making some sort of arrest/write up each day, and within the past year, things seem to be getting worse. I am saving up to move out of that area, but will not be able to for at least 2 more years. I have had possession of a pocket knife [a cheap Gerber from Walmart] for a few years, but recently began carrying it in my pocket more often when in my area.

Background aside, my question is the following:

If I were in a situation where I was being robbed/assaulted by either a single person or multiple people, are in what I feel is life threatening [i.e. being attacked by with any type of weapon], and used my pocket knife not for the intention of killing, but for the purpose of defending myself with an intention of disarming my attacker to escape, and then call the police and inform them with as much detail as to what went on, and surrendered my weapon immediately upon their arrival, would I still receive a jail sentence from court for an action such as this? None of which I just described for the situation above happened, and I know that these situations do not occur everyday, I am just trying to imagine a worse case scenario based on my observation of how bad my area has become and would like police officer feedback. [Also, I have had a friend who was also recently robbed twice in the last three months, once by knife point, and the other by gun point.] Thank you for your help!

Just wanted to correct myself: As police officers viewing a situation like this based upon what I just said, how likely would you think I would be put in jail because of an action such as above?


Posted by: HousingCop

I believe you should get in touch with a former Cantabridgian and Harvard University student named Alexander Pring-Wilson. He may have some helpful insight to your unique question.


Posted by: Unregistered

Wasn't aware of that case. Question answered then. Thanks!


Posted by: epd111

I didn't bother looking up that case, since y'all have wierd laws up here, but the real question might be - are you trained to use a knife in a fight? Can you get it out of your pocket and open in a timely manner? Are you willing to get cut? Probably better to give up your wallet and get the hell out of Dodge if it ever happens.

Here's what happened in our town one night. Three gangbangers jumped a guy outside his house and were beating the crap of him - one had a knife. Well, the victim manages to get the knife away from him and slashes wildly, putting all three in the hospital. While we didn't give him an award, the three little jerks got two years for lynching.

Ed


Posted by: 4ransom

I don't think anybody here is going to tell you it's ok to stab someone, self defense or not.


Posted by: justanotherparatrooper

There is nothing fun about close quarters fighting with a knife. It isnt like the action movies.WE trained monthly for it in our bn and people got seriously injured with training knives You get cut, you hurt bad so get any ideas out of your head about "winning". keep on saving your money in a bank and move on out. no one here is gonna tell you to carry a knife.


Posted by: 1moreftrleo

I wouldn't suggest carrying it.
What's going to happen is you're going to cut some guy; end up in court where his background of thieving and assault won't be revealed to the jury; they're going to say that it was excessive force; and then you will serve time in prison.... and, of course, whoever the lucky bastard that tried to jump you is will sue you.
Also you have to consider that anyone who tries to defend him or her self with a knife usually taken some pretty painful defensive wounds.

My suggestion would be to either A: do what the person wants and try to remember every detail about them for the police. Or 2: spend the 50$ on the course and the 25$ on the lesser F.I.D. and 10$ on some mace. Someone jumps you; you spray them in the eyes and run like hell.


Posted by: CHROMECOLT357

unless you can move faster than 900 feet per second, if the other guy has a gun, give him your walled and leave the knife in your pocket.


Posted by: copcop

I just read about Alexander Pring-Wilson - googled it http://www.alexanderpringwilson.org/whathappened.html something doesn't seem right about that whole story - read the whole thing and then read this quote:

"Once the police told him they had "a body in the morgue," Alex apologized and admitted he had lied. As he later explained, he was frightened and confused, and was suffering from a concussion. Nothing made a lot of sense."

He admitted he lied??? I thought he was was disoriented. The trauma caused him to dissociate. As his attorney Rick Levinson said during trial, Alex was "dazed, hurt, confused and scared."

So, what was it? was he suffering from Dissociation? Or was he covering something up? Given the fact that he was sentenced and he admitted to lying - I would have to assume something else happened that night besides him just defending himself...

but....that's just me...cynical...anyone else???


Posted by: 209

Yeah dont carry a knife....I say trade in you knife and buy yourself a TANK- Nobodys going to mess with you then.



Best advice....wear running shoes.

And as stated above nobody wants to tell you to carry a knife. Mainly because nobody knows you and if they tell you to you might go out tomorrow and stab someone.

Honestly...
My personal view on this is that, on the job and off nobody has any right to try to hurt/kill me and I will do whatever I can to stop them. ( Using the "Use of Force Continuiuum" as outlined in my department policies and proceedures and adopted by the State MPTC. )


Posted by: Unregistered

Wow, didn't expect all the responses. To answer epd111, I know of a few folding knife defense courses being taught that I could take, but after reading some more responses, I'll have to side with the no carry. I do run frequently at the gym, so I guess I better focus on running faster and longer!


Posted by: HELPMe

Best suggestion is get mace. A knife can easily be taken out of your control and be used against you. Can you live with the fact that you may end someone elses life or leave them sh!tting in a bag for the rest of their life over the 25 bucks in your wallet?

I have a class A and i refuse to carry. I got it purely for employment purposes. Its too easy to make a mistake with a fire arm. Its also very easy to be disarmed if you are not trained properly and have that weapon used against you! I carry OC when i go into Boston or a high crime area. It is non lethal and it effects most people. Get one with red dye so that your attacker will be identifiable to police when you make a 911 call in addition to the description given.

The Mass self defence statute I believe is that you can only use force when your life is threatened or in emanate danger. Example a man with a gun saying that he is going to shoot you. At that point most judges would rule self defence. However, just as in LE use of force continuum you have to use just enough force to evade or escape. If you are on a street corner and a man says he is going to kick your ass and you stay and fight and kill him there is a good chance you will go to jail. Self defence is really only meant to be used in a case where you have no possiblilty of escaping. If you do not try to evade you run the risk of being charged with a&b or a&b dw or even murder.You cannot knock a person down who has threatened you and double tap them or stick them in the back as they run away. I belive there was a case on this about a harvard kid in cambridge who killed a kid in a bar and he cited self defence and was sentenced to prison for kicking him in the chest ribs etc when he was down.


Posted by: 209

Quote:
Originally Posted by HELPMe
Best suggestion is get mace. A knife can easily be taken out of your control and be used against you. Can you live with the fact that you may end someone elses life or leave them sh!tting in a bag for the rest of their life over the 25 bucks in your wallet?

However, just as in LE use of force continuum you have to use just enough force to evade or escape.
10-4 on most points HELPMe.


Posted by: midwatch

I have to agree with the mace idea...if you can blind your enemy and escape, that may be the best option. You never know if you pull a knife, he pulls a gun. Always be wary when you don't know what you're up against.


Posted by: 1moreftrleo

As i said before though, you can't just carry mace, you need to take the course and get the limited F.I.D.

As far as i know; in the state of Massachusetts you have a duty to retreat. even in your own home if someone busts through your front door with a shotgun and you shoot them right between the eyes you could spend time in prison and be sued civily. It's different for a civy than for a PO but essentially if you're not a PO you should only defend yourself if it's your last option. (I.E. you're cornered and cannot retreat.)

Also; consider pepperspray as opposed to mace; pepperspray is a non-chemical agent which - i would assume - is more easily defendable in court.

Either way, if you're seriously interested Smith and Wesson offers a course for 50$ then you go to your police dept and apply for the limited F.I.D. (unless you want to carry rifles and shotguns in which case it's 100$) it's 25$ (mandated by law) and lasts for 6 years.


Posted by: HELPMe

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1moreftrleo
As i said before though, you can't just carry mace, you need to take the course and get the limited F.I.D.

As far as i know; in the state of Massachusetts you have a duty to retreat. even in your own home if someone busts through your front door with a shotgun and you shoot them right between the eyes you could spend time in prison and be sued civily. It's different for a civy than for a PO but essentially if you're not a PO you should only defend yourself if it's your last option. (I.E. you're cornered and cannot retreat.)

Also; consider pepperspray as opposed to mace; pepperspray is a non-chemical agent which - i would assume - is more easily defendable in court.

Either way, if you're seriously interested Smith and Wesson offers a course for 50$ then you go to your police dept and apply for the limited F.I.D. (unless you want to carry rifles and shotguns in which case it's 100$) it's 25$ (mandated by law) and lasts for 6 years.
OC is also a chemical agent Oleoresin Capsicum (sp?) is little more then hot pepper juice in water but some makers "enhance" the potency of OC. Some departments do not require you to take a course in OC (if you are in LE then it is required) however, I know a few women who have gotten them without anything but minor instruction from the officer that issued the restricted permit. All you really need to know is to shake the container, stand 4-6 feet back spurt in face with quick taps as not to get more propellant then the reactive agent in the stream and lastly evade. The class is a joke. If you live in any other state then OC can be bought right over the counter without a permit.

Also, as far as a person busting in your front door and shooting them. You can take action depending on certain factors. You must prove that your life is in danger. Either through the suspect having a firearm and pointing at you and saying that he is going to end your life or the lives of your family. Exigent circumstance such as if you do not subdue the attacker before he fires the gun at your wife, kids. Alot of things come into play. The case you are thinking of is when a man in Boston had a b&e into his house and the owner took out his shot gun walked down the stairs found the subject and shot him in the back. The subject was unarmed and not in a threatening position. The homeowner did serve time i believe. He neglected to prove that his life was in immediate danger and that if he did not take action without the possibility of retreating he would have died.
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Posted by: TacOps

Honestly, if I were in that situation, I would use self-defense. Although the courts will not have any mercy.


Posted by: 1moreftrleo

Quote:
Originally Posted by HELPMe
OC is also a chemical agent Oleoresin Capsicum (sp?) is little more then hot pepper juice in water but some makers "enhance" the potency of OC. Some departments do not require you to take a course in OC (if you are in LE then it is required) however, I know a few women who have gotten them without anything but minor instruction from the officer that issued the restricted permit. All you really need to know is to shake the container, stand 4-6 feet back spurt in face with quick taps as not to get more propellant then the reactive agent in the stream and lastly evade. The class is a joke. If you live in any other state then OC can be bought right over the counter without a permit.

Also, as far as a person busting in your front door and shooting them. You can take action depending on certain factors. You must prove that your life is in danger. Either through the suspect having a firearm and pointing at you and saying that he is going to end your life or the lives of your family. Exigent circumstance such as if you do not subdue the attacker before he fires the gun at your wife, kids. Alot of things come into play. The case you are thinking of is when a man in Boston had a b&e into his house and the owner took out his shot gun walked down the stairs found the subject and shot him in the back. The subject was unarmed and not in a threatening position. The homeowner did serve time i believe. He neglected to prove that his life was in immediate danger and that if he did not take action without the possibility of retreating he would have died.
</IMG>
When it comes right down to it it's 12 people and the reasonable person standard; and being how this state favors the criminals rights over yours and mine: unless you have damn good reason to shoot someone you're going to pay for it, and sometimes even if you do have good reason you're still going to pay for it.


Posted by: Deuce

Bah! carve the mope up and carry on with your business...


Posted by: SOT

Use lasers. That right LASERS!


Posted by: TacOps

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOT_II
Use lasers. That right LASERS!
What a dumb a**

About the OC spray, you do not need to take any type of course (although I recommend it because it could save your life, and your case in court because of credibility), you need to pay $25 to your town, get fingerprinted and photographed. Then you will have an FID card restricted to pepper spray. And yes, DO NOT get Mace. It's a combination of OC and CS gas...you don't know how people will react to those chemicals.


Posted by: 1moreftrleo

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacOps
What a dumb a**

About the OC spray, you do not need to take any type of course (although I recommend it because it could save your life, and your case in court because of credibility), you need to pay $25 to your town, get fingerprinted and photographed. Then you will have an FID card restricted to pepper spray. And yes, DO NOT get Mace. It's a combination of OC and CS gas...you don't know how people will react to those chemicals.
Yeah, you're right, sorry about that; you're only required to take the safety course for the full F.I.D. card, not the limited class D one. Also, i hadn't realized this before but it's also a one time 25$ fee, renewals are free.




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