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Main Page Police apologize for botched part of standoff
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: Dane

Police apologize for botched part of standoff
By Leslie H. Dixon/ Daily News Staff
Friday, June 30, 2006 - Updated: 01:49 AM EST

MENDON -- Police Chief Ernest Horn apologized yesterday to a young Blackstone couple who police forced out of their car at gunpoint and handcuffed on the front yard of a house where an armed man held scores of police officers at bay for more than five hours earlier this month.
"We screwed up," Horn acknowledged after reviewing the details of the initial moments of a June 11 standoff that ended in the arrest of Stanley Bouchard of 52 Bellingham St.
Bouchard had barricaded himself in his house with a rifle in the midst of a domestic dispute with his girlfriend.
"We’re just looking for accountability," Kelly Boccia said earlier this week.
In a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, Boccia and her husband, Jason, got caught up in the standoff as they headed home from dinner at a nearby restaurant. Boccia claims it took a call from the local newspaper two weeks later and a request from herself for a copy of her statement to get any type of police acknowledgment of the incident.
"I assume complete responsibility," Horn said Wednesday.
In a statement issued to the Boccias yesterday, Horn said after a review of the situation, he determined the problem occurred because of "incompatible radio systems between some of the initial responding law enforcement agencies" and that "assumptions were made that led those officers to believe that the couple may have been involved in the unfolding (situation)."
Families from about 60 homes in the area were evacuated that Sunday night as police from at least seven towns and a SWAT team converged on the house, shutting down streets in all directions and ordering the evacuation of houses on Bellingham Street, Carby Drive and Theresa Drive.
"The operation went flawlessly but clearly now we know there were problems," said Horn, who issued a letter of apology to Kelly and Jason Boccia yesterday after speaking to Kelly Boccia for about 45 minutes Wednesday.
The couple was pulled into the drama as they headed home to Blackstone by way of Bellingham Street after a leisurely dinner at Lowell’s Restaurant on Rte. 140.
According to Boccia, as she and her husband approached the area of Bouchard’s home at 52 Bellingham St., they were stopped by a heavily armed Bellingham Police officer who blocked the road. Boccia said another cruiser immediately blocked them in from behind.
According to the Boccias, an unidentified officer yelled at the couple to "Get the hell out of here," and when they asked where they should go, they were directed down Bouchard’s driveway.
Earlier this week Horn explained that police were mistakenly focused on the house across the street because that’s the house from which a caller told them a gunshot was heard.
So as guns pointed to the wrong house, the Boccias were told the safe place to go was Bouchard’s driveway.
Kelly Boccia said she got out of her car to tell the homeowners why they were in their driveway. She went to the wide-open side door to the left of the house and could hear two people talking. When no one came to the door she said she went to the back screened-in porch where an older woman -- who was later identified as Bouchard’s mother -- came out. She told the woman that police had said to come down her driveway and asked the woman if she knew what was going on.
"She seemed very unaware," Boccia said of the woman’s reaction.
Although she could hear other people talking in the house -- which at that point was wide open but later Bouchard barricaded it -- Boccia said she did not sense anything was wrong.
By this time, Horn said police realized they were at the wrong house. As they redirected their focus to Bouchard’s house, police were being told that a black Audi with two people were in the driveway.
Boccia said she got back inside her car and overheard a police radio transmission about the couple. She said suddenly the car was surrounded by four or five officers who told the couple to put their hands in the air, get out of the car, walk backward and go face down on the ground where they were handcuffed.
"I was really scared," said Boccia, who said she recalls one officer had his gun trained directly at her. She stressed police did not mistreat them. "They weren’t rough at all."
At the same time, police put Bouchard’s girlfriend, Pamela Boudah -- who police later identified as having shot the rifle in the house during the domestic incident -- on the ground in front of the couple’s car and handcuffed her.
Kelly said Bouchard’s mother came out of the house saying, "It’s all my fault."
The mother and the Boccias were put in a cruiser and driven up the street to a fire truck stationed outside the "danger zone."
Boccia said Bouchard’s mother, who apparently saw how shaken Boccia was, commented, "I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to get her so upset."
Boccia said she was very shaken. "I didn’t feel safe no matter where I was," she said.
Horn said the couple were held at the fire truck until information could be ironed out. Three hours later they were allowed to go to the police station to make a statement.
"Things were developing so fast that at the end of the day, a mistake was made," said Horn who acknowledged he was unaware of what had happened to the Boccias until this week, but stressed that under state law police had every right to detain and even handcuff the couple.
After Horn ordered a SWAT team to gas the home and take Bouchard into custody, Bouchard was charged with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.
Bouchard is expected to be back in court July 13.
Leslie H. Dixon may be reached at 508-634-7521 or by e-mail at ldixon@cnc.com.

=D>

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Chief Horn says the police officers screwed up yet he blames the incident on incompatible radio communications. Then he says the operation went flawlessly. He then says the police had every right to detain and handcuff these people. This has more flip flops the John Kerry's campagne.

Posted by: dcs2244

The operation "...went flawlessly...", yet they were focused on the wrong house, directed passersby into the fire zone and are now issuing apologies/explanations.

I guess "flawless" has been redefined. The war in Iraq is now flawless. The reporting of the NYT is now flawless. The security of POTUS JFK was flawless. Thank GOD, we can all feel good about ourselves now, regardless the results of our actions.

Welcome to what's left of our civilization.

Posted by: nirtallica

Way to go. The LECS are really something, aren't they? If I was the one they stormed on, I would demand the Mendon Chief resign and call for the Legislature to seriously consider disbandoning the LECS. Next time you want a raid done right, call in the BIG BOYS in who know what they are doing and who have been doing it for over 30 years. I would have more confidence in the DOC SRT than these LECS!

Posted by: Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirtallica

. Next time you want a raid done right, call in the BIG BOYS in who know what they are doing and who have been doing it for over 30 years.!

NEMLEC won't travel that far.

Posted by: Pacman

Oh yes call the STOP team. LMAO.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

Oh yes call the STOP team. LMAO.

Yes, LMAO. When it comes to SWAT...training, experience and competence are overrated anyway.

Posted by: rg1283

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirtallica

Way to go. The LECS are really something, aren't they? If I was the one they stormed on, I would demand the Mendon Chief resign and call for the Legislature to seriously consider disbandoning the LECS. Next time you want a raid done right, call in the BIG BOYS in who know what they are doing and who have been doing it for over 30 years. I would have more confidence in the DOC SRT than these LECS!

I am through supporting the LECs in any form not that I ever did. The town I live in has 2 Cruisers on (sometimes even 3 if we're lucky). First I see the CEMLEC Command Van, I'm like okay there all going in that van. Then I see the Unmarked cruiser from my town flying up route 16. I can bet $ that his shift wasn't covered... If its an "organized effort" example being a task force preplanned, that way we know officer XYZ is out and officer ZYX will be replacing them thats cool.

I have no problem with sharing resources, however why doesn't the PD's follow like the Fire Departments do for Mutual Aid? If Mendon is on Fire would Douglas send ALL their Fire Trucks and not have anyone cover Douglas's Fire Station with a Fire Truck incase there is a fire in Douglas. Similar to how the US Army is supposed to protect the US Border.

The big question is (to confirm) the MSP do the same thing have the gear in their car and go to the incident. As far as I know the MSP will call someone to cover that Trooper's area who is now en route to the incident.

Towns that have 2 officers on per shift, now have 1 Officer on because the other one is enroute to the incident. No coverage is called for the officer responding to the LEC call.

That Mendon Chief sounds like he is really with his men. If I was Chief I would have said my officers pulled up on a scene of reported gunfire and were investigating the incident. We apologize to that couple for this, however it is our job to protect the public with the resources (limited thank you Selectmen and Taxpayers at hand).

Gunshots don't work like E911.

Finally how about they give every department a M-16 style rifle to be kept in the cruiser and training? As mentioned in past LEC threads the Uniform Officers on patrol will be the first responders. Its kind of childish how some communities have a TV View of the State Police, like the State Police are going to come in and take over. Some of these towns act like Sheriff Will Teasle from Rambo First Blood. The young deputy says "You Sure you don't want to call the State Police?".

Posted by: Duff112

jeeze !!! would you cut this chief and the other LEO's on scene some slack. I'm glad no one
got hurt but come on all you Monday Morning Quarterbacks out there. Your all sounding
like reporters from the Globe. The scene was undoubtedly a chaotic one and what I'm reading thru the lines (AS ALL THE LEO'S SHOULD BE DOING) is the PO's on scene secured
everyone who needed to be secured, with no-one getting hurt. More importantly the PO's
went home to their families that night.=D>

Posted by: SOT

There's a huge difference between chaotic and dangerous. They hand no control of the situation....that's not an ops, that's a cluster fuck.

Posted by: dcs2244

Look, Duff112, I don't know to whom you were referring, but I didn't "Monday-morning-quarterback" the situation. I merely pointed out the dichotomy of the chief's statements: "flawless" versus "apologies" for admittedly making mistakes. A refreshing result of the incident is a chief actually admitting culpability...he has ended his career, but shown himself to be a man of honor.

We need more like him.

Fat chance.

Posted by: dfc2502

According to the news print they had evacuated families from about 60 homes. Now I'm no great tactician but if you are evacuating homes in the neighborhood why would you direct someone to the driveway across the street from the suspects location? Granted the only thing I know about the incident is from the press, but if it's even remotely correct, Mendon and the LECS have some serious training issues to contend with.

Posted by: youareadolt

boy oh boy, i usually just read this bs but i couldn't take any more of this. First off the chief did the right thing by apologizing, seems pretty stand up. So much has been said I hardly know where to start. I’d like to say--hey you second guessing idiots mind your business because we should be taking care of our own. Let the public do the motherf*^#ing and we'll protect each other. But i've been here far too long to think that'll ever happen.

As far as this incident goes--i preface this by saying i wasn't there but knowing what i know i realize that these things tend to get real hairy, especially after the fact when the media does there report---apparently none of you have ever given a statement to the press then read it later and said "what the F*#@, i never said that" or that’s way out of context. So i'll fill you in..THE MEDIA writes it however they want, it doesn’t matter what the Chief "actually" said, it’s how the twist it to some interesting.

The LEC issue is a joke, it always goes down this road. The involvement of Cemlec wouldn't have happened until much later in the incident. If you read the article and assume you can read, you’ll see that two uniforms made the initial confrontation. SWAT dealt with the barricade, not the initial call. I'll promise you this every LEC member thanks the troopers for there arrogance and attitude because it's all but cemented them into Massachusetts policing. Thanks for your continued support......

The evacuation is part of stabilizing the incident, should be done as soon as possible, once the location in contained.

These guys did the best they could under the circumstances, things can always be done better, especially after the fact, that’s what debriefs are for. I'm sure they worked out the kinks and things will probably go better next time. There are three decisions to be made at every incident, big or small, -the right one, -the wrong one and -none. They may have made some mistakes but in the end they made a decision which set into motion a chain of events that ultimately turned out ok.(maybe not flawless). I've seen plenty of you clowns who have something to say about what everyone else does and how "we" can do it better---blah, blah, blah...Truth is you're the "none" guy, always afraid to make a decision, you're the dangerous ones. Always have the answers after the event but hide behind the desk when it's going down, hoping someone else will deal with it. Well in this incident they did, they made an attempt to save lives and in the end they did; end of story.

You're a bunch of leaches feeding off of the mistakes of your so called brotherhood. You and your cynicism is what make the 99% of real cops out there look bad, not some BS article about the police botching an incident. What the F do these people know about what we really do anyway?

If you’re so smart call the Chief and offer you’re consulting services, or get the info on the incident and debrief it like a man, face to face, not on some public forum where you can hide. Nope, that won’t happen because you’re a coward, could do it any better but still feel the need to speak. I guess it make you feel important. You’re a joke

Hope all you scabs out there got the herald today, there's another juicy article in there for you to dissect.

youareadolt

Posted by: firefighter39

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfc2502

According to the news print they had evacuated families from about 60 homes. Now I'm no great tactician but if you are evacuating homes in the neighborhood why would you direct someone to the driveway across the street from the suspects location? Granted the only thing I know about the incident is from the press, but if it's even remotely correct, Mendon and the LECS have some serious training issues to contend with.

For what its worth, I just looked up the address on google earth and got a satalite immage, there are not even 60 people in that neighborhood, let alone 60 homes.

I am not on SWAT, but based on my prior military exeperience I would say that there were about 10 homes in the direct line of fire, then some heavy woods around there too.

Albeit old satalite immages, on the site the home "directly" across the street is about 100 feet down the road and off to the side.

So once again I wonder what really happened when we cut through the media garbage

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by youareadolt

I'll promise you this every LEC member thanks the troopers for there arrogance and attitude because it's all but cemented them into Massachusetts policing. Thanks for your continued support......

And their own incompetence, inferiority complex and lack of training will end it.

So Thank YOU!

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

And their own incompetence, inferiority complex and lack of training will end it.

So Thank YOU!

LOL Bbelichich you were just patiently waiting for something like this to happen LOL

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfc2502

According to the news print they had evacuated families from about 60 homes. Now I'm no great tactician but if you are evacuating homes in the neighborhood why would you direct someone to the driveway across the street from the suspects location? Granted the only thing I know about the incident is from the press, but if it's even remotely correct, Mendon and the LECS have some serious training issues to contend with.

Good Point!

Posted by: youareadolt

i'm glad you chimed in BBALLICK, your one of the guys i was speaking of.. I've followed your posts for some time now and you continually speak about issues that you know nothing about. Policing in general but especially related to LECs. I've viewed your bs for years and have yet to see you speak correctly about the lecs. Fortunately the only ones who believe your venom are your fellow desk jockeys and other malcontents looking for something to hate. Thanks again for your continued support.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by youareadolt

i'm glad you chimed in BBALLICK, your one of the guys i was speaking of.. I've followed your posts for some time now and you continually speak about issues that you know nothing about. Policing in general but especially related to LECs. I've viewed your bs for years and have yet to see you speak correctly about the lecs. Fortunately the only ones who believe your venom are your fellow desk jockeys and other malcontents looking for something to hate. Thanks again for your continued support.

I know plenty about policing and TONS about the LECs.

You are a two post wonder and have to resort to childish name calling.

The LECS will die as their funding is cut off. We both know it is true.

Posted by: MARINECOP

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

I know plenty about policing and TONS about the LECs.

The LECS will die as their funding is cut off. We both know it is true.

The LECS will never die, just multiply. Get use to it. Long live the LECS. =D>

Posted by: Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian O'Hare

What happened to my message?

I've seen it all now..

Posted by: rg1283

Solution to the Problem call in CMPSA. This will now link all the teams together. CMPSA can buy an old ice cream truck and use it as a SWAT Van.

Posted by: youareadolt

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

I know plenty about policing and TONS about the LECs.

You are a two post wonder and have to resort to childish name calling.

The LECS will die as their funding is cut off. We both know it is true.

You've been parading that bs for 2 years now and the money just keeps coming. Sorry bud, the game is up and locals have caught onto your smoke and mirrors organization. Boston don't want ya, Sheriffs hate ya, Worcester throws you out regularly, Nemlec owns north shore, Cemlec is moving in, Metro is solid, Cape & Islands are forming, South Mass is gathering. It's just a matter of time before everyone realizes who the "duplication" really is. Turn the grant money over to the towns and let them do there own bidding with it. If the SP really care about the well being of the communities thats what they will do. Be sure to save enough money to re-letter your cruisers MASS HIGHWAY PATROL.
I'll honk on my way to the next call out, be safe.....(behind your desk)

Posted by: SOT

Look if you have been here for two years, you have got to be a total pussy for regging a new name just to piss and moan about the MSP STOP/ LEC debate.
If you really are a cop, and god forbid on a SWAT team, get a fucking pair of balls and post as your normal regged name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youareadolt

Posted by: youareadolt

I'll bet SOT_II is on your ss card, right. please, you're a moron, go away, you bore me....i looked at your site, we all know you're a bad ass. does gil make every site in this place.

Posted by: SOT

Don't know but he does do good work. He's done two sites for us that I know of.

Posted by: sempergumby

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARINECOP

The LECS will never die, just multiply. Get use to it. Long live the LECS. =D>

Aint that the truth.

To all of you piss-ant second guessres that wright here, like you where there, or know what the fuck you are talking about. SHUT UP. you where not there. You talk about how fucked the media is and then you suck up to it. You second guess a bunch of officers that are doing the best they can at the beggining of a shitty deal.
You people suck

Posted by: spdawg0734

I am sorry some of you need to go check out a porn site, take a pill or just turn the computer off and watch tv this type of sniping is getting ridiculous and childish. My two cents.

Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by sempergumby

Aint that the truth.

To all of you piss-ant second guessres that wright here, like you where there, or know what the fuck you are talking about. SHUT UP. you where not there. You talk about how fucked the media is and then you suck up to it. You second guess a bunch of officers that are doing the best they can at the beggining of a shitty deal.
You people suck

If that's the best they can do, I'm damn glad I live a few counties away.

Posted by: FIVE-OH

Well all know what they say about arguing and talking shite over the internet, no matter whether you win or lose, YOURE STILL RETARDED...Just my

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by youareadolt

You've been parading that bs for 2 years now and the money just keeps coming. Sorry bud, the game is up and locals have caught onto your smoke and mirrors organization.

Well, POPO50, or whatever you go by now...If you TRULY knew what was going on with the funding, you would be frightened. The Feds have been apprised of the waste and are scrutinizing all the BS the LECs have been doing. No more $50,000 for sweatsuits, huh?

You're right, I HAVE been saying it for 2 years, and in those 2 years, funding has slowed down. Fed grants are down and the LECs are starting to go begging to the towns for more money. How long do you think Towns will pay money to have their Officers in another town? How long before the lawsuits start draining resources? Who will pay the judgements?

The bottom line is that putting on a Badge and a blue suit doesn't make you a Cop. You need training and experience. The LECs think that some half assed occasional training and a pair of pajamas makes them SWAT. These types of incidents will only become more frequent.

There will be a new Governor soon...Stand by.

Posted by: redpara

SOT II,
While I support the LEC's I feel compelled to agree with you on the mis-steps taken in this situation. It's an indication that the LEC'S need training and rehearsals. They also need and operations cell similar to the military's use of an S3. More over, once a decision is made to use their team, NO ONE ELSE STEPS IN TO OFFER "ADVICE".

If the towns want to have "special teams" they have to fight for the funding and use the time to train these officers properly. Nice concept but I don't see it happening.

Posted by: EJI

Let the towns take care of their own problems, The STOP team can keep training all they want, but nobody except west backards Mass towns will call them. Thats why the MSP bomb team works with the LECS. Ask your bomb team when they did their first explosive breach with Swat in Massachusetts. Hint it wasn't with you guys.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by EJI

Let the towns take care of their own problems, The STOP team can keep training all they want, but nobody except west backards Mass towns will call them. Thats why the MSP bomb team works with the LECS. Ask your bomb team when they did their first explosive breach with Swat in Massachusetts. Hint it wasn't with you guys.

Many Eastern and Central Mass towns & Cities use STOP. Why? They are clearly the BEST. Go ahead, deny it. Tell me that you truly feel that the LEC SWAT are more competent.

I don't think you have the balls because it would be a lie and anyone in the Tac Ops field would laugh their butts off at you for saying it.

This isn't a GAME. I know you WANT to throw on the jammies and do superman stuff, but you have to have the training and qualifications to do so.

As far as MSP Bomb Squad, they do as they are told. Do you really think they jumped at the chance to work with the LEC's?

Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by EJI

Exactly. Let the towns take care of their own problems. And with that in mind, I don't want the cops in my town taking care of another towns problems. That's not what I pay them for. I have the utmost confidence in my local PD, but if the shit hits the fan in my town and my local PD can't handle it, I want professionals called in who know what the fvck they're doing. Not some half-assed "better luck next time" dog and pony show.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dane

police from at least seven towns and a SWAT team converged on the house, shutting down streets in all directions and ordering the evacuation of houses on Bellingham Street, Carby Drive and Theresa Drive.

After Horn ordered a SWAT team to gas the home and take Bouchard into custody, Bouchard was charged with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.

Excellent job.

Posted by: EJI

Its tough to prove your the best when nobody calls you. Did I read in the papers Easton just joined a LEC. One more town that won't need you.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by EJI

Its tough to prove your the best when nobody calls you. Did I read in the papers Easton just joined a LEC. One more town that won't need you.

If I printed the STOP callouts, it would be many more than all the LEC's combined.

Keep spewing the LEC propaganda; it won't help when you're in Federal Court for a Lawsuit due to poor training.

Posted by: EJI

[quote=bbelichick]If I printed the STOP callouts, it would be many more than all the LEC's combined.

Keep spewing the LEC propaganda; it won't help when you're in Federal Court for a Lawsuit due to poor training.[ LEC propaganda! you been printing Spam propaganda. let us know when MSP shows up east of the Mass Pike for a callout.

Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

Keep spewing the LEC propaganda; it won't help when you're in Federal Court for a Lawsuit due to poor training.[ LEC propaganda! you been printing Spam propaganda. let us know when MSP shows up east of the Mass Pike for a callout.

East of the Mass Pike? The Mass Pike runs east to west, geographic genius.

Posted by: cr2649

Pike runs East to West. East of the Pike would probably be the Atlantic. I'd hate to have to follow you to a callout.[quote=EJI]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

If I printed the STOP callouts, it would be many more than all the LEC's combined.

Keep spewing the LEC propaganda; it won't help when you're in Federal Court for a Lawsuit due to poor training.[ LEC propaganda! you been printing Spam propaganda. let us know when MSP shows up east of the Mass Pike for a callout.

Posted by: sempergumby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfman

If that's the best they can do, I'm damn glad I live a few counties away.

So are we

Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

Pike runs East to West. East of the Pike would probably be the Atlantic. I'd hate to have to follow you to a callout.

That's the next headline.....(whatever)LEC DRIVE INTO BOSTON HARBOR DURING BOTCHED CALL-OUT. "...the operation went flawlessly, except the loss of 7 personally-owned vehicles to the Atlantic Ocean...."

Posted by: nirtallica

Quote:

Originally Posted by youareadolt

Another shit stirrer. From what I hear, Col Delaney is not a fan of the LECS. He is the highest law enforcement official in the state. I am sure he will have some input on the Hill. Who gives a fuck about the Sheriffs. I could care less if they hate me. What are they ever going to be other than County babysitters? You can go to the next call out in your POV while I will be parking my cruiser in my driveway, complete with a gas card and pike pass. On my way in the house after my shift, I will be checking my pay stub for my 19% raise that was just awarded via contract. All this and I make over 100,000. benjis a year. God life is good. How is your PD treatin' you these days? By the way, if they make us a Highway patrol, I can't imagine 2400 Troopers on every highway in the State.

Posted by: EJI

I left out East of Mass Pike at 495.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by EJI

I left out East of Mass Pike at 495.

Sure ya did, genius.

Make sure you honk at me as you drive to your callout in your Kia with the bubble light attached to the roof Starsky style. It's always good for a laugh.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

Make sure you honk at me as you drive to your callout in your Kia with the bubble light attached to the roof Starsky style. It's always good for a laugh.

With an attitude like that, does it really surprise you that so many city & town cops think a lot of state troopers are complete toolbags? Christ, get over yourselves already.

I really hope you don't play poker, because your visceral reaction to LEC's only tips your hand that you see the writing on the wall. I have no dog in that fight, but it's pretty amusing to see the mere mention of those three letters send you into a tizzy.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

I'm not entitled to respond to this?

Quote:

Be sure to save enough money to re-letter your cruisers MASS HIGHWAY PATROL.
I'll honk on my way to the next call out, be safe.....(behind your desk)

Posted by: CQB_Arms

For the record:

We at CQB Arms, CWMARS, D&S guns support law enforcement in the pursuit of justice and safety.
Be it MSP STOP team, LEC's, or local SWAT teams, we think the most important portion of your endeavor besides rock solid equipment, is superior training.

Stay Safe
CAS

Posted by: MARINECOP

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirtallica

I think it is you who is a shit stirrer with a post like that. You are a real class act. Arrogant little prick.

Posted by: dcs2244

Swell, another "sword fighting" thread. Regardless of whether it's sheriff/local/LEC/STOP, let's hope that whatever incident arises will end safely for all concerned. Having said that, I am willing to wager that the success of a special ops team is directly proportional to that teams frequency of training. I reckon experienced leadership might have something to do with success as well.

Or not.

Ready.....FIGHT!

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

I'm not entitled to respond to this?

Of course you are, but if you chuck rocks at someone (look at your past posts, or even your sig file), don't be hugely surprised when a few rocks come whizzing back in your direction.

Also, please notice I said "a lot of" state troopers, which doesn't include all of you. I have several close, personal friends who are troopers, and also some very informal, Internet friends who are troopers.

You don't like LEC's. We get it. The unfortunate thing is that the institutional arrogant attitude of the Massachusetts State Police created the LEC's, in the first place. For the last few times in memory that we've needed a SWAT/STOP team (including when a Boston Police Officer was shot in Quincy), we called Boston PD, and they've answered the call, every time. It's nice having a Special Operations Team a few minutes away. It's especially nice to know that the members of that Special Operations Team have actually answered gun calls on a regular basis, before they got onto said Special Operations Team. Can the MA State Police STOP Team make the same claim? I think not.

In that same vein, bbelichick, I responded to 2 gun calls during my last shift. How about you?

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

In that same vein, bbelichick, I responded to 2 gun calls during my last shift. How about you?

Last night? I was home.

Have I been to gun calls? Sure. Shots fired? Of course. Homicides? Yup. And I work in a slow area. Is it a regular thing? No.

But I fail to see how that has any bearing on a cop's ability, when PROPERLY TRAINED, to respond as a member of a SWAT team. FYI most of the PD's on some of these LECS are from small PD's with little going on, either. They just don't, and CAN'T train enough.

Posted by: j809

Now, now let's all get along and play nice together. I don't see why we exert so much energy on this site about things we totally have no control over. So MSP doesn't like LECs, fine, but the powers that be, that can change LECs and MGLs and CMRS and whatever else, are not the members on this board. So why are we taking things so personally? It is really sad and pathetic, to see police officers show so much hatred towards other police officers because of an assigned function that they do for their department. I think it's time to lock this thread and any other threads that cops bash other cops.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by j809

Now, now let's all get along and play nice together. I don't see why we exert so much energy on this site about things we totally have no control over. So MSP doesn't like LECs, fine, but the powers that be, that can change LECs and MGLs and CMRS and whatever else, are not the members on this board. So why are we taking things so personally? It is really sad and pathetic, to see police officers show so much hatred towards other police officers because of an assigned function that they do for their department. I think it's time to lock this thread and any other threads that cops bash other cops.

Fair enough...except for Sheriffs.

Posted by: j809

You betcha!!

Posted by: nevrehc

Two gun calls? Must mean you didn't catch your first one. If you did you should have been tied up with paperwork. HMM, seems I might have seen some STOP team members on the foot chase the other night when a gun was recovered in Boston after a pursuit/bailout. So I guess they are now qualified to respond to a gun call using your logic. Right? I'll be sure to let them know if they want they can respond to Quincy because DELTA has now deemed them ok to respond as long as they have responded to a gun call before. (All MSP call DELTA, before you start your rhetoric). You don't always have your information correct. Anyway be safe and I make a motion to close this stupid thread.

Posted by: BrickCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevrehc

Two gun calls? Must mean you didn't catch your first one. If you did you should have been tied up with paperwork.

You mock a city cop's claim of receiving two gun calls on a shift? There are many variables and outcomes to such calls. For example, the man with a gun call(s) may have proved to be unfounded, or perhaps the suspect was gone upon arrival...see things like that actually happen sometimes although those of us who've actually responded to such calls already know this.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickCop

A lot of Troopers in the Western part of the State probably go to MORE "Shots fired" calls than local cops (not including Springfield).

Although it's usually Jeb and not some gangbanger...but nonetheless...

Posted by: SOT

This is probably true. I think they show up once a week at my bosses house.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

Last night? I was home.

I didn't ask about last night, I asked about your last shift.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

Have I been to gun calls? Sure. Shots fired? Of course. Homicides? Yup. And I work in a slow area. Is it a regular thing? No.

Fair enough.

How many of those calls were you actually dispatched to? As in....your dispatcher sent you to a certain address, because they received a 911 call about shots-fired, or something involving a gun? I'm not really interested in how many city & town PD calls you responded to, because anyone with a scanner & a car can do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

But I fail to see how that has any bearing on a cop's ability, when PROPERLY TRAINED, to respond as a member of a SWAT team. FYI most of the PD's on some of these LECS are from small PD's with little going on, either. They just don't, and CAN'T train enough.

There is a huge difference between "TRAINING", and "DOING".

BTW.....I had to laugh at the word you used....."either", because, with that word, you acknowledged that the MSP has little going-on, in regards to real crime. Not really a big shock to a lot of us.

I'd like to mention here that I certainly don't blame the very small departments, way-out West, for utilizing the STOP team. Any unit with heavy weapons and body armor that will provide free services to my small department....hell, yeah!

Just remember that any PD in the greater Boston area (a large percentage of the state's population) will most likely call either the Boston PD, or a LEC, when they need a "SWAT Team".

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

How many of those calls were you actually dispatched to? As in....your dispatcher sent you to a certain address, because they received a 911 call about shots-fired, or something involving a gun? I'm not really interested in how many city & town PD calls you responded to, because anyone with a scanner & a car can do that.

The ones the MSP are dispatched to are the ones I am referring to. I wasn't referring to assists.

P.S. If you want to go there, we could re-start the debate that "anyone with a radio and a car" can respond to calls. It takes initiative and smarts to FIND guns, drugs etc...

Quote:

BTW.....I had to laugh at the word you used....."either", because, with that word, you acknowledged that the MSP has little going-on, in regards to real crime. Not really a big shock to a lot of us.

Big assumption; I was referring to what you were IMPLYING, not reality.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

There is a huge difference between "TRAINING", and "DOING".

Yup. You can't "DO" if you haven't been TRAINED. In the Tac Ops world, trying to fake it results in incompetence, lawsuits and tragedy.

Posted by: youareadolt

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

Yup. You can't "DO" if you haven't been TRAINED. In the Tac Ops world, trying to fake it results in incompetence, lawsuits and tragedy.

you seem to have some intimate knowledge of the amount of training and or experience these LECS have. Please let fill us in:

How much training do the various teams receive? How many calls do they respond to and how many total have they gone to?

Based on your confidence and claims of liability revolving around these teams you must have all the facts. I'm sure the people who hang on your every word, myself included would love to know.

Speaking of Liability and again based on your confident tone when you speak I’d imagine that these teams have at some point been sued or more importantly successfully sued for some negligent acts or failure to training type suit. Which team and how much did it cost the town? I'm guessing Nemlec would be the best benchmark since they've been around for 30years or so.

How many people have they unjustifiably hurt or killed during a callout?

And since you quote the Tac-ops world---(In the Tac Ops world, trying to fake it results in incompetence, lawsuits and tragedy)----who said that?----and what part of the Tac ops world are you involved in?

Just curious.....

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by youareadolt

Tell ya what. Prove me wrong. The MSP STOP team trains at a minimum several times a week. They have full time members and a full time Command Structure.

Does NEMLEC do all of that? Would their Chiefs allow them?

Lawsuits? There have just been a few complaints right now. Nothing has risen YET to the level of a lawsuit...YET, but you can be guaranteed it will. The LEC's have f*cked up multiple callouts, and we both know it. This last one is just the latest. When someone gets killed, that's when you will really see the sh*t hit the fan.

As far as NEMLEC being around for 30 years..BULLSH*T. The organization may have been, but the Tac Ops explosion started after 2001. So stop playing word games.

Do you deny that a SWAT team that trains on an infrequent basis with Officers from varying jurisdictions with differing protocols and radios is bad? Or are you blind?

Posted by: 911guy

I heard that the LEC's were going to hire the illegal immigrants that the MSP was using to clean their stations!

Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

BTW.....I had to laugh at the word you used....."either", because, with that word, you acknowledged that the MSP has little going-on, in regards to real crime. Not really a big shock to a lot of us.

You and 48weeks ought to get married and buy a condo together....you share a true love of hating the state police. Nice to see two lost souls find each other on the internet.

www.masscops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13260

Posted by: dcs2244

Okay, I've wanted to close this thread for a while...I just wanted the major players to be able to respond to one another: Delta, BBel, et cetera.

Nothing personal, it's just that none of this is productive. How many times have we covered this ground? Let's just agree to disagree.

Had I known that my comment regarding the use of the word "flawless" would have lead to this, I'd have just kept quiet. I had not meant to criticize the response to the situation, rather I meant to highlight the chief's use of the word "flawless", and then his description of the "flaws" of the "flawless" operation.

I guess my point was: issue a carefully worded (vague and nonspecific) written statement (a "press release") and hold off on the press conference until you have your ducks in a row...the news weasels will just have to wait...say, 24 hours or so.

If you have a problem/comment/concern with what I just wrote, PM me or start a new thread inre: "how to handle the press after an incident". You are under no obligation to give a live press conference...wait until you get your sh*t together.

In any event, the thread is closed.

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