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Posted by: 48Weeks

I often get accused of knocking the State Police. This thread is not a knock. Please do not take it as such. With that said...... What is the need for a 26 week live-in academy? What type of training do Troopers receive that locals do not in a local academy? Do the Troopers receive more training than a local or do they simply receive more "discipline"? I am just curious as to what the hell goes on there for 26 weeks, as I have graduated from a local academy where there was lots of down time. Is all the extra time spent shining boots and getting yelled at OR do SP recruits actually have hours and hours of classroom instruction? Just curious. Troopers, please don't get all defensive and I would appreciate it if the name calling is kept to a minimum. Stay safe.

Posted by: OciferpeteHPD3500

http://www.wimp.com/poorcop/

Watch this, and then THINK about your question again!

Posted by: nirtallica

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

Are you really a cop or a sh@@ stirrer?

Posted by: tarc

After watching that video, I only wondered why that cop kept trying to call for help on his radio, rather than to start fighting back? I understand you have to call for help, but you also can't take a pounding like that.

Posted by: 48Weeks

All Cop here. And what are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirtallica

Are you really a cop or a sh@@ stirrer?

Posted by: 48Weeks

OK, I watched it. And your point is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OciferpeteHPD3500

http://www.wimp.com/poorcop/

Watch this, and then THINK about your question again!

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/msp/a...dule-week4.doc

Read the schedule on the website. It's public information.

Posted by: PearlOnyx

48,

Academic comparison aside, that discipline that you mention is extremley important. The discipline that is prevalent in this environment is character building, and the "downtime" that you experience is a great help to your academics. There are no distractions, no family, bills, just you and the academy. Even if the curriculum is the same (I'm not sure), in such an isolated environment, it dramatically improves your learning.

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by PearlOnyx

I'm attending a "live-in" academy now, and I can tell you that the discipline that is prevalent in this environment

Then how in the hell did you just post something on the internet on a Tuesday afternoon at 18:24???

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by SinePari

Then how in the hell did you just post something on the internet on a Tuesday afternoon at 18:24???

What, you didn't have the Internet at your RTT?

The best part of my academy was the X Box tournaments before lights out...

Posted by: 48Weeks

You can use the computer and go on "masscops" while at the academy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PearlOnyx

48,

Academic comparison aside, that discipline that you mention is extremley important. I'm attending a "live-in" academy now, and I can tell you that the discipline that is prevalent in this environment (similar, but not the same as MSP) is character building, and the "downtime" that you experience is a great help to your academics. There are no distractions, no family, bills, just you and the academy. Even if the curriculum is the same (I'm not sure), in such an isolated environment, it dramatically improves your learning.

Posted by: BrickCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by SinePari

Then how in the hell did you just post something on the internet on a Tuesday afternoon at 18:24???

LMAO....OWNED...good catch SinePari...

Posted by: kwflatbed

PearlOnyx should be near the end of his academy in FL he is not at the MSP.

Posted by: nirtallica

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

All Cop here. And what are you?

All Trooper here. I think the reason you bash us is because you could not be one of us so this is your way of coping.

Posted by: Hartmn

26 weeks is a long time, but its not even long enough to cover everything in as much depth and detail as there should be. The days are longer, ,and the environment is far different. Some people don't handle stress well.. some people get stressed over relatively benign things. A live in format does help make sure you are trruly committed to the job. The LAST thing anyone wants is some guy who tests well taking up a slot that someone else would have killed for..then leaving the job because they never got challeneged enough to make that decision in the academy. I came on the job in the 80's and the first time I saw that was in a class in the mid 90's. Several people went through the whole academy..then left shortly after. It wasted money, and an opportunity for someone else. It was a sign that the training had swung too far in the kinder and gentler direction.

Posted by: SPO123

[quote=48Weeks]I often get accused of knocking the State Police. This thread is not a knock. Please do not take it as such. With that said...... What is the need for a 26 week live-in academy? What type of training do Troopers receive that locals do not in a local academy? Do the Troopers receive more training than a local or do they simply receive more "discipline"?

BINGO...let me tell you what I learned from a DI at the local academy. He told us about when he was 1 year OTJ. He stopped a guy who got out of his truck and started screaming "Don't F***ing come near may and kept motioning that he was going to pull something out from under his seat. The local kept ordering him to show his hands, kept radioing for backup. Along comes MSP. Trooper gets out, places his hat on his head, tips it and walks over to the local..."what you got here?" The officer is shaking (justified) and tells him. Trooper looks at the perp and says "ok", walks around to the side, draws his Sig, walks towards the guy and shouts "Sir, I am Trooper XXXX with the Massachusetts State Police" points his weapon dead on "and you are about to die". Perp throws his hands up, turns around puts his hands on his head. End of story.

Not to say I would do the same, but the MSP teaches you more than you can learn anywhere else in this country. So says the local DI. A couple years ago I was working a concert...even I was intimidated by the Motorcycle Unit Troopers...

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Our Academy is more styled after military boot camp than any other in Massachusetts. It is one that has been modeled by other state agencies across the country. The MSP is more of a paramilitary organization than any local departments I have seen in Massachusetts.

That being said, since it is modeled after the military, read what military boot camps are designed for and maybe this will answer your question
"Boot camps essentially training camps. The term 'boot camp' is derived from the grueling footwear that is provided to boot camp trainees in the military. Boot camps last for a couple of weeks and are specifically designed for special purposes.

The original boot camps are military boot camps. All branches of the armed forces have boot camps including the army, marines, coast guard, navy and air force. Boot camps for the military train their recruits in physical strength, weapon use, technical and theoretical knowledge, comradeship, leadership and discipline among many other code value. The actual effect of boot camps is more mental than physical. Trainees are deprived of sleep, food and communication and made to live in extremely unfavorable conditions to test how far they can push themselves.

Most boot camp instructors are harsh-spoken, work-extracting people. They are experts in their own fields and are conditioned to exert their trainees to the maximum, in order to bring out their best. Boot camps end with elaborate ceremonies, where degrees or awards are given to the passed out candidates."

http://www.e-bootcamps.com/

Posted by: Sgt. Canseco

Quote:

"Sir, I am Trooper XXXX with the Massachusetts State Police" points his weapon dead on "and you are about to die"

Outstanding!!!!

Posted by: chief801

My DI in MPOC was a Trooper and we asked him the same question. I was told by him that he conducted our class exactly the same way as he did the RTT Classes. The big difference was the "extracurricular" stuff like throwing bedding out of the windows during the wee hours of the morning obviously wasn't done to our class. Different stress level knowing that you are going home somewhere around 1600 - 1630 everyday. Other than that, he said he basically followed the same "script".

Posted by: 48Weeks

Negative on that one, but nice try. I respect your job but have no urge to be a Trooper. I would be bored out of my mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirtallica

All Trooper here. I think the reason you bash us is because you could not be one of us so this is your way of coping.

Posted by: BrickCop

[quote=SPO123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

I often get accused of knocking the State Police. This thread is not a knock. Please do not take it as such. With that said...... What is the need for a 26 week live-in academy? What type of training do Troopers receive that locals do not in a local academy? Do the Troopers receive more training than a local or do they simply receive more "discipline"?

BINGO...let me tell you what I learned from a DI at the local academy. He told us about when he was 1 year OTJ. He stopped a guy who got out of his truck and started screaming "Don't F***ing come near may and kept motioning that he was going to pull something out from under his seat. The local kept ordering him to show his hands, kept radioing for backup. Along comes MSP. Trooper gets out, places his hat on his head, tips it and walks over to the local..."what you got here?" The officer is shaking (justified) and tells him. Trooper looks at the perp and says "ok", walks around to the side, draws his Sig, walks towards the guy and shouts "Sir, I am Trooper XXXX with the Massachusetts State Police" points his weapon dead on "and you are about to die". Perp throws his hands up, turns around puts his hands on his head. End of story.

Not to say I would do the same, but the MSP teaches you more than you can learn anywhere else in this country. So says the local DI. A couple years ago I was working a concert...even I was intimidated by the Motorcycle Unit Troopers...

Of course In fairness I am sure that I am not the only one who've worked with local/city cops that commanded a scene where sh!t was about to hit the fan. The training is an integral component but a lot depends on the individual officer/trooper.

Posted by: 48Weeks

Great story, I got teary eyed. I hope you don't believe that most locals couldn't handle this situation. There are those who shouldn't be cops on my job and yours my friend. You want to know what I would do (in your scenerio)? I would get out my cruiser, draw down with my SIG, I would probably swear at him a bit, and in the end I would take the appropriate action. Yes, it would be nerve racking, but I and 95% of "locals" would do the right thing, just like 95% of Troopers would do the right thing. One thing I would do different is leave the cover in my car. I wouldn't waste my precious time putting my freaken cover on as someone is challenging me like in this scenerio. Covers have a role, but not in a call like this. Any officer should know that in your scenerio putting on their cover should not be a high priority. Stay safe.

[quote=SPO123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

Posted by: tazoez

HAHAHA --- im sorry but as a "lemming" I can truthfully say this.
The summer cover and uniforms that the MSP have scare the hell out of me -- by means of intimidation. I see a Trooper walking up to my car wearing that and I'm only saying "Yes sir" or "No sir".

Posted by: PearlOnyx

Sine and others,

I'm out of state. Believe it or not, we have Internet. Comparison wise, and just speaking from comparison from friends who went through the academy with MSP, there seems to be more of a focus on constant discipline there, and more of a focus on academics here. I never went through the RTT though, so I can't speak for sure. I kind of wish we didn't have the net. I probalby spend a half hour on here at night, and the rest of the night on uniforms and studying. I could probably better spend that time, but it's nice to keep in contact with friends and family.

Brick,

Owned? Umm, no not really. Including my previous screen name, I've been on this site for around 5 years, and have been a moderator for around 3 of those (maybe more on both accounts). I'm smart enough (and adult/professional enough) not to post petty lies on here. Good looking out though!

KT,

Thank you for the clarification in my absence.

Posted by: tomcats

If a bad guy got intimidated by a uniform then he wasn't much of a bad guy to begin with. I'm with 48weeks on this one. Whoever the local was he/she must not of had good training because the minute a dirtball starts reaching for something then the whole scenario changes and it's going to end up bad for him.And taz, if you don't want to say yes sir or no sir to me thats fine. I'm perfectly happy to gig you and send you on your way while I adjust my un-intimidating summer blues.

Posted by: irish937

Seriously!! You guys who want to be troopers need to stop kissing ass so much. Nobody likes it and you know who you are. It's starting to get nauseating. As for the car stop situation.....and get this through your head all you future crime fighters. Every cop, municipal, state or otherwise has training on how to deal with situations like these. Sometimes training fails, sometimes the individual fails. Every job, state, local or county has their share of "bags" (technical term). Uniforms in general are intimidating, otherwise it wouldn't be considered the first level in use of force. Is one uniform more intimidating than another? Maybe, I suppose it depends on who you are and your mindset. I would submit that it is the person wearing it and how they handle themselves that would be the biggest determining factor, not the color or the patch on the sleeve.

Posted by: screamineagle

Well said Irish.

Posted by: SinePari

48weeks,

You obviously started this thread to get negative reactions and to stir the shit around a bit. I'm no fan of that fairy tale and it sounds like something you tell to 17 year olds in boot camp. But to post the things you've said, it sounds like you're trying to justify making the right decision going to the municipal academy, and hoping fellow posters will join in the SPA bashing. You probably heard it at your academy, "AAA with a gun", "MA Highway Patrol", and this and that.

Take that bullshit somewhere else or post something that will stimulate thoughtful debate.

PearlOnyx,

I was just jugglin' your nuts, man. Congratulations on your training.

Posted by: dcs2244

Sine, I've always preferred the appellation "Glorified Meter Maid"!

Posted by: dfc2502

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

From my personal experience, we do receive more training and yes, more discipline. Go to the MSP website and you can look at the weekly training schedule. When I went through there was no "down time" at least no conscience down time. Again look at the schedule. Hell, even eating was an exercise in character building. The one hour of personal time at the end of the day was spent shining boots, doing to-froms or whatever other task you needed to get done. If you were caught up, you helped someone else!!

If you do look at the schedule keep in mind that each academic class is already stream lined due to time restraints, so other than a short piss break you are attentive and taking notes. The physical classes (maybe not morning PT anymore - I dont know) were just that - physical. We went full out and yes injuries happened so did throwing up from the intense exertion.

Now with the scenario based training being expanded, I wouldn't bet against the training going longer than 26 weeks.

Posted by: BrickCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by PearlOnyx

Brick,

Owned? Umm, no not really. Including my previous screen name, I've been on this site for around 5 years, and have been a moderator for around 3 of those (maybe more on both accounts). I'm smart enough (and adult/professional enough) not to post petty lies on here. Good looking out though!

I stand corrected...

Posted by: 48Weeks

Uh no. I actually posted this thread because I was curious as to what the difference is between academies other than more "discipline" at the state pd academy. I don't believe that I have written anything stating that I believe Troopers are "AAA with a badge and a gun" bluh bluh bluh. Why would you bring this up? You don't have to defend yourself here. I know you guys do more than stop cars, especially when you get into a specialized unit. So settle down SINEPARI and take a deep breath. Stay safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SinePari

48weeks,

You obviously started this thread to get negative reactions and to stir the shit around a bit. I'm no fan of that fairy tale and it sounds like something you tell to 17 year olds in boot camp. But to post the things you've said, it sounds like you're trying to justify making the right decision going to the municipal academy, and hoping fellow posters will join in the SPA bashing. You probably heard it at your academy, "AAA with a gun", "MA Highway Patrol", and this and that.

Take that bullshit somewhere else or post something that will stimulate thoughtful debate.

PearlOnyx,

I was just jugglin' your nuts, man. Congratulations on your training.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

I know you guys do more than stop cars, especially when you get into a specialized unit.

Any good cop knows there's a LOT more to a car stop than writing a ticket.

Dig deep, and ye shall find.

The MSP does a lot more self initiated stuff, and most locals are call driven (in general). Neither is better, just different.

Posted by: PearlOnyx

Sine,

It's all good. If you were to get to know me personally, you'd probably find my sense of humor a little strange. I don't find much funny...very dry. I'm working on it =)

Brick,

It's all good.

Posted by: nirtallica

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

Tpr. M Cherven-Meth Lab. Need I say more!

Posted by: chief801

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

In small towns it is almost all self initiated stuff...not a ton of calls

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

I don't believe that I have written anything stating that I believe Troopers are "AAA with a badge and a gun" bluh bluh bluh. Why would you bring this up?

I stated that because the tone in your previous post seemed condescending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

Negative on that one, but nice try. I respect your job but have no urge to be a Trooper. I would be bored out of my mind.

So what exactly do you mean by "bored"? I'm completely befuddled at your "respect" for the job, but you somehow would be bored. Correct me if that didn't sound condescending.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirtallica

Tpr. M Cherven-Meth Lab. Need I say more!

Cherven is a hammer.

Posted by: 40th MPOC#309

MSP & Locals: EQUAL-Just different!!!! We all are on the same page, want to get the job done and go home to our loved ones. ENUFF SAID!

Posted by: regnar1194

I couldn't agree with Sinepari more, 48 Weeks, you sound as if you are insecure regarding your municipal academy, and you are trying to justify it. You are looking for others to trash the SPA so you can feel better about yourself by trashing another. Your use of quotation marks around the word discipline makes it it look like you scoff at the idea that the discipline required in the SPA isn't important, I couldn't disagree with you more. If you are happy being a local officer then take pride in it and do your job, there is nothing wrong with it. I have nothing against local officers, I back them up just as I would another Trooper, I do have something against all officers that disgrace their uniforms regardless of the uniform it may be. If you are insecure about yourself and want to hear nothing but faint praise and words like the municpal academy is no different than the SPA, you should probably go elsewhere. I am sure you will find some sympathyzing words from others, maybe even some that want to trash the academy because they were too weak to make it through themselves.

Posted by: 48Weeks

No insecurities here, but thanks for your concern. I will put my training up against most others out there. Yes, I am proud to be a local and take much pride in the job. I obviously have not gone through a Trooper academy and was simply trying to figure out what else goes on there. Most replies to my post answered questions that I had, others took my posting as a knock for some reason (insecurities on their part?). Stay safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by regnar1194

I couldn't agree with Sinepari more, 48 Weeks, you sound as if you are insecure regarding your municipal academy, and you are trying to justify it. You are looking for others to trash the SPA so you can feel better about yourself by trashing another. Your use of quotation marks around the word discipline makes it it look like you scoff at the idea that the discipline required in the SPA isn't important, I couldn't disagree with you more. If you are happy being a local officer then take pride in it and do your job, there is nothing wrong with it. I have nothing against local officers, I back them up just as I would another Trooper, I do have something against all officers that disgrace their uniforms regardless of the uniform it may be. If you are insecure about yourself and want to hear nothing but faint praise and words like the municpal academy is no different than the SPA, you should probably go elsewhere. I am sure you will find some sympathyzing words from others, maybe even some that want to trash the academy because they were too weak to make it through themselves.

Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by PearlOnyx

#67 since the Big Rebuild, if I'm not mistaken...

Posted by: LA Copper

I don't understand it. I read many of these posts on a number of different topics and much of what I see is many of you guys slamming each other. What's up with that? I can understand a friendly rivalry between departments or between staties and locals but some of you guys take it to extreme. Maybe I've been away too long but I just don't get it. Aren't we all supposed to be on the same side? Can't we all just get along?

If a major incident happens, everyone is gonna have to play nice together. During the 1992 riots out here in Los Angeles, it got so bad that we had mutual aid come from dozens of different departments and we were glad to have them, even though we do things differently than most of them. In fact, we do things differenly out here than many of you guys too. I'm not sure why, but we do.

For example, we wouldn't have approached the suspect near his car with his hand concealed, especially not while we're alone. The "cover" I was thinking about was the cover that would help save me (like my patrol car) if the guy came out shooting, not the one on my head. A local can get killed just as fast and just as easily as a statie. We're all susceptible. We do both, chase the radio and officer initiated stuff. Since I've been on my department, we've had 34 officers killed..

By the way, our academy is not live-in and was 24 weeks when I went through in 1988. And we did not have any down time. Today, the academy is still not live-in but is now up to 28 weeks and there is still no down time. As someone else previously said, how about we take pride in the job we do and let the other guy take pride in his.

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by 48Weeks

No insecurities here, but thanks for your concern. I will put my training up against most others out there. Yes, I am proud to be a local and take much pride in the job. I obviously have not gone through a Trooper academy and was simply trying to figure out what else goes on there. Most replies to my post answered questions that I had, others took my posting as a knock for some reason (insecurities on their part?). Stay safe.

Well, for starters, just go to the website, check out the pictures and schedules and you can figure out from others what goes on there. If you have a hunch that sometimes it gets a little crazy there, you're probably right. Academics unitl 8pm every day, about 140 hours of DT, inspections, military drill, PT of course, and constantly under the watchful eyes of the DIs. The biggest difference is after dinner, we don't go home.

Any other questions, just take the next exam.

Posted by: O-302

Attended the "live-in" 71st MPOC @ MSP Academy in Framingham. Although it was only 12 weeks long in 1980, I wouldn't have wanted to do it any other way. Great experience; exceptional training. Grievances and law suits for overtime put an end to the live-in academies for locals.

Posted by: tazoez

Quote:

Originally Posted by O-302

Attended the "live-in" 71st MPOC @ MSP Academy in Framingham. Although it was only 12 weeks long in 1980, I wouldn't have wanted to do it any other way. Great experience; exceptional training. Grievances and law suits for overtime put an end to the live-in academies for locals.

Not to ask a stupid question -- but I am going to anyways --, why would there be a Grievance about living at the academy?

Posted by: O-302

Not a stupid question. Strictly a pay issue. Some officers felt that if you have them at the academy for 24 hrs. a day, you owe them overtime. When I was hired, you worked until an academy opening came up and you went. So, you were already hired, not a cadet, and were covered by a collective bargaining agreement.

Posted by: tazoez

Quote:

Originally Posted by O-302

Not a stupid question. Strictly a pay issue. Some officers felt that if you have them at the academy for 24 hrs. a day, you owe them overtime. When I was hired, you worked until an academy opening came up and you went. So, you were already hired, not a cadet, and were covered by a collective bargaining agreement.

Ah, thank you for explaining that for me.

Posted by: Killjoy

48weeks is a well known statie-basher...I cite as examples two previous threads:

http://www.masscops.com/forums/showt...6&page=7&pp=10

http://www.masscops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13260

I'm fairly certain that he has absolutely no interest in finding out the difference between a municipal academy and a state academy....if someone were genuinely interested there are many better ways to get the info...maybe starting with MSP/NHSP/VSP, etc. website. I also get a kick out of his passive-aggressive response to anyone that seems to get angry at his insulting posts.

Now, to someone who actually IS interested in knowing why state academies are different than local academies, its no mystery, its that our job is different than other law enforcement jobs. Just like USMC boot camp is different from US Army boot camp, and that's different from USAF boot camp, and so on and so on....each of the services has their own set of values and skills they're trying to impart on their recruits. Why does the FBI sends their people to an academy with a collared-shirt and khakis collegiate atmosphere with virtually no stress? Because its the right thing for their job...the FBI are primarily investigators, they are generally not involved in the types of things that uniformed officers are involved in, despite what you see on TV. And just like that, our job is also different than a municipal officer's job.

Troopers tend to work alone, in a large geographic area (my first patrol area had nine cities in it including Springfield, Holyoke and Chicopee) with limited access to backup. We have very little field supervision, and Troopers with not much time on the job are trusted to make momentous decisions. Much of our patrol relies on pro-active patrolling, finding cars or people and stopping them, and seeing what shakes out. While we still have to respond to highway calls and calls for service in rural areas, a large amount of our time is self-initiated patrol. Local departments spend much of their time servicing the 911 system, which, by its very nature, is reactive. With the exception of traffic units and anti-crime units, most of an local officer's shift consists of going from one call out to another.

Another component of our work consists of gathering in large groups to respond to instances of rioting or civil disobedience. This means we have to be able to assemble quickly, with a clear chain of command, with a common set of terminology and commands, and this can be anywhere in the state. I have personally been involved in a couple of instances of this and its an impressive sight. Nothing like 40-50 Troopers standing the skirmish line in lockdown mode.

I have nothing but respect for the locals out there, most of the ones I've worked with have been nothing but professional...but our jobs are as much different as alike, and one can't expect the training to be exactly the same.

Posted by: PearlOnyx

Wolf,

Honestly, I've lost track. I lurked on the old site for a long long time too under a different name before the big rebuild. Anyway, just making the point that I know this board, and what paths threads go down like the back of my hand! =)

Posted by: tarc

Killjoy I couldn't agree with you more about the different aspects of the job. In the municipal academy, there are so many different PDs represented, that the academy can't really focus on one certain aspect of the job/location/geography, like the SPA or Boston PD does. The municipal academy seems more like a general approach/training to the job. You could be from a fairly large city PD, but sitting beside you is the chief of some rural PD, in which he is the only FT officer. Does that make it worse than the others, I guess it depends on who you ask. The academy is a good start towards ones career. But the real work officially starts the day you hit the streets.

Posted by: SinePari

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killjoy

48weeks is a well known statie-basher...I cite as examples two previous threads:

http://www.masscops.com/forums/showt...6&page=7&pp=10

http://www.masscops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13260

I should've known better...I like how he says "I'm not trying to bash staties" in all of his threads. Just because they're not regulars on COPS doesn't mean there's nothing going on.

Posted by: regnar1194

Thanks Killjoy, makes the situation all the clearer, whats the matter 48 weeks, couldnt score high enough on the State Police Exam regardless of the State, or possibly coudlnt cut it in the competition with other recruits and now your just jaded at the State Police in general. Go Troll elsewhere

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