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Posted by: policelaborlaw.com

Police union to fight merger

Its ads make light of municipal force

By Andrea Estes, Globe Staff | April 13, 2006

Boston's powerful police union is preparing an assault on the city's plan to fold its Municipal Police Department into the Boston Police Department, with a legal challenge and biting radio ads.

Mayor Thomas M. Menino included the merger in his budget for next year.

He has argued that combining the forces can add much-needed officers to an understaffed force without spending more money.

But Thomas J. Nee, president of the Boston Police Patrolmen's Association, says that the move is illegal and could jeopardize public safety by putting unqualified officers on the street.

''These candidates have not achieved the minimum entrance requirements that everyone else in the Boston Police Department has," Nee said. ''I'm certain the public wants the most qualified, competitvely tested individuals on the job.

''If they were of the same standards as Boston police, they would have been hired by now," Nee added.

In the radio ads, to begin airing next week, the union will urge Boston residents to lobby city councilors to block the planned merger. The consolidation is set to go into effect next January, according to officials.

The scheduled radio ads disparagingly refer to the Municipal Police officers, whose jurisdiction currently extends to city buildings and parks, as ''building security guards."

''Today political patronage is threatening the safety of our community," says the announcer, in a draft of the ad that will air on AM stations WILD, WRKO, and WBZ.

''The municipal building security guards are attempting to circumvent civil service and become Boston police officers. They have been afforded the same opportunities as every other citizens, but have failed to meet the standards. They now are attempting the political back door."

On Tuesday, lawyers for the police union filed with the state Civil Service Commission a ''motion to intervene" in the city's request to declare 23 municipal officers permanent civil service employees.

The city's request, if granted, would pave the way for the municipal officers to be placed in the Boston Police Department without passing the state civil service exam, which is required of Police Department officers.

Municipal Police officers were not required to take the exam. The union argues that any effort to transfer the municipal officers into the department would violate state law requiring all employees in civil service jobs to be hired based on their exam performance.

''There was always only one way to become a Boston police officer: score high enough on the test, pass the background check, and go through the 29-week academy," said Bryan Decker, a police union lawyer. ''Everyone at the Boston Police Department did that, including the commissioner. For the first time, people who haven't met these standards will be offered the job and get in through the back door."

Forty-six Municipal Police officers had been declared civil service employees by a separate commission ruling in 1999. The Boston police union is also disputing the validity of that ruling.

Mark McKeown, president of the Boston Municipal Police Patrolmen's Association, said his members are as qualified as regular police officers. He pointed out that many Municipal Police officers at some point applied to be Boston Police Department officers and took the exam as part of the application process.

''Every officer has taken the civil service exam," McKeown said. ''They've all scored well, but for different reasons weren't hired. We have veterans and people who served in Afghanistan and Iraq. They work in the same exact city, under the rules and regulations of the Boston Police Department. They carry a gun and a badge for the city of Boston."

He called the Boston Police Patrolmen's Association campaign to kill the merger a waste of money. ''If their priority is to bash another union, I think their priorities are a little misplaced," he said. ''It's pretty sad when a fellow union viciously attacks another union."

The Boston Police Patrolmen's Association should support the merger, he said, because the new police officers would be dues-paying members of the association and because the addition of new officers would lighten the workload of current officers.

Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole supports the proposed merger, according to her spokeswoman, Elaine Driscoll.

City officials said they filed papers last week with the Civil Service Commission to clarify the status of Municipal Police officers, not necessarily to begin the merger process.

''All parties here need to get some clear direction from the Civil Service Commission about the status of this work force," said John Dunlap, the city's director of labor relations.

Dunlap said that only some of the city's 69 Municipal Police officers will probably transfer to the Boston Police Department. Some may choose not to apply because they are near retirement or live outside the city and would have to move to Boston to comply with the city's residency requirement.

Posted by: WGM

''The municipal building security guards are attempting to circumvent civil service and become Boston police officers. They have been afforded the same opportunities as every other citizens, but have failed to meet the standards. They now are attempting the political back door."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Circumvent Civil Service? Maybe the BPPA should look into the Cadet program. Be a LT's coffee bitch for two years, score a minimum 70% and get into the academy on preference. All because your parents have the key to "the political back door" aka Mayor and the Commish

Posted by: 48Weeks

Got to disagree with the Boston PD Union here. Think about all of the "consent decree" hires in the past who were not the best candidates for the job. Also, what about the cadet program BPD has which you can only get into if you know someone? There is no test that I know of to become a BPD cadet, however, these cadets go right to the top of the list (a 70 gets hired over a person who gets a 100 with no political connections). If the BPD Union wants to do the right thing, then fight for an open competitive test that anyone in the country can take. Then, they will get the top notch candidates that the city of Boston deserves. If you are concerned about residency then keep the requirement that once hired, the officer must reside within Boston city limits. That's the proper solution, but I am sure it will never happen here in Boston.

Posted by: Delta784

The BPPA should use this to dump the residency requirement. Sounds like a pretty fair trade-off.

Posted by: Sgt Jack

Whole thing sounds like BS....they both go to the same academy...so one group didn't take a written test..I think they need to come up with a better argument...

Posted by: PBC FL Cop

Sounds like the same argument the State Police made years ago about their merger. Argue all you want, if the political heads stroke the pen, everyone becomes a Boston PO, like it or not.

Good luck

Posted by: Robert35

Here is the Argument. 1. They did not all go to the Same Academy. 2. They were hired for Security Guard Reasons (empty Bldgs). 3. Lets not forget our Veterans who should get the Preference. And to answer another Question the Preference Goes This Way 1, DAV, 2, Vets, 3, Survivors (Died In the Line of Duty) 4, Cadets but they have to pass the test and if a person has a 95 and they have a 94 they don't get the job until the 94's come up. Thats their Pref. The Final question is most of these Munis were passed over by the BPD for the Job.

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by PBC FL Cop

Sounds like the same argument the State Police made years ago about their merger. Argue all you want, if the political heads stroke the pen, everyone becomes a Boston PO, like it or not.

Good luck

True It all come down to the Mayor and if he wants Political problem for him. Cuts the Vets out of the picture who have been on the list. I think if they are on the list and have the marks then they get the job. But they should not cut anyone out who is on that list. They are not Real Police Officers and that is why the BPPA is going to court. The next thing let all the Campus police officers become State Police and see where that will take you.

Posted by: PBC FL Cop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert35

The next thing let all the Campus police officers become State Police and see where that will take you.

The Capital police seem to have pulled that one off

Posted by: SSPO#11

I am quite frankly sick of the Massaschusetts police union business. Nothing gets accomplished just one bitching at the other. EVERYONE is the state is working against the other rather than working together.

#11

Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

The Capital police seem to have pulled that one off

Exactly..put that in your sacred pipe and smoke it! Welcome to our world; not so funny when you're on the receiving end, BPD!

Posted by: smd6169

Quote:

Originally Posted by policelaborlaw.com

But Thomas J. Nee, president of the Boston Police Patrolmen's Association, says that the move is illegal and could jeopardize public safety by putting unqualified officers on the street.

''These candidates have not achieved the minimum entrance requirements that everyone else in the Boston Police Department has," Nee said. ''I'm certain the public wants the most qualified, competitvely tested individuals on the job.

''If they were of the same standards as Boston police, they would have been hired by now," Nee added.

Are you kidding me? How many Minorities, Veterans, 2nd Language speaking and Cadets who scored below the top 90th percentile have been hired over the years. The hiring system in this state is skued to favor those who score low because they have been granted preference. When a 70 (VET) outranks a 100 (CIVILIAN), there is something wrong there. You want to give preference, give it to those groups but keep it with in their respective test scores. If a VET scores a 70, place him at the top of the tied group of people scoring 70. If a VET scores a 96 place him at the top of all those who scored a 96 etc. This eliminates those who barely pass this test from leaping up the list and out ranking those who scored well.

Theres something to be said when a "preferred group" knows all he/she needs to do is just pass. Why try then...

I think Nee is trying to put on a hard face and will oppose this merger all he can and then agree to concede if the city eliminated the requirement that an officer must remain a Boston resident....

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

All I can say is I hope the Minis did not support Tommy Nee's picketing when the Democratic National Convention was here! If so what a slap in the face!

Posted by: RPD931

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt Jack

Whole thing sounds like BS....they both go to the same academy...so one group didn't take a written test..I think they need to come up with a better argument...

My thoughts exactly. I have only been in contact with a couple of Muni's but they were always freindly and professional. I'm sure, like in any PD, we can pick a few Boston PO's that shouldn't be on the job either. The guy with a pony tail and top 3 buttons undone and wrinkled shirt comes to mind.

Posted by: HousingCop

......and from todays 4/14/06 Boston GLOB

<H1>National union leader raps Nee</H1>

Municipal police comments chided

By Andrea Estes, Globe Staff | April 14, 2006

The president of the National Association of Government Employees demanded yesterday that Thomas J. Nee resign as the head of a national police union, lashing out at his opposition to the planned merger of the Municipal and Boston police forces.

''His arrogance and complete disregard for the interests of officers in fellow unions . . . is disrespectful and shameful," David J. Holway, president of NAGE, wrote in a statement. NAGE represents the Municipal Police Patrolmen's Union.

''If he's going to continue this vicious and very public attack on his brothers and sisters of the Municipal Police, he needs to step down from NAPO immediately," the statement said.

Nee is president of the Boston Police Patrolman's Association and the National Association of Police Organizations.

Nee's ''aggressive campaign" against a fellow union violates the bylaws of the Washington-based national police association, Holway said. Both the Boston and Municipal Police unions are members of NAPO.

On Wednesday, Nee said his union will fight the city's plan to dissolve the Municipal Police and move 46 officers to the Boston Police Department. The union is launching a radio ad campaign that will describe the officers as ''building security guards" unqualified to patrol city streets. The union's lawyers said they will file suit to try to stop the merger, which they say is illegal.

According to state law, Boston police officers must pass a civil service exam. Transferring the Municipal Police officers to the Boston Police Department would circumvent that law, Nee said.

Nee, who has led NAPO for four years, said he has no plans to resign

''Mr. Holway is accusing me of a personal attack where there is none," said Nee. ''I know the bylaws, and I have violated none. I'm not interested in what the man has to say. He has no credibility. My responsibilities are to the membership and the citizens of Boston. His position is ridiculous."

Mark McKeown, president of the Boston Municipal Police Patrolmen's Association, said he was appalled by Nee's comments about the Municipal Police.

''Our officers have stood shoulder to shoulder with the Boston police at crime scenes, as classmates, and at times burying a fellow officer. This union will not stoop to the level of the BPPA and disparage the men and women of the Boston Police Department," he said.

Now for your tounge lashing............
ROBERT35,
Before you open your big bazoo, check your facts. I know of at least 20 Municipal cops who have attended the Boston Police academy alongside BPD recruits. I wasn't aware that the Boston Police was in the business of training "building security guards" as a matter of record. They train POLICE OFFICERS, which the Municipal Police are.

They were hired to police & patrol all city owned property leased or controled by said city. I don't give a hoot where you work but these guys have done everything except investigate a rape or homicide. I'd stack their work record against any town within the 128 belt. They've been shot at, stabbed, beaten and at times been forced to use deadly force resulting in the death of a criminal suspect armed with a cocked & locked .45 cal gun.

Survivors (401A I believe) are ahead of any verterans, disabled or otherwise. Cadets can make up to 1/3 of any academy class BPD decides to put on. Just a 70 on the CS test and you're qualified. Check your facts next time.

One union bashing another union under the same umbrella doesn't seem like good brothership to me. I guess Nee forgot who some of their supporters were when they were carrying signs before the DNC. I guess it's not ".... what have you done for me lately?", it's ".....what can you do for me today?"

Since when does a union fight for people on a C.S. list who are not dues paying members and have not been given a conditional offer of employment? Sounds like a losing battle they are going up against. For once, I do not wish them well in their endeavours.

Posted by: j809

Municipal Police have civil service status so what the heck is BPPA talking about?

Posted by: SP880

I do not agree with the muni merger to Boston. But honestly the argument about civil service and going around the process is one that I won't agree with coming from BPPA. Have you taken a look at this class that's in there now? People who have scored 80's, people who live outside Boston, people with debts and past records. What about those who scored in the 90's and never received a post card regarding the application process? I know plenty of people who are qualified for the job, scored high on the test and never heard a thing. I know people in this current class who couldn't even handle being a security guard and now they are defending the city of boston.
From what I have seen from muni's most of the time is a poor attitude and bitterness towards other departments. I don't know if it's because most people don't have faith in their department so then they take it out on everyone else. Because they take over city buildings at night that means they should actually drive around and check them out, not sit in parks and sleep. I wouldn't want to have a full-time Boston Academy and have my partner to have another academy, nevermind little experience with Boston Police Situations. I don't believe a broken window or someone failing to sign into a building constitutes experience.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by j809

Municipal Police have civil service status so what the heck is BPPA talking about?

I believe they're referring to the muni's getting CS status without having to take the exam.

Posted by: smd6169

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP880

I do not agree with the muni merger to Boston. But honestly the argument about civil service and going around the process is one that I won't agree with coming from BPPA. Have you taken a look at this class that's in there now? People who have scored 80's, people who live outside Boston, people with debts and past records. What about those who scored in the 90's and never received a post card regarding the application process? I know plenty of people who are qualified for the job, scored high on the test and never heard a thing. I know people in this current class who couldn't even handle being a security guard and now they are defending the city of boston.
From what I have seen from muni's most of the time is a poor attitude and bitterness towards other departments. I don't know if it's because most people don't have faith in their department so then they take it out on everyone else. Because they take over city buildings at night that means they should actually drive around and check them out, not sit in parks and sleep. I wouldn't want to have a full-time Boston Academy and have my partner to have another academy, nevermind little experience with Boston Police Situations. I don't believe a broken window or someone failing to sign into a building constitutes experience.

I received a high mark on the exam, received a card and got through the BG. I am now waiting for the Medical, Psych etc.... basically I am waiting for the next class(s). I think it's ridiculous that because of my gender, race or language, that I was discriminated against and by-passed for someone else who is (and belive me when I say this) less qualified then I and many others. Excuse me for moving to Boston years ago and obtaining residence as required, sorry for going to college and obtaining an education, I apologize for only serving in the reserves and most of all with this last class, I deeply regret speaking english (and well if I might add).

Posted by: j809

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

I believe they're referring to the muni's getting CS status without having to take the exam.

Gotcha, then just make them take the test, if you pass it with at least a 70 you're on.

Posted by: BrickCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by j809

Gotcha, then just make them take the test, if you pass it with at least a 70 you're on.

I understand your viewpoint but respectfully, I can't see the need for it. From what I understand several Muni's have already lateral transferred to other city/town CS Departments- they clearly have CS status already. To make them take an exam is kind of pointless it would be nothing more than a symbolic dog and pony show.

Secondly, to the best of my knowledge no Met, Registry or Capitol police officers were required to take the MSP exam to be part of the merge.

Nee should be proactive in looking out for the BPPA's rights but his argument rings hollow when it comes to the cold hard facts. He can call them any disparaging remark he wants but the fact is the Munis go to the EXACT SAME full time police academy (many to the BPA) as every other police officer in the Commonwealth. Is Nee saying that every city/town cop in MA is the equivalent of a "building security" guard because they did not go through the BPA? This viewpoint defies logic and quite frankly is an insult to every cop in the state.

The Troopers who once were Mets bascially patrolled MDC roads, beaches and parks, the Troopers who were once the Capital Cops could have been considered "glorified Munis", the Troopers who once were RMV cops rarely dealt with non- m/v law enforcement issues. Nee cannot to point to the Muni's present function as a barometer of how they'll perform as BPD officers.

The only conclusion one can make is that Nee must believe that the scores of ex-Munis who got on BPD over the years underwent a magical transformation during the BPA. Apparently the current (civil service, full time academy trained) Muni's are incapable of obtaining this enlightenment.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickCop

The Troopers who once were Mets bascially patrolled MDC roads, beaches and parks, the Troopers who were once the Capital Cops could have been considered "glorified Munis", the Troopers who once were RMV cops rarely dealt with non- m/v law enforcement issues. Nee cannot to point to the Muni's present function as a barometer of how they'll perform as BPD officers.

I think that is a GREAT example. While many of the merged personnel performed and are performing admirably, a number of them were the worst Troopers/Police Officers you have ever seen. Most of those types are gone already, but there are stories that would make you choke.

Posted by: BrickCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

No doubt, I can imagine there were a more than a few horror shows but then again no department (or occupation) is immune to that.

OTOH I personally know two former Met Troopers who are well liked and respected among their SP peers. They both have admirable reputations in their respective MSP specialized unit assignments.

Posted by: HousingCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP880

From what I have seen from muni's most of the time is a poor attitude and bitterness towards other departments. I don't know if it's because most people don't have faith in their department so then they take it out on everyone else. Because they take over city buildings at night that means they should actually drive around and check them out, not sit in parks and sleep. I wouldn't want to have a full-time Boston Academy and have my partner to have another academy, nevermind little experience with Boston Police Situations. I don't believe a broken window or someone failing to sign into a building constitutes experience.

Gee, I spent 6 years there and the only bitterness I saw was when other departments tried to shit on us / them at in-service by claiming they weren't cops because they didn't have C.90 powers. A quick retort of "...well if you judge a cop by how many tickets they write in a given month, then you must be sad you aren't a Statie." Or unless they recieved some flack at the booking area for bringing in an unruly prisoner. That's the only time I ever had seen the claws come out.

As for one partner having a BPA and another going to an MPTC academy, what's the actual difference? Murder is still the same chapter & section in both academies last I checked. I guess the only guy you'll ever ride with must have attended the same exact academy as you did. Good luck finding him. Chances are, your partner may have attended a different academy at different times than you. Doen't mean that one guy knows more because he went somewhere else.

And by the way, if you sit in most parks in Boston and sleep, you're inviting a "Mulligan" on your ass. I never did it and neither do they. You can probably find better places to dig in. But of course, you with your vast street experience should know that.

As for getting back on track with this thread, these articles make the BPPA look bad. Two months ago, Nee was clammoring for new cops. Menino offers up 64 already trained academy graduates with street experience IN BOSTON and he fights these efforts. Double standard, don't you think?

Posted by: SP880

You've got the 10% just like any dept has that even their own officers don't like working with. Maybe it's just that munis have their certain reputation and they are always out to prove others wrong. As far as academies go, yeah the laws are the same, but the training somewhat differs because of a different approach to professionalism and discipline. BPD doesn't accept transfers from other towns and cities, yet now they are going to take Muni's. From what I hear from Muni's is that most don't want to go, from what I hear from Boston is that most don't want them to come over. If anything put them all through the Boston Academy, if they can't pass it then there are always desk jobs and dispatch jobs, having someone with police experience in dispatch is better than just civilians.

Posted by: BartA1

As a former employee who worked for the Boston Municipal Police for 8 years I feel I have to chime in on this. For The President of the BPPA to refer to the Academy trained police officers that work day in and day out for the City of Boston as "Building Security Guards" is a complete and total insult. A high percentage of the department went through the same academy that Mr. Nee graduated from. If the BPPA union leadership has a problem with the merge they should address it through the proper channels. Resorting to insults, and personal attacks against the rank and file employees who come to work every day and try to do their job is in my opinion a cheap shot, and Mr. Nee should be ashamed of himself.

Posted by: Macop

What a joke, cops bashing/fucking other cops. I cant wait to get out of this asshole state.

Posted by: no$.10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macop

What a joke, cops bashing/fucking other cops. I cant wait to get out of this asshole state.

Is that why you chose "Macop" as your moniker?

Posted by: 94c

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

The BPPA should use this to dump the residency requirement. Sounds like a pretty fair trade-off.

Good Point. Don't bash the BPPA just yet. They're a strong enough union to know that you just don't give up something without getting something else in return.

Posted by: Macop

Thats right

Posted by: HousingCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP880

You've got the 10% just like any dept has that even their own officers don't like working with. Maybe it's just that munis have their certain reputation and they are always out to prove others wrong. As far as academies go, yeah the laws are the same, but the training somewhat differs because of a different approach to professionalism and discipline. BPD doesn't accept transfers from other towns and cities, yet now they are going to take Muni's. From what I hear from Muni's is that most don't want to go, from what I hear from Boston is that most don't want them to come over. If anything put them all through the Boston Academy, if they can't pass it then there are always desk jobs and dispatch jobs, having someone with police experience in dispatch is better than just civilians.

So, "word on the street be...." that most Muni's want to stay where they are and some BPD cops agree with them and don't want them to come over? Is that what you are saying? You're almost as bad as CNN & NPR and the polls they solicit and publish about Bush & the Iraq War.

Boston Police took laterals up till the late 1960's. Plenty of ex Mets came to Boston & vice versa, depending on who had the better contract. Just because a practice is stopped doesn't mean it can't be reinstituted. As a matter of fact, the BPD Academy just backfilled 3 slots in the latest class, something that hasn't been done in the last 20 years or so. Does this change in protocol also mean that it's the wrong thing to do? Absolutely not in my opinion. In fact, it's one of the smartest things they've done in quite some time. The MSP Academy has done it with great results. Why let slots go unfilled because some fatbody can't hack it on the first day or week? Fill it up till a certain point & then stop backfilling and become one cohesive unit.

Yes, training & discipline & professionalism differs from academy to academy. Judging by what I've seen out there, most if not all academies can use a little brushing up on the subject. It's what you do out in the street that counts kid.

Posted by: BrickCop

Why should the Muni's have to go through the BPA? Does that not defeat the purpose of the merge. Let me get this straight, academy trained cops are all set to hit the streets but they need to go to the academy first?! To touch on my earlier point about the MSP merge; why weren't the Met, RMV and Capital cops required to go through the SPA as a condition of that merge?

Does not common sense factor into the equation at all here?

Although I am not a Muni I did go through the BPA many moons ago. It was a great academy and the Instructors were top notch. Having said that I have yet to see any difference in the quality of cops, or lack thereof of the cops who went to other academies. Sure BPD has traditionally made everyone go through the BPA but the merge is a ONE time issue, it's apples and oranges.

As far as the observation that the BPA is somehow different- I don't know what the hell people are talking about. Sure every Instructor has his own teaching style but outside of city ordinances specific to the city and rules and regs specific to the BPD- there is no meaningful difference. They don't teach you Nuclear launch codes. Do the Munis already know the ordinances and the regs since they fall under BPD? An in- service session would take care of it if not.

It appears ego and superiority complexes are the REAL issue here. The BPPA should protest that it is a change of working conditions or past practice (or whatever). I just can't understand how the disparaging and inaccurate comments will be productive.

Whenever I read about this "controversy" I cannot help but be reminded of something one of my BPA Instructors (Jim Moore) once said- defense lawyers blow smoke when they can't argue the facts.

Nee may not be an attorney but this issue is about to go to 4 alarms.

Posted by: Irish Wampanoag

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP880

I have seen and known some Boston cops and some of them are far from professional let alone disciplined.

Posted by: 48Weeks

Any good Cop knows that which academy you attend has no bearing on what type of Cop you will be. Experiences are gained on the street, not in the basic police academy. The train of thought that a good BPD officer must have attended the BPD academy is ridiculous and stupid. Any real Cops out there with experience will agree with me. You either have "people skills" or you do not. You don't suddenly learn them at an academy.

Posted by: SP880

As far as BPD officers not being professional or disciplined, every department has its share of officers that aren't disciplined from Fed agencies to private security. If it were a lateral transfer it wouldn't neccessarily be a muni to boston. Yeah they are both police, but Boston is more of a full-service department. If they are going to take a lateral, then maybe it should be from a dept that does everything from ch90 to arrests, etc.. Muni's may cover it in the academy, but after not using it in the field, they probably could use a repeat of the training.
Regarding what people are saying "housingcop" I was merely stating that just because the city wants them to merge doesn't mean that everyone wants to merge, regardless of what dept they work for.
It's MA so these issues will always cause controversy. So if they take Muni's then who's next housing/school police or maybe even private specials. Housing is in the same category as muni's, schools probably have the toughest job in the city, but aren't even armed.

Posted by: j809

Quote:

f they are going to take a lateral, then maybe it should be from a dept that does everything from ch90 to arrests, etc.

Since when does BPD do CH90 with the exception of a few traffic unit guys? Merge them in and put them with an FTO and then send them out to work like everyone else.

Posted by: Mitpo62

Fight the merger? Are we surprised?

Posted by: firefighter39

how does someone get hired as a Muni, Housing or School? Does the city run a test similar to Civil Service, or is it just an application?

And, what is this job I saw posted on the city web site for "security Officer" is this a muni??

http://www.cityofboston.gov/jobs/job.asp?ID=2281

It is interesting to note that part of the description says "arresting violators...etc....)

Posted by: SP880

Most BPD won't do c90 stops because there is a traffic enforcement unit, and there are usually more important things to respond to given the low numbers. Whether or not this merger happens, still remains to be seen, but since they've been talking about it for years and it still hasn't happened. If they are going to merge, then bring the good muni's to Boston, the ones who want to work and be productive. As far as the lazy ones who are a liability (which we all know every dept has those) I heard that naratoone is hiring

Posted by: HousingCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP880

Most BPD won't do c90 stops because there is a traffic enforcement unit, and there are usually more important things to respond to given the low numbers. Whether or not this merger happens, still remains to be seen, but since they've been talking about it for years and it still hasn't happened. If they are going to merge, then bring the good muni's to Boston, the ones who want to work and be productive. As far as the lazy ones who are a liability (which we all know every dept has those) I heard that naratoone is hiring

Dude, you're a tool, plain & simple. The worst Muni / Housing / School cop makes a mediocre Boston cop anyday. Held to a higher standard & more easily fired due to the fact that they are under 400A, and can have their pistol permit pulled at any time for a myraid of different reasons. A LTC is required for the job and if they can somehow wrestle it away from them, you'll be lining up at the soup kitchen with your family.

You basically have to be driving upside down to be pulled over in Boston. C.90 is like writing a parking ticket. All the chapters & sections are written on the backside of the book. I've written them for drug offenses and it's not too hard to figure it out.

You make it sound as if Boston Municipal cops don't do actual "Police work" Check the stats they put out. Every place they patrol is either near or directly adjacent to a hot spot. Until you've walked a mile in their shoes (I have) don't go posting ridiculous statements. HC

Posted by: SP880

You have your opinion, I have mine. I didn't say that they don't do police work, but a special officer is different than a BPD officer. Don't worry about my experience and as you say, "not walking a mile in their shoes". Just from these posts, I'm guessing you're part of the 10%, good luck to you and be safe

Posted by: HousingCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP880

You have your opinion, I have mine. I didn't say that they don't do police work, but a special officer is different than a BPD officer. Don't worry about my experience and as you say, "not walking a mile in their shoes". Just from these posts, I'm guessing you're part of the 10%, good luck to you and be safe

Yup. opinions are like a$$#oles, everybody's got one & they all stink. Especially yours.

No difference a'tall. Same shitbirds, same charges, same judges, same jailcell. A real boatload of differences........ in your OPINION

of course.

Anybody smell what I do in here? Give this kid a shovel & some boots please.

Posted by: Macop

Well said Housingcop.

Posted by: Robert35

This is in response to my tounge lashing by housing cop. The BPPA intends to fight this merger with all of its resources. You are falling into the Trap of doing away with Civil Service rights if they do away with these rights then where are you going to go to fight if you’re a small dept with say 20 officers your budget in your union will go broke. The Civil Service rights are ours not to give away. Lets break this down The BPPA filed a grievance on the rights of the Munis for unfair labor practices charges against the City of Boston in the early 90’s and after winning in court numerous times, they are now in the damages phase of litigation. If you remember the city cut 14 potential officers out of its present class but since added 7 of them because of flunk outs etc… In 1998 the then president of IBPO and the personnel director of HRD were dining together and socializing. According to a disposition agreement on file with the State ethics commission Case No 671 Dated 12/3/02 Ken Lyons then president of NAGE the parent union of International brotherhood of police officers which represented the Municipal police had 20 lunch meetings at Anthony’s Pier 4 with Jim Hartnett Personal Administrator of HRD between January 1998 and July 2001 Lyons always paid for these lunches through the NAGE account. There were additional social events that were also brought up. Hartnett was fined 2500.00 and resigned his position for the violations. The BPPA has filed and wants to see the paperwork in 1998 a home rule petition Chapter 282 that was intended to provide relief to many provisionally hired city employees who were serving in civil service positions for which no examinations had been given for many years, such as many secretarial and administrative positions. The Municipals took advantage of their supposed permanent civil service status by making a number of lateral transfers (approximately 12) to civil service police depts. To date none to BPD. Any Muni hired after 1998 were not granted this right. If the Boston Police had a Test and they always did then this should not have been applied to the Munis. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. The BPPA is still waiting for a response for the file date in Feb of this year.

Posted by: smd6169

Hopefully this issue take many month's or even years to work itself out so BPD can countinu to hire off the 2005 list.

Posted by: soxrock75

Quote:

Originally Posted by smd6169

Hopefully this issue take many month's or even years to work itself out so BPD can countinu to hire off the 2005 list.

Even if the Muni's are allowed to transferred in, the BPD is still short a few hundred officers. They should be hiring more off this current list. Hopefully the city will be approving money in the FY2007 (begins July 1, 2006) budget for some new classes.

Posted by: Robert35

Thats what we want hire off the List and get us some help. The list is there don't bypass it a lot of people have been waiting along time.

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP880

Wrong on this one most everyone on the force has the V book so they all do C90 violations if you add up the stations you would see that the avg station does over 1500 M/V a month. the Tango Cars are traffic enforment they do Radar, Lidar etc and they do most of the violations which is true but the officers do something like 4 to 5 movers a day on most shifts. The merger should not happen because there is a present Civil Service list and it should not be by-passed. Cut Civil Service out and see what your rights are when something happens to you.

Posted by: Patrick258

They do 4 to 5 movers a day????? Please get a grip,,,,,,,,,, try like 4 to 5 a month....

Posted by: SP880

I love how words keep getting twisted, I never said that they don't do stop, I said most won't do stops. Given that numbers are down and you're in major city where gunfire has been on the rise over the past year, rolling through a stop sign isn't a major concern. As for Ghostbusters/Empty building police, let them become BPD officers the ways that the rest made it, Civil Service Scores, Political connections and Cadet program. I understand the bitterness housing cop, I guess if everyone was talking about your department this way, then I'd get down on myself too. With all the depts in Boston rather than being part of the solution, I think they are more so part of the problem. I remember hearing that school police was trying to get into BPPA, so maybe a full city merger is closer than we think. HA HA HA Come to think of it, I've never had a problem with school police trying to step on my toes or take over situations. Like I said in a previous post, they seem to have the toughest job in the city, dealing with those kids. I have friends on the BPD school unit and they share info back and forth and have a great relationship. We could always do like NYPD and have seperate units, but the same dept.

Posted by: HousingCop

Robert35,
Good points, well taken. Especially when it's almost verbatim from the newest issue of the Pax Centurion. That bastion of freedom that the BPPA puts out monthly.
Prior to 1997 the Municipal Police were in the Public Facilities Dept. A non-civil service department. Shortly afterwards, they were transferred to the Property Management Dept, a CS dept. Then in 1998, all city employees were awarded permanent CS tenure if they were working in grade for 1 year prior in a department that has CS status such as Parks & Rec, Community Schools, etc.....
In 1994 the Municipal Police were detailed over to the Boston Housing Authority to augment them. The BPD justly filed a ULP & suit and is awaiting judgement on monetary damages as we write. This went on for 10 years and ended in Sept of 2004. The Muni's were offered the title "Park Police" and other titles they thought they were not in their job description. They then used the BPPA's own words & actions to appeal to civil that their rightful designation be Police Officer which was granted.
If the BPPA has a bitch, it's with the person who transferred them to a CS department and the people within their own union. The Muni's used the BPPA arguments as ammunition to get CS PO status. Good for them & their union. Rightfully deserved by them and I applaud their efforts.
As for Kenny Lyons and Hartnett having lunch, everybody is making it into a big "Who Killed Kennedy" like conspiracy. All that's missing is a rifle & book depository.

Posted by: firefighter39

quick question on retirement, are they group 1 or group 4 employees for retirement board purposes

Posted by: HousingCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP880

As for Ghostbusters/Empty building police, let them become BPD officers the ways that the rest made it, Civil Service Scores, Political connections and Cadet program. I understand the bitterness housing cop, I guess if everyone was talking about your department this way, then I'd get down on myself too. With all the depts in Boston rather than being part of the solution, I think they are more so part of the problem. I remember hearing that school police was trying to get into BPPA, so maybe a full city merger is closer than we think. HA HA HA Come to think of it, I've never had a problem with school police trying to step on my toes or take over situations.

Goes to show how much of an actual TOOL you really are. Opps, did I write that again? I meant BUFFOON. I guess you don't think this Master Merge Plan has been hatched by the Muni union, do you? It's a City Hall powerplay. And we all know the final outcome, don't we?

I really am not bitter. I am hoping the city gets the best qualified candidates they can. Actual trained Boston Municipal Police officers who have done the job and know the city just like any other cop. Beats having some rube come in from Iowa who gassed airplanes and gets veterans status and knows nothing about the city or its inhabitants.

I wouldn't see why the Boston School Police would meddle in your affairs. Unless your affairs happen to bring you in or about Boston School Department property. Your rapier wit slays me my friend. Nicks Comedy Stop Amateur Night is still Wednesday, 7PM at Faneuil Hall. HA HA HA.

Posted by: BrickCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by firefighter39

quick question on retirement, are they group 1 or group 4 employees for retirement board purposes

BPD, Muni's and Housing are all Group 4...I'm not sure about the School Police (?)

Posted by: RPD931

I don't see what the big deal is here.

As far as Civil Service status goes that is moot. If a non-civil service town changes to civil service then the current Officers just take an exam. If they pass, viola! they have civil service status and can go anywhere.

Last I knew Muni's went through the BPD academy. And as it currently stands, when an Officer gets hired by BPD, they have to go through BPD academy again.

Gee, I wonder why boston has financial issues. WTF?

They're trained, experienced and have status then what's the problem. The worst Muni Officer can't be any worse than a few of those BPD guys.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP880

As for Ghostbusters/Empty building police, let them become BPD officers the ways that the rest made it, Civil Service Scores, Political connections and Cadet program.

You're forgetting affirmative action and consent decrees, so in actuality, the BPD hasn't been hiring the most qualified candidates, because political horsepower and skin pigmentation were major hiring factors for many years.

As I've mentioned, I was a BHA cop for almost six years, and while the great majority of BPD guys were/are awesome, I saw my fair share that I wouldn't trust with sharp scissors, as with every law enforcement agency. The BPPA really can't claim with a straight face that merging the academy-trained muni's is going to poison their gene pool.

Although I left before the muni's started working with housing, I did interact with them quite a bit. Every academy-trained muni I saw was squared-away, and I never felt uncomfortable having them back me up.

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickCop

BPD, Muni's and Housing are all Group 4...I'm not sure about the School Police (?)

Housing are not Civil Service and not Group 4. The funding for them stop in Sept unless they get funding again from the Feds.

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by HousingCop

Robert35,
Good points, well taken. Especially when it's almost verbatim from the newest issue of the Pax Centurion. That bastion of freedom that the BPPA puts out monthly.
Prior to 1997 the Municipal Police were in the Public Facilities Dept. A non-civil service department. Shortly afterwards, they were transferred to the Property Management Dept, a CS dept. Then in 1998, all city employees were awarded permanent CS tenure if they were working in grade for 1 year prior in a department that has CS status such as Parks & Rec, Community Schools, etc.....
In 1994 the Municipal Police were detailed over to the Boston Housing Authority to augment them. The BPD justly filed a ULP & suit and is awaiting judgement on monetary damages as we write. This went on for 10 years and ended in Sept of 2004. The Muni's were offered the title "Park Police" and other titles they thought they were not in their job description. They then used the BPPA's own words & actions to appeal to civil that their rightful designation be Police Officer which was granted.
If the BPPA has a bitch, it's with the person who transferred them to a CS department and the people within their own union. The Muni's used the BPPA arguments as ammunition to get CS PO status. Good for them & their union. Rightfully deserved by them and I applaud their efforts.
As for Kenny Lyons and Hartnett having lunch, everybody is making it into a big "Who Killed Kennedy" like conspiracy. All that's missing is a rifle & book depository.

They were back doored into Civil Service as the rule reads " you can get civil service status is NO Civil service test is in use, so the BPPA wants to see how this Illegal action got this far. NO answer from HRD as of this posting. Next up AG action....

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick258

They do 4 to 5 movers a day????? Please get a grip,,,,,,,,,, try like 4 to 5 a month....

go look at the Stats and you will see who is right. Some don't write a one but the stats don't lie... The Automan at all the Districts has the numbers.

Posted by: HousingCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert35

Housing are not Civil Service and not Group 4. The funding for them stop in Sept unless they get funding again from the Feds.

Robert35,
Check your crystal ball once again bud. Boston Housing Police are Group 4 employees as of 4 years ago. The administration has seen fit to stop appealing it after the 5th time losing in a row and filing a day late with C.R.A.B.
BHA Police always have had Civil Service tenure after 5 years of service. All the rights & appeals as any other C.S. employee in the commonwealth but are not appointed under C.31 Police C.S.
As for funding, the Feds stopped the DEP (Drug Elimination Program) grants & that spigot got shut off 3 years ago. They were then thrown back into the general fund which keeps getting smaller & smaller. Kind of like our numbers.......
Any other questions you'd like asked or answered, just ask HC, the keeper of the flame & magician extrordinaire.

Posted by: BrickCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert35

Good luck trying to unring that bell. Do you honestly think the AG is going to undue the CS and retroactively nullify the 12+ laterals of the Munis who went on to other CS departments?

The BPPA has delusions of grandeur if they think they HRD (a State entity) will crumble on the issue because the BPPA is crying "no fair". Fairness is the first casualty of politics but its not as if the BPPA are novices in this regard. The Munis like the BPPA used politics (Lobbyists) to get what they wanted, that's no surprise in this State, is it? The whole issue has undoubtedly already been pored over by the entire HRD Legal Department, it's not as if there's this one guy at HRD who is looking the other way.

The BPPA should use this issue as leverage to rid themselves on the residency anchor IMO. The merge is a ONE time issue like it was with the MSP, it is not case law as it were, for abolishing the CS exam from now on.

BTW you are mistaken, the BHA police do indeed have Group 4 or are you confusing CS status w/Group 4 retirement status? There are many non CS PDs in MA and they fall under Group 4, right?

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert35

Housing are not Civil Service and not Group 4. The funding for them stop in Sept unless they get funding again from the Feds.

There's three wrong statements for the price of one. If you're going to pontificate on an issue, at least know what you're talking about.

Posted by: dcs2244

If the powers that be want the merger to happen, it will happen. It has nothing to do with tests or civil circus. The state, mets, registry and capitol departments were merged...and the state was an entirely different, separate entity from CS.

So suck it up...open the champaign and celebrate the impending merger...try to make the best of it. You'll get some good people...and some turds. But then, you've already got some good people...and some turds. Believe me, nothing will change...life goes on.

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

There's three wrong statements for the price of one. If you're going to pontificate on an issue, at least know what you're talking about.

"Wrong" just check the Facts. Not Civil Service they get their money from the Federal Gov which by the way will stop it in September Read up on it.

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickCop

True, But the thing that gets everyone's attention is They all want to do away with Civil Service and if they do we will all pay for it in the long run. Most Unions don't have the $$ to go to court to turn over their trampled rights. The Civil Service gives them that right and what does it cost. Zero to go in front of them. Thats what gets the Merger as being wrong. If the Mayor wants it, it will happen it does not hurt that the Nephew on the munis is related to the the Big Cheese on the BPD.

Posted by: BrickCop

Robert help me understand, how does a one time merge permanently affect your rights under CS in the long run?

I suppose the Troopers could've used this same argument before their merge yet all "post- merge" Troopers have been appointed exactly in the same manner as the "pre- merge" Troopers. Why would the BPD situation be any different?

Another question, what if BPD take the Muni's as laterals and don't call it a merge? It's evident that the Munis have the CS status to do so already. I realize that BPD has never accepted laterals before but what legal argument (with any chance of success) can be made to prohibit it in the future?

Lastly, would an aggrieved Milton resident/candidate who took the CS exam have a legitimate case if the MPD decided to hire a CS lateral transfer instead hiring off the CS list? Would the Milton police officers themselves have a grievance? I'm not trying to be a smart ass with these hypothetical queries, I'm just asking you to look at the issue objectively.

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickCop

Robert help me understand, how does a one time merge permanently affect your rights under CS in the long run?

I suppose the Troopers could've used this same argument before their merge yet all "post- merge" Troopers have been appointed exactly in the same manner as the "pre- merge" Troopers. Why would the BPD situation be any different?

Another question, what if BPD take the Muni's as laterals and don't call it a merge? It's evident that the Munis have the CS status to do so already. I realize that BPD has never accepted laterals before but what legal argument (with any chance of success) can be made to prohibit it in the future?

Lastly, would an aggrieved Milton resident/candidate who took the CS exam have a legitimate case if the MPD decided to hire a CS lateral transfer instead hiring off the CS list? Would the Milton police officers themselves have a grievance? I'm not trying to be a smart ass with these hypothetical queries, I'm just asking you to look at the issue objectively.

Again good Arguments all. The thing is you don't give up anything for nothing. Could you say a Muni Sgt or Lt. should come over at the same rank, I don't think so they never took a test to get that rank either. Have to cover all the bases and I think we have to stand up for it. The BPPA won this case for the Munis patroling the projects and they lost it (City).

Posted by: BrickCop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert35

"Wrong" just check the Facts. Not Civil Service they get their money from the Federal Gov which by the way will stop it in September Read up on it.

MGL Chapter 121 gives all Housing Authority employees (MA) Civil Service tenure (not to be confused w/status) after five consecutive years of employment. They cannot lateral but have the same CS job protections from disciplinary action.

As HC pointed out the Fed money already ran out 3 years ago after Washington eliminated the DEP grant. The BHA PD is funded under the regular BHA operating budget for now, it's no secret that may change.

BTW the Muni issue aside, does the BPPA have a beef with the BHA cops too?

Posted by: HousingCop

Quote:

If the Mayor wants it, it will happen it does not hurt that the Nephew on the munis is related to the the Big Cheese on the BPD.

Again, WRONG. Who does your fact checking?

If I am not mistaken, wouldn't all the "Laterals" be entry level Police Officer positions? Only guy I ever heard of lateraling with the rank of Sgt was from a MetroWest suburb to the T Police and they made him a Deputy Superintendant before the sun set.

As I stated before we have Civil Service tenure. Should I type slower for you to comprehend this fact? Same rights as other C.S. employees in disciplinary & termination situations.

The BPPA did in fact win their argument that the disbandment of Team Police in 1992 and then bringing in the Municipal Police in 1994 did affect them. Now it's up to somebody to decide if there will be monetary damages. Range is anywhere from pennies to 20+ million dollars. Yeah, like Menino will ever cough up that much dough!!!! Remember, they have lawyers too and as they say, "You can't fight city hall". Good luck trying though. HC

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert35

"Wrong" just check the Facts. Not Civil Service they get their money from the Federal Gov which by the way will stop it in September Read up on it.

You check your facts. I used to be vice-president of their union, and whenever disciplinary action was taken against someone, their rights of CIVIL SERVICE appeal were enclosed. I suppose they did this because they thought it might make interesting reading? As HC said, housing cops get civil service tenure after 5 years.

As for the funding, I've been hearing that song & dance since I was first hired by them almost 18 years ago. The boy who cried wolf....

BTW...the BHA Police were created by a Federal court order, because BPD wasn't doing their job, and the residents filed suit. So, if you don't like them, take it up with your bretheren from the 1970's.

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickCop

The BPPA does not have any beef with The BHA cops. They have been doing a great job and have the backing to go with it. Most of the guys would take them First because most of them have been working in the Trenches for years. 209a, A&B, Gun callls etc... They get our backing.

Posted by: HousingCop

Quote:

Good to know you have no beef with the Housing cops. What the BPPA says today is not necessarially what they will print tomorrow. But I'll have to disagree on the fact that the Municipal Police do not do gun calls, 209A's etc.....
Just last night a couple of your brain surgeons commented on channel 5 about why the Muni's were going lights & siren down Tremont St. One boob commented they were going to Doughboys because the BPD patches were on sale while another joker called them "scabs" and how they were going to take jobs away. Then your civilian dispatcher then said he would call the "Moonies" to see what they have going. Professionalism at it's highest water mark for your guys I see.

After an update, your dispatcher told these dolts from District 4 that they were chasing a suspect from the Frog Pond on Boston Common who had pointed a gun at someone and then fled and dropped the weapon. Weapon was recovered and a foot chase was ensuing as I almost turned off the radio in disgust at the "professionalism" displayed by your guys. Your guys then seemed to make an about face and were then asking which way the suspect was headed......

Ever do a Carribean Festival detail or any type of work in Franklin Park on any given day during the good weather? I have, and I assure you that there is plenty of gun calls and 209A's abound. So to say that they don't do this type of police work is an insult to the Boston Municipal Police and it only makes you look MORE foolish than you really are in the eyes of everybody on this board.

I have served in the trenches on both of these jobs and I can assure you that the BMP are top notch Police Officers.

Posted by: Robert35

Quote:

Originally Posted by HousingCop

You know at one time and Now I don't remember when I was taken to looking into some of your comments. But this one and I will say it again I am through with People and I do mean people who have no idea what our job is. I have been on the Job over 20 years and have been in the trenches on both ends of the gun. But with comments like this you can take them with you I will not response to You again.

Posted by: bspd103

HousingCop, good call on that from last night, Municipal had a great response to the call from the Boston Park Rangers and they worked out great. They worked together just like all agencies should work together, to get the job done. Hopefully the courts will do their job and make sure that those scumbags will do some time in the pokey. With the amount of weapons that were taken in that, a tragedy could have been avoided.

Posted by: HousingCop

Quote:

Thanks for doing me the favor of not looking for my posts again. It will be a great relief for me. Phew!! Also a bit of English grammatical work is in order. You are starting to write like somebody talks who I know from Readville!

As for your avatar, you should photoshop it to make it the thinnest blue line possible because I know that's where you stand on this issue.

I don't know how "YOUR" job differs from any other cop in this state who wears blue. You seem to think that once one of "YOUR" bad guys crossed the bridge into Quincy, Milton, Chelsea or Newton, they somehow become more docile and less of a threat to the public at large.

"The First In The Nation".... Change a couple of words on there. You know which ones I mean.

Posted by: dcs2244

No doubt Robert35 has been in the trenches...just not the english language ones...

Apparently feather-bedding and favoritism are alive and well in Bostoon. How the heck does one get on the job without a basic command of the english language? Unless one took the test in another language.

Bob, what is your primary language? It obviously is not english.

Posted by: RPD931

Boston PD has good cops, bad cops and some outrite embarrassments. I understand is a huge police department, but I certainly wouldn't rank it as the best. I have personally seen BPD NOT respond to calls as well as take their sweet little time getting there also. "First in the Nation", "Last in service quality"... Like I said, there ARE alot of good guys there, but their whole system is F'd up!

MSP - At least you can RELY on them. These guys/girls can be MILES away and they are there when you need them.

Posted by: s1w

BPD system is F'd up? How?

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