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Main Page Texas drops boxing drill for state troopers after recruit's death
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: kwflatbed

The Associated Press

AUSTIN, Texas- The Texas Department of Public Safety said it will no longer train police officers with a boxing drill that resulted in a recruit's death last year.

The department suspended full-contact fighting after Jimmy Ray Carty Jr. died of head injuries last May. He was knocked to the ground at least twice by blows to the head.

"We are confident we will find ways to train them that will keep them safe and keep the people of the state of Texas safe," department spokeswoman Tela Mange said Wednesday.

The agency used the drill for at least 30 years and had argued it was useful training for officers who must be prepared to fight on the streets.

But consultants hired by the department after Carty's death recommended the drill be eliminated because it caused too many head injuries and did not involve realistic situations.

The department also banned all other exercises that involve hitting or other hard contact between trainees.

"They made the right choice," said Carty's widow, Christy Carty, who on Wednesday sued over her husband's death, seeking unspecified damages and an end to the fighting drill.

Posted by: mikemac64

There are a lot of people out there who have never been punched or hit at all. I would hate to have a Police Officer's first time getting punched by someone be on the side of the road somewhere. The poor kid won't know how to react.

It's a shame this recruit died. But, properly supervised, this training is invaluable

I think they should bring boxing to the Massachusetts municipal acadmies.

Posted by: lofu

I agree wholeheartedly Mac. Being a recent graduate of an MPOC, I think boxing should be included. My main reason is the one you have already stated, also boxing is a great aerobic (sp?) workout.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemac64

I think they should bring boxing to the Massachusetts municipal acadmies.

Boxing is rather pointless....do you really think the bad guys are going to honor the "no low blows" rule? Put on red suits and beat the hell out of each other, that's more appropriate.

Posted by: ponyboy

I wouldn't say it's pointless,like somebody else said if you've never been hit in the face you don't know how you will react. Better to experience it in training then on the street.

Posted by: quality617

The most useful aspect of DT during my academy was "The Two Minute Drill".

We put on the headgear, the gloves, the cup and the mouth protector, and had to 'defend' ourselves in the ring for two minutes against either a professional boxer or a martial artist.

We all took quite a beating, myself included. At the time it was terrifying, but in retrospect it was positively priceless training.

I don't think boxing should be brought to the academies, but this certainly should.

Posted by: Killjoy

The MSP suspended boxing for a while, but has done it successfully the last 4 classes...I think it's invaluable training...in our soft society many people have never been in a fight or even been hit. The MSP also does extensive amounts of red-suit training, much to chagrin of its poor DT instructors.

Posted by: Dane

Quote:

Boxing is rather pointless

So say you. You apparently don't understand how it can be successfully integrated into a full DT program. Ponyboy, Quality and Killjoy are right on. The object isn't necessarily to school the recruits in the finer points of the sweet science. Not everyone entering a police academy has engaged in fisticuffs in their lifetime. These people might not understand that you can be punched in the head, hard, and still get up and fight through it. Until you've done it, you just don't know if you're going to handle it well or fold up like a cheap lawn chair and die on the side of some desolate highway.

I've worked in the red suit and had several bouts in the ring and they are both valuable tools. The point of boxing is NOT to teach recruits to square off with an opponent and observe the Marquess of Queensberry's Rules at all times. That shit will get you killed. Wearing the red suit left me with the feeling of being a little too insulated. Almost like wearing full hockey gear. Boxing provides more of a feeling of exposure and vulnerability. You tend to work a little harder at protecting yourself knowing that you're not wearing a head to toe foam suit.

*BAM* Hey! Who took the picture?

Posted by: MSP75

If it is your first time, it is better to see that big flash of light and the dazzle feeling on the gym floor, after being hit in the head, than on the road. Many have only been in a fight in their virtual Xbox world.

Posted by: tarc

I feel this is a useful drill to not only teach a person to fight, but also how to fight back when one is fighting you. Remember, Texas is a very vast state and as I have pointed out in a previous post, those DPS Troopers can be placed in far west Texas or down in the valley by the Mexican border and your only back-up is 1-2 hours away. You better be able to fight if the shi* hits the fan, or we'll be watching your death on video during some training class. I give those guys all the respect in the world for wanting to do that. I prefer the city myself.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dane

Wearing the red suit left me with the feeling of being a little too insulated. Almost like wearing full hockey gear. Boxing provides more of a feeling of exposure and vulnerability. You tend to work a little harder at protecting yourself knowing that you're not wearing a head to toe foam suit.

Sorry, but I used to box, and I don't see its relevance to police work. I have yet to have a suspect on the street square-off and engage me in the "sweet science". It's always a brutal brawl, involving fists, elbows, knees, feet, teeth, headbutts, etc.

I think it would be far more useful to train as we're going to fight on the street, no holds-barred, which for safety reasons means the red suit. I would have no problem with each recruit having to take a boxing-gloved fist to the kisser, just so they know what to expect, but formal boxing matches make no sense to me.

Posted by: Se7en

Forget boxing, just have training similar to the U.F.C. Unfortunately, there are a few people who enter the academy that can't take a punch or as it has already been stated never been in a fight. Whether its "redman", boxing or even grappling, it should be part of the training. I'm tired of sackless wonders wanting to get off the street, because they can't handle themselves when the shit hits the fan.

Posted by: texdep

Having gone through a Texas academy let me clarify that to call the drill "boxing" is quite generous. It was much more in line with Delta784 thoughts that is a Free for All with boxing gloves.

Another fine exercise was the "baton wrestle" - two recruits started on their knees with both hands on a single baton. Winner was who ended up with the baton. Only rule or restriction was that the "match" had to last at least 45seconds.

Posted by: MARINECOP

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemac64

There are a lot of people out there who have never been punched or hit at all. I would hate to have a Police Officer's first time getting punched by someone be on the side of the road somewhere. The poor kid won't know how to react.

It's a shame this recruit died. But, properly supervised, this training is invaluable

I think they should bring boxing to the Massachusetts municipal acadmies.

Your 100% correct mikemac. I had people in my class that stated they had never been in a fist fight before. WTF????? Why would anyone ever go into this job field when physical confrontation is inevitable. Boxing and ground fighting should be part of all police academies nation wide.

Posted by: MARINECOP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

With boxing you learn where and how to properly throw a punch. Also, proper stances with body movement in order to avoid from getting hit. I feel that this is essential to any stand up confrontation, which are just basics in fighting. Combine that with a good ground game and you have a well rounded fighter. As for UFC/MMA training, it will never happen for police work. Rear naked chokes, arm bars, ankle locks, ect. eventually something or someone will get broken or killed and the politicians can't have us breaking the body parts of criminals. If we did that then they couldn't got back to committing more crimes. The best bet for any officer, the ones with the " I will survive " mentality is to learn the stuff on your own time. I would highly recommend http://sammyfranco.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc CFA is the best street fighting training that I have ever seen. I have many of their DVD's, but be advised it is not for the weak at heart or mind.

Posted by: GARDA

Quote:

Originally Posted by MARINECOP

How about adding this question to the police applicant's questionnaire/interview:
"Have you ever tasted your own blood?"

If they answer 'yes', you can bet on this,... the applicant has been in a few physical scraps in their lifetime, or they are undoubtedly a card carrying vampire.

Either way, your selection process will be credited with identifying the weak, or the undead, before a hiring disaster looms on the horizon.

Posted by: Dane

Quote:

I have yet to have a suspect on the street square-off and engage me in the "sweet science".

No shit? You don't read so well.

Posted by: evidence

Quote:

Originally Posted by quality617

The most useful aspect of DT during my academy was "The Two Minute Drill".

We put on the headgear, the gloves, the cup and the mouth protector, and had to 'defend' ourselves in the ring for two minutes against either a professional boxer or a martial artist.

We all took quite a beating, myself included. At the time it was terrifying, but in retrospect it was positively priceless training.

I don't think boxing should be brought to the academies, but this certainly should.

The Boston Police Academy still utilizes the two minute drill. Also, on OC day, after recruits are sprayed they are attacked by 3 instructors in red man gear and have to defend themselves and their weapons.

Posted by: PearlOnyx

MarineCop,

Aside from the threat of injuries, it's simply unrealistic to expect recruits to learn many of the techniques used in Mixed Martial Arts, with any real level of skill. Most of the techniques you mentioned are components of Jiu Jitsu, which is very technical and requires hours and hours of repetition to master. I train in Jiu Jitsu myself, and recently started training in Muay Thai. To ask recruits to learn these techniques during a basic academy, and use them effectivley seems pretty unrealistic.

I just went through DT in the academy I'm attending down south, and we covered 99 different but fairly simple, techniques (No Boxing) and I feel that the training we received would be suffieicent to teach someone who is inexperienced in fighting, martial arts, etc.

As far as the comment regarding someone having their first time being hit on the road, I think that's very true. I'm not sure how we can go about changing that though.

Posted by: Bene_G

I agree with many posters that some sort of physical confrontation training is invaluable. I was USAF, so naturally I didn't have any fighting/self defense skills taught to me in Basic. I rectified that by taking martial arts on my own time.

I was suprised how badly upset I was when I first got tested in self defense. All my adrenaline started racing when my teacher got behind me and grabbed my neck. I literally forgot everything we had trained in. I had to have remedial training, because I blanked so badly.

Although I wasn't a police officer in the military, the training ended up (imho) saving my life. I'm female, and years later a man attacked me. To this day I don't know if he was going to beat me, rape me, or both...but I didn't have to find out, since I successfully fought him off. I'd recommend self defense (at least!) for all women (as well as those who will use these skills in a professional position.)

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