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Homicide Investigations

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Posted by: 48Weeks

Why is it that only Boston and Springfield (there could be more, but I don't believe so) investigate homicides without State Police assistance? This baffles me...... Don't local cops deal with more serious crimes on a daily basis than a Trooper does? One would think that a local Cop in Lowell, Lawrence, Quincy etc would have a lot more experience than a Trooper who works mainly on our highways. Don't take this as a knock on Troopers, but I just don't understand why departments who have their own relatively large detective bureaus need a Trooper's help. Any thoughts?


Posted by: texdep

Does it make more sense to you when you realize that the troopers that investigate homicides or other major crime don't fit it in between speeding tickets but are actually part of specialized units within the MSP.


Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:

Why is it that only Boston and Springfield (there could be more, but I don't believe so) investigate homicides without State Police assistance? This baffles me...... Don't local cops deal with more serious crimes on a daily basis than a Trooper does? One would think that a local Cop in Lowell, Lawrence, Quincy etc would have a lot more experience than a Trooper who works mainly on our highways. Don't take this as a knock on Troopers, but I just don't understand why departments who have their own relatively large detective bureaus need a Trooper's help. Any thoughts?
Its very apparent to me that you have no idea what Troopers do...practically every major case you see in the paper outside the city of Boston has the involvement of the State Police Detective Unit. There are many reasons...first off is that every district attorney's office is staffed with knowledgable and experienced Troopers who specialize in investigating homicides. Investigations often range all over the state and could quickly tax the resources of a local detective unit. For instance, in a recent murder investigation, the trail led from the town the murder was committed into 4 other communities. A 24 hour surveillance of 3 different subjects over a period of 2 weeks was required... that's at least 3 cars per subject, in case the the subject went mobile. Now most local departments could not spare the manpower nor the overtime to staff such an investigation. Nor could the detectives from the local PD cross boundaries to surveil a subject twenty miles from their city, and they couldn't ask for the financial and manpower commitment of the another town, who has very little stake in the matter. This is where the SPDU comes in to assist. We also provide support with Crime Scene Services, including crime scene photographers and forensic collection specialists, a fully equipped print, DNA, and ballistics lab. This we provide at no cost to cities or towns. The SPDU also has narcotics units, gang units, auto theft units, Violent Fugitive Apprehension Squad (VFAS), computer forensics, and many others that provide the same level of support to local PDs.


Posted by: THE RP

Killjoy lets not get too carried away...Much you say is true however you're not trying to sell a car here....The reason MSP is involved is because homicides in this state fall directly under the jurisdiction of the District Attorneys Office and they do not have a police department other than , you guessed it. MSP. There's no "I'm better than you" stuff going on. It is not a slight to anyone else and it is not because they are superior. I defy any CPAC unit to solve a homicide without the locals and they know that and it's not a point of any contention. In fact many of those cities that you mentioned traditionally handle their own cases with MSP along with them. Because after all who knows the street better than the people who work it every day and night. Some of the smaller communities rely on MSP to handle the brunt of it because they may have only one or two detectives...It's actually a pretty good system and in my experience I think it works well for the most part....MSP obviously has the resources such as lab and crime scene and it is a centralized system with it's faults but it is very good and getting better. All in all it's the extra bodies and extra minds that wins the battle. Many of the CPAC guys have a lot of experience and vice versa and everybody leans on eachother. Sometimes the locals end up writing the brunt of it and sometimes the Troopers do...It is pretty complicated but thats it in a nut shell. I would say that the way it works now is more positive than negative and in fact the best part of the deal is the connections and the friendships everyone makes along the way. That makes things easier down the road for the next one.

The reason why Boston, Springfield and Worcester handle their own is because, through legislation they were able to separate themselves from this and I am sure there were reasons at the time and still are. They do really good jobs at it.

One thing to also consider is when the DA's opted for MSP instead of independent DA investigators, like some other states, theoretically it was because the organization of the MSP lent an air of impartiality and professionalism to be interjected into every local homicide case. At the time theoretically one could argue it was needed in some places. Is it needed as much now as departments have grown and matured? Maybe not but it is still there and it works for the most part.


Posted by: 94c

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
Nor could the detectives from the local PD cross boundaries to surveil a subject twenty miles from their city, .
says who?


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
Nor could the detectives from the local PD cross boundaries to surveil a subject twenty miles from their city
That happens all the time. Sometimes our drug unit spends half their night in Boston, following suspects from incidents that originate in our jurisdiction.


Posted by: Killjoy

For two weeks?...you must have a forgiving and rich chief...during a recent surveillance I was on, we could only get local support on the dayshift.

Quote:
hat happens all the time. Sometimes our drug unit spends half their night in Boston, following suspects from incidents that originate in our jurisdiction
What happens if they're in another jurisdiction, observe a deal and want to wall off the customer to get a name or turn a CI...they have no legal ability to effect the stop? Better hope the local detective aren't busy or they can free up a marked car....


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
What happens if they're in another jurisdiction, observe a deal and want to wall off the customer to get a name or turn a CI...they have no legal ability to effect the stop? Better hope the local detective aren't busy or they can free up a marked car....
The same as your drug people do...call for a marked unit to effect the stop.


Posted by: MSP75

Round 1 begins!


Posted by: 48Weeks

This is when a local can use a Trooper's help. Good point. You guys are definitly sharp when it comes to car stops. And you would have the jurisdiction, yes you would.

What happens if they're in another jurisdiction, observe a deal and want to wall off the customer to get a name or turn a CI...they have no legal ability to effect the stop? Better hope the local detective aren't busy or they can free up a marked car....[/quote]


Posted by: 48Weeks

I am not talking about a small department who doesn't have the resources. I am talking about departments like Lowell and Quincy. Officers on these departments have far more street experience than a Trooper does. Again, I am not trying to knock Troopers, but facts are facts. These departments have plenty of detectives who travel outside of the city on investigations all the time. Departments like these have the manpower and their detectives have a wealth of experience. It still doesn't make sense to me why departments this size need Troopers when their own detectives are equally capable if not more capable than Troopers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
Its very apparent to me that you have no idea what Troopers do...practically every major case you see in the paper outside the city of Boston has the involvement of the State Police Detective Unit. There are many reasons...first off is that every district attorney's office is staffed with knowledgable and experienced Troopers who specialize in investigating homicides. Investigations often range all over the state and could quickly tax the resources of a local detective unit. For instance, in a recent murder investigation, the trail led from the town the murder was committed into 4 other communities. A 24 hour surveillance of 3 different subjects over a period of 2 weeks was required... that's at least 3 cars per subject, in case the the subject went mobile. Now most local departments could not spare the manpower nor the overtime to staff such an investigation. Nor could the detectives from the local PD cross boundaries to surveil a subject twenty miles from their city, and they couldn't ask for the financial and manpower commitment of the another town, who has very little stake in the matter. This is where the SPDU comes in to assist. We also provide support with Crime Scene Services, including crime scene photographers and forensic collection specialists, a fully equipped print, DNA, and ballistics lab. This we provide at no cost to cities or towns. The SPDU also has narcotics units, gang units, auto theft units, Violent Fugitive Apprehension Squad (VFAS), computer forensics, and many others that provide the same level of support to local PDs.



Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by 48Weeks
I am not talking about a small department who doesn't have the resources. I am talking about departments like Lowell and Quincy. Officers on these departments have far more street experience than a Trooper does. Again, I am not trying to knock Troopers, but facts are facts. These departments have plenty of detectives who travel outside of the city on investigations all the time. Departments like these have the manpower and their detectives have a wealth of experience. It still doesn't make sense to me why departments this size need Troopers when their own detectives are equally capable if not more capable than Troopers.
Take it up with the MA Legislature. By law, all homicides have to be investigated by the county DA's office, which (except for the City of Boston) chooses to use the state police to staff their investigative force. That doesn't mean that local police aren't involved in murder investigations.....quite the opposite. At the last murder trial where I testified, the star witness for the prosecution was one of our detectives.


Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:
The same as your drug people do...call for a marked unit to effect the stop.
No, we mostly make our own stops...trying to vector in a marked unit is often a goat rope, especially if they're moving...and no city or barracks can spare a marked unit to sit at our pleasure while we're surveiling, sometimes for hours....look, I work a lot with local detectives and I have nothing but praise for most of them, I just resent the implication that we're some kind of boobs with no "street experience". I've worked every major city this side of Middlesex County, I don't exactly consider myself a babe in the woods. Local detectives know their cities better than anyone, but they are specialists in their city...I work many cities simultaneously. What we provide is link of resources and intelligence between the various towns and cities and the DA's office, and like Delta says, unless you plan to change Mass law, get used to it.


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
No, we mostly make our own stops...
That's an excellent way to get shot by the local police, who most likely won't recognize you. Just ask the MBTA anti-crime cop I almost plugged at a Burger King a few years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
I just resent the implication that we're some kind of boobs with no "street experience".
I don't believe I ever said that.


Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:
That's an excellent way to get shot by the local police, who most likely won't recognize you. Just ask the MBTA anti-crime cop I almost plugged at a Burger King a few years ago.
Well, we do it all the time...haven't taken friendly fire yet...I usually throw on a raid jacket if I'm going to intiate a stop.. and no, not you, 48 weeks with his frankly insulting opinions:

Quote:
Officers on these departments have far more street experience than a Trooper does.
Quote:
This is when a local can use a Trooper's help. Good point. You guys are definitly sharp when it comes to car stops.
Quote:
Don't local cops deal with more serious crimes on a daily basis than a Trooper does?



Posted by: Clouseau

[QUOTE=Killjoy]intelligence between the various towns and cities and the DA's office, and like Delta says, unless you plan to change Mass law, get used to it.[/quote]

Didn't the Lec's try to bump the CPAC's/state investigators out of the DA's office a few years back. My dept. is not part of a Lec, but I recall hearing about this attempt through the grape vine. Anyone remember this?


Posted by: Delta784

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
Well, we do it all the time...haven't taken friendly fire yet...I usually throw on a raid jacket if I'm going to intiate a stop.
I'm glad it's worked out for you, but our unmarked vehicles are prohibited from making car stops, unless it presents an immediate public safety emergency....OUI all over the road, etc.


Posted by: 48Weeks

Sorry to insult you Trooper. Not my intentions. I just feel that a local has a better grasp on who the players are in their city or town than a Trooper does. Also, on bigger departments such as Lowell and Quincy they have the resources to leave their city for surveilance etc. Just my opinion, sorry if I came across the wrong way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
Well, we do it all the time...haven't taken friendly fire yet...I usually throw on a raid jacket if I'm going to intiate a stop.. and no, not you, 48 weeks with his frankly insulting opinions:



Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:
Didn't the Lec's try to bump the CPAC's/state investigators out of the DA's office a few years back. My dept. is not part of a Lec, but I recall hearing about this attempt through the grape vine. Anyone remember this?
Never heard of this...as a matter of courtesy, we always try to let the local detectives know what we're doing in their town, and cut them in if they want a piece of the action...sometimes they jump on the team, sometimes they have their own fish to fry, there is usually no friction.


Posted by: mpd61

Garbage!!

CPAC detectives are just that.........State Police Detectives. Why does everybody keep the stereotype of everybody at MSP being Highway Cavalry? Grow up fer crying out loud!



Posted by: Mr.90/24

I have a serious question! Why is it that local police officers get made or think that they should be responsible for going out of there towns to handle serious situations. I was a local and never thought or agreed with the whole nemlec thing. This state is wasting money on lec's and equipment we don't need. Know the Sherriffs are getting involved and this state is just out of control. The question posted above is a good one! The MSP works out of the DA's office and has done a great job. Most towns and cities, except those mentioned above Boston, etc, have one or no homicides per year. Why would a PD invest time or money on a detective that may catch one homicide every five or so years.


Posted by: Mr.90/24

"Officers on these departments have far more street experience than a Trooper does."

Whoever wrote this line has no idea what they're talking about. I worked for a local PD for about two years. I have been a Trooper for just over one year and I have seen and experienced more in one week on the MSP then I did in those two years as a local. I would also like to add that I worked for a medium size PD located right next to Boston. Why is it that locals take shots at the State?


Posted by: extraining guy

MSP is better trained and has more resources, AND the District Attorney's Offices would rather work with the troopers than local police on serious cases such as homicides, fatal MVA's etc. I have heard, however unsubstantiated at this time, that Middlesex County DA's will only accept MSP analysis of fatal MVA's. Local police, with the exception of very large departments have no money for advanced training or special equipment required for homicide and fatal MVA's. 90+% of local budgets are payroll.


Posted by: 48Weeks

In most states, the Sheriff has police powers county wide and have homicide investigators etc. It is dumbfounding as to why the Sheriffs are not "police officers" in Massachusetts. Sheriffs in other states patrol unincorporated areas as well as incorporated areas which is great (they also have full police academy training). Massachusetts is ass backwards as usual and our Sheriffs are limited. Why, who knows? It would only benefit the community to have more cops out there. This way the highways would have more Troopers on them and would be safer to travel on due to them enforcing chapter 90 versus them getting involved in city business etc. Examples: Florida and California.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.90/24
I have a serious question! Why is it that local police officers get made or think that they should be responsible for going out of there towns to handle serious situations. I was a local and never thought or agreed with the whole nemlec thing. This state is wasting money on lec's and equipment we don't need. Know the Sherriffs are getting involved and this state is just out of control. The question posted above is a good one! The MSP works out of the DA's office and has done a great job. Most towns and cities, except those mentioned above Boston, etc, have one or no homicides per year. Why would a PD invest time or money on a detective that may catch one homicide every five or so years.



Posted by: 48Weeks

Training goes so far, experience goes a lot further. Locals have the everyday experience of the street etc., and know their communities a lot more than a Trooper does. A local makes community contacts who are vital when it comes down to finding out information about crimes etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extraining guy
MSP is better trained and has more resources, AND the District Attorney's Offices would rather work with the troopers than local police on serious cases such as homicides, fatal MVA's etc. I have heard, however unsubstantiated at this time, that Middlesex County DA's will only accept MSP analysis of fatal MVA's. Local police, with the exception of very large departments have no money for advanced training or special equipment required for homicide and fatal MVA's. 90+% of local budgets are payroll.



Posted by: Mr.90/24

My first comment is regarding the comment made about street knowledge or street cops. 60% of the MSP are assigned to units (gang, drug, Auto-theft, homicide, Recon, etc). The other 40% of the job....road troopers (Road Warriors as I like to call them) are hammering the city streets and stirring up the shit bags and locking them up. I have mentioned this numerous times, I was a local prior to MSP and I know how things are run. When I would work a midnight to eight shift, there were times when I was the only one awake, looking for trouble. I was told by senior officers, go hide, stop making noise and locking people up. I worked in a PD with 75 to 80 officers, so maybe six to a mid shift. Well, that means five were tucked away asleep. I am not saying this happens in every PD, I know many locals that hammer and those are the ones that say hi and/or waive when you drive by them.
In regards to the Sheriffs Dept. The other states are backwards...the State Police Departments around this country should be the leading PD..it only makes sense. When you break things up (county, lec's, etc) you make things confusing and there are unfortunate mistakes that occur. Massachusetts does it right!! In closing, the Sheriffs Dept. should start doing the jobs that they're paid for instead of trying to write citations. I have friends that work for the Sheriff's Dept so I am not throwing a dig at any Sheriff guys.....just stating the facts!


Posted by: PBC FL Cop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.90/24
In regards to the Sheriffs Dept. The other states are backwards...the State Police Departments around this country should be the leading PD..it only makes sense. When you break things up (county, lec's, etc) you make things confusing and there are unfortunate mistakes that occur. Massachusetts does it right!!
Easy now trooper, it may make sense in Mass, but it doesn't apply everywhere else. Larger states could not function based on one state police agency alone. County government works very well in many states, as does a highway patrol. Police patrol the cities, sheriff's the county and troopers the highway and everyone knows their respective place with very little confusion, overlapping jurisdictions or stepping on toes.

Stay safe!!


Posted by: extraining guy

Experience is great, and extremely valuable. But when the case goes to the courtroom and the jury is expecting CSI you better have all the charts, scale diagrams, blown up photos, chemical analysis, DNA analysis, and 3D animations to show them. All this costs a ton of money to produce. A 24 x 36 scale diagram printed by Staples will cost you about $150.00. It don't sound like much but Chief's watch every dime. State can do all this in house.
When the defense attorney gets up there and asks the local "how many homicides,fatal mva's etc have you investigated? and the local says 5 in ten years. It don't sound to impressive. CPAC,CARS etc, say things like 20 since January 1 of this year. Thank god there aren't 20 homicides,fatal MVA etc in 4 months in my city. My Chief would go crazy and take us with him.


Posted by: extraining guy

I have heard that in several southern states that the Sheriffs Department are the lead Law Enforcement agency. Sheriff Departments are also very big out west (go figure). MSP has former Governor Ed King to thank for where they are now. He made them more than a "highway patrol". As far as MSP "hammering the city streets" as long as they can't be mistaken for locals when they do something weird I'm all for it. Keep those smokey hats on. I'm a patrol supervisor in a fairly busy community with MSP roads running through it. The state is always on side roads pulling cars over, doing some, what I interprete as questionable searches, maybe these fall within MSP P&P, I don't know MSP policy, but I know they don't fall within ours. My guys back them up until other MSP units arrive. Once this occurs my guys are instructed to return to their routes. It just keeps us from getting caught up in any policy conflicts.


Posted by: Hartmn

Quote:
Originally Posted by 48Weeks
In most states, the Sheriff has police powers county wide and have homicide investigators etc. It is dumbfounding as to why the Sheriffs are not "police officers" in Massachusetts. Sheriffs in other states patrol unincorporated areas as well as incorporated areas which is great (they also have full police academy training). Massachusetts is ass backwards as usual and our Sheriffs are limited. Why, who knows? It would only benefit the community to have more cops out there. This way the highways would have more Troopers on them and would be safer to travel on due to them enforcing chapter 90 versus them getting involved in city business etc. Examples: Florida and California.
Actually, its the other way around. In this area of the country, towns have been incorporated since the 1600's in many cases. Find some unincorporated land around here. Sheriffs have not been a primary law enforcement agency in a couple of centuries. Our county government system is one of the money drains this state could do without. The Sheriff's are the primary pre trial holding agency for jails. Its their single primary role along with transportation of prisoners in custody. Do they want a different role? Of course, most deputies I know have taken every civil service and MSP test that comes around. The Sheriffs in this state should be completely under the DOC. There should be one management system and all the wasted overhead used to save money. And they should have the funding to do an excellent job keeping the jails/prisons secure. Yet they spend an enormous amount of money trying to be what they are not, and then complain that they don't have the money to maintain their facilities every year. They get a state supplied budget, and generate money from other sources.. do you think they give back the excess? Of course not. They buy Command Posts and SWAT gear and say they have "extra" deputies that can be used to help with law enforcement or hire extra civilian staff to work as crime scene personnel.. Well.. if they have "extra" bodies, they are being mismanaged and operating outside their designated role. Their one saving grace has always been the subjectivity of their hiring and promotions. every Pol with a go no where kid that needs a job gets taken are of which gives them political fodder to wheel and deal with.


Posted by: Hartmn

Quote:
Originally Posted by extraining guy
I have heard that in several southern states that the Sheriffs Department are the lead Law Enforcement agency. Sheriff Departments are also very big out west (go figure). MSP has former Governor Ed King to thank for where they are now. He made them more than a "highway patrol". As far as MSP "hammering the city streets" as long as they can't be mistaken for locals when they do something weird I'm all for it. Keep those smokey hats on. I'm a patrol supervisor in a fairly busy community with MSP roads running through it. The state is always on side roads pulling cars over, doing some, what I interprete as questionable searches, maybe these fall within MSP P&P, I don't know MSP policy, but I know they don't fall within ours. My guys back them up until other MSP units arrive. Once this occurs my guys are instructed to return to their routes. It just keeps us from getting caught up in any policy conflicts.
Sheriffs Departments are bigger in other parts of the country because of the way this country was settled and the geography. There are states with enormous amounts of unincorporated land. Massachusetts has been heavily incorporated into cities and towns starting in the 1600's. Sheriffs have never played a role similar to what they do in other states. They want to very badly..but they never have. Find me a deputy that has not (or is not) trying desperately to get a "police" job and I'll show you 20 that have/are. Here the Sheriffs department is a layaway stepping stone for bad test takers until they get a break..that and Pols kids who need a job..and maybe a subjective "field promotion" if the old man helps the Sheriff out.


Posted by: Hartmn

Quote:
Originally Posted by 48Weeks
Officers on these departments have far more street experience than a Trooper does. Again, I am not trying to knock Troopers, but facts are facts.
Your facts are sorely mistaken. I know quite a few local guys very well, and we compare notes often. Your deduction is probably closer to be backwards than correct. If I ever have to serve an RO, or write a parking ticket, I'll defer to the experts, but for "street experience" Joe average road Trooper is going to be exposed to a lot more than the average local guy.


Posted by: 48Weeks

Uhh no. Well maybe...... A Trooper does indeed have more "street experience" if you are talking about stopping cars on the streets. I agree there..... otherwise, a local, especially in places like Lowell, Cambridge, Quincy, Boston etc etc has much more real "street experience" than a Trooper does. Facts are facts and this is the truth. It is not a knock, it is simply the truth. Stay safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartmn
Your facts are sorely mistaken. I know quite a few local guys very well, and we compare notes often. Your deduction is probably closer to be backwards than correct. If I ever have to serve an RO, or write a parking ticket, I'll defer to the experts, but for "street experience" Joe average road Trooper is going to be exposed to a lot more than the average local guy.



Posted by: Killjoy

Quote:



Uhh no. Well maybe...... A Trooper does indeed have more "street experience" if you are talking about stopping cars on the streets. I agree there..... otherwise, a local, especially in places like Lowell, Cambridge, Quincy, Boston etc etc has much more real "street experience" than a Trooper does. Facts are facts and this is the truth. It is not a knock, it is simply the truth. Stay safe.
The "truth" as you define it in your fantasy-land world....look, its obvious that you don't like Troopers (from any state apparently) and comment continuously on how much sharper, smarter, streetwise, better, etc. locals are, well that's fine and you are entitled to your opinion, but don't pass it off as "fact". My opinion of local police is very high and I work with many local departments on a regular basis, so I can only assume that you must base your low opinion of Troopers on regular casework with them....either that or you're basing your opinion on conjecture, rumor and old war stories handed down by the crusty veterans. It's easy to hate what you don't really know...come work on a task force for a while and then try to crap on Troopers who watch your back as we kick in a door together.


Posted by: O-302

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killjoy
The "truth" as you define it in your fantasy-land world....look, its obvious that you don't like Troopers (from any state apparently) and comment continuously on how much sharper, smarter, streetwise, better, etc. locals are, well that's fine and you are entitled to your opinion, but don't pass it off as "fact". My opinion of local police is very high and I work with many local departments on a regular basis, so I can only assume that you must base your low opinion of Troopers on regular casework with them....either that or you're basing your opinion on conjecture, rumor and old war stories handed down by the crusty veterans. It's easy to hate what you don't really know...come work on a task force for a while and then try to crap on Troopers who watch your back as we kick in a door together.

=D>

Amen brother!


Posted by: j809

Quote:
Originally Posted by 48Weeks
Uhh no. Well maybe...... A Trooper does indeed have more "street experience" if you are talking about stopping cars on the streets. I agree there..... otherwise, a local, especially in places like Lowell, Cambridge, Quincy, Boston etc etc has much more real "street experience" than a Trooper does. Facts are facts and this is the truth. It is not a knock, it is simply the truth. Stay safe.
48 Weeks, are you even a cop? Where do you come up with all these stupid assumptions and stupid threads? When you work the street, you'll know if you are a cop or just law enforcement.


Posted by: massirishcop

We are all on the same team......


Posted by: PBC FL Cop

Quote:
Originally Posted by massirishcop
We are all on the same team......
If that were only the truth, but don't fool yourself.




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