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Main Page Reserve / Intermittent vs Full Academy
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: USMCTrooper

I am wondering if abolishing one for the other might solve the perceived training problems between people full academy trained and reserve academy trained.

If everyone was full academy trained would it make things run smoother and void some of the problems we've discussed here for years?

No bashing here. Lets have insightful debate. In theory, this could weed out the "police agencies" who operate as, but aren't.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Case in point, in the military, whether active duty, reserve or national guard, everyone attends an active duty boot camp for their respective services. Its not until after boot camp that their level of practical experience varies.

Posted by: tomcats

I think its an excellent idea and should be what is done. Now if we can convince the politicians to do it........ok......well thats not going to happen. I think anyone who is granted police powers should first have to attend a full time police academy, that would eliminate a lot of the "barney fifes" we have running around faking they are the real thing.

Posted by: OutOfManyOne

Connecticut has a great program. Now I am refering to their academy program as I read about it five years ago, I don't believe it changed. In CT there was no PT academy, just FT, but that academy could have been completed in two ways. Full time day curriculum of approximately 22 weeks or on a part-time basis over 18 months, including many weekends. This way everyone came out with the same certificate. Unfortunately you will not see one MPOC for all in this state as the MPTC has already started as of last year severing themselves from Campus Police,Sheriffs,Environmental Police and any other agency that is not a city or town. New Hampshire did it right, one academy for everyone, makes sense, but here in MA it is too political and everyone has their own personal agendas, from MSP academy to MBTA Academy, to Lowell Academy to the MPOC Academies. I personally do not think that anyone wih a reserve academy should work the streets, unless it is in an auxiliary capability or as a reserve driving with a FT officer.

Posted by: kwflatbed

You need a third choice,

All LEO's in the state receive the same basic training, Including sheriffs,DOC, etc.

Specialized training after basic just like the military.

You take the test for the department you want to be in.
Standards of training set along the lines of military training.
Live in academy.

I know that a lot would disagree with this type of training but if it was set up right
it would stop all of the I am better than you bullshit. You either cut it or not.
You are either a LEO or a security guard no inbetween.

Posted by: NorwichAlum

All people working the street need a full-time academy. But, the R/I academy does have its place to teach the basics. We send our R/I's and Auxilliarys to the R/I academy. This enables both to work details and the Aux. can do their school patrol. PI's are not allowed to work shifts in our town, but they can do ride alongs (unpaid).

Posted by: jsc4324

Just replying to the comment about "New Hampshire Doing it right". In NH there is a full time academy that is a residential academy that is somewhat intensive. There is also a part time academy that is i believe 7 weeks long, however those attending go two nights a week and all day sat. I believe how that still operates. The part time academy is also stricltly academic and has little other instruction from what I understand. I can tell you from my experiences with those in the PD that I work for the "Part Timers" with few exceptions do not have anywhere near the training that is needed for the roadways.

Just my 2 cents, I think it would be great to have all trained to the fullest extent but time and money grately determine that.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorwichAlum

All people working the street need a full-time academy. But, the R/I academy does have its place to teach the basics. We send our R/I's and Auxilliarys to the R/I academy. This enables both to work details and the Aux. can do their school patrol. PI's are not allowed to work shifts in our town, but they can do ride alongs (unpaid).

This is a situation in my opinion where the R/I shouldn't apply. Unless under the direct supervision of a FT police officer, reserves/aux. shouldn't be alone on a detail or in a school. School violence/shootings are frightfully prevelant and we all know what can happen on a detail: 90% of the time nothing 10% of the time med calls to shots fired. If someone who attends the R/I is classified by a dept. as PT, Reserve, Aux. etc, then WHY should they work alone in any situation? I say make everyone FT trained, if only used and paid PT....

Posted by: NorwichAlum

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCTrooper

Unless under the direct supervision of a FT police officer, reserves/aux. shouldn't be alone on a detail or in a school.

Just for clarification, they don't work in the schools. The Auxialliary's have an evening patrol of all town buildings. They are in a marked cruiser and are armed. They have no authority to stop vehicles. They qualify every year on firearms & CPR/first responder.

Posted by: sempergumby

I wish every person that wanted to become a Police Officer could get the full time academy. But..... as we all know it won't happen. Departments need a cheaper less expensive way to fight man power shortages. A couple of R/PI guys fits the bill. I'm not saying that every person who comes out of a part time academy is a a soup sandwich, but a lot can be. Also some very squared away motivated people come out also and when properly trained in the field they can hang with any full time Officer.
There is a place and a time for R/PI people, you just have to utilize tehm like any other tool.

Posted by: speccop

I only wish every LEO would go to the fulltime academy. Like USMCTrooper stated: just like the military, everyone goes to basic and where u go from there depends on your contract...but everyone gets the fulltime training. Not only would it put everyone at the same training level and give the department much more competent and well-educated & trained auxies and reserves, but it would also weed out some of the hackers in most auxiliary forces. Too bad it will NEVER happen in my lifetime.

Posted by: Billy5715

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCTrooper

Case in point, in the military, whether active duty, reserve or national guard, everyone attends an active duty boot camp for their respective services. Its not until after boot camp that their level of practical experience varies.

I think this is a great way to compare the situation. I can only imagine what would happen if the military had a P/T basic and then a F/T basic. I know a lot of other states have just one basic academy, then say troopers go to there own school for an additional 8 weeks and so on. I hope some day this state will re-think the way they do things, but hey who are we kidding this is Massachusetts.

Posted by: wordstew

Well now seeing how you brought this subject up if that is to be the case who has the best full-time academy?????? Because if you didn't go to that one I assume you will also be attending "the real academy training" to make up for the training you didn't get in your substandard academy.

Let's really get petty and issue pins/emblems from the academy you attended and then make a state law that requires you to wear it on your uniform. That way you can be a little more selective with who you decide to snub your nose at.

I have seen alot of officers who came out of a full-time academy and didn't know Sh&^*t, just like an auxie.

How about we have one standard qualifying written/practical test and required field training for all LEO's in MA. Then you get a certificate you can bring anywhere if your academy was 200 or 2000 hours you either know it or not. Then let every agency choose how much they want to train above that standard for thier particular mission (IE: Staties)

No offense meant to anyone just making a contribution to tha Madcops discussion board. Sorry meant Masscops (or did I)

Posted by: RPD931

Hey now.. Not trying tout my own horn but I'm just a part-timer and I consider myself squared away and knowledgeable. I attribute alot of this to learning from veterans around me and taking alot of additional specialized training courses. I go to several various training classes every year, often at my own expense. I patrol the streets SOLO. I've been on the streets as part-time (2-3 shifts per week) for 2 years now. If you were to tell me that I had to ride shotgun all the time with a full-timer, I'd go nuts.

I had quite a bit of experience as a Special for another town and a few years as a Campus PO so my field training was fairly "quick" just needed some exposure to regular Chapter 90 enforcement (which is now a favorite of mine

).

As Sempergumby stated

Quote:

A couple of R/PI guys fits the bill. I'm not saying that every person who comes out of a part time academy is a a soup sandwich, but a lot can be. Also some very squared away motivated people come out also and when properly trained in the field they can hang with any full time Officer.

If I could afford it I would have sent myself through the FT by now. And I understand the financial costs and manpower burden it puts on my department if they were to send me. Its tough.

I agree there should be just 2 academies in this state. They're MPTC certified and the MSP Academy. That's all. No SSPO or R/I. we should do what Florida and Cali do and run academies like night school it may take longer than attending full-time day but the curriculum would be the same.

And yes Connecticut still runs the same programs they did five years ago. You either attend the academy full-time day or nights/weekends over about 18 months - same curriculum.

Posted by: frapmpd24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sempergumby

I wish every person that wanted to become a Police Officer could get the full time academy. But..... as we all know it won't happen. Departments need a cheaper less expensive way to fight man power shortages. A couple of R/PI guys fits the bill. I'm not saying that every person who comes out of a part time academy is a a soup sandwich, but a lot can be. Also some very squared away motivated people come out also and when properly trained in the field they can hang with any full time Officer.
There is a place and a time for R/PI people, you just have to utilize tehm like any other tool.

If towns/cities utilize part-time police officers on the road, it would be a good idea to send them through the full-time academy and use the reserve academy for specials/auxillary that are working details, etc. But ofcourse, now the MPTC has restricted so many agencies from doing that, even if there is a top notch part-time officer they want to put through, they don't have full-time employment so they can't, that BS. There are college/university police officers that are working far more dangerous areas than some full-time municipal officers in parts of the state, lets be realisitic.

I can understand not wanting to accept self sponsors and the issue it creates with having too many people with the academy than jobs available. If the academies want to set up a priority list of who they accept, fine, but don't limit the training options for police officers who are currently/goint to be working the road. Also, if towns hire part-timers, make the investment in them as they as individuals are also making an investment in the town. If there is no other choice (like the present time), ensure they are properly trained after completing the part-time academy with a structured FTO program, some specilized training (MPTC, CPS, etc...), and require them to attend reserve in-service yearly to update keep fresh. A night/weekend academy in the same training format as the full-time academy would seem to work much better than the current R/I option. Atleast the less than desirables could be weeded out and those who make it through prove their abilities (and committment after 18 months).

Posted by: soxrock75

I am actually researching this topic right now for my Master's Thesis. When you look at it, there are at least 5 different academies that "qualify" someone to be a "Police Officer" in Massachusetts: Full MPTC, R/I MPTC, Full MSP, SSPO, Boston Special Academy.

So, in theory you could have 4 or 5 different agencies working in the same city, Boston, with all of them having very different requirements for their officers. Yet, in the public eye, they are all functioning as "Police Officers".

Posted by: BlackOps

Come on RPD931, you know that you would love to ride shotgun with me for an eight hour shift !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: FutureCop23

I completely agree with the ideal of having one, or at the most two ( one special for MSP ) academies. Unfortunately, as many on this board know, this is Massachusetts and that's not going to happen anytime soon. I do believe that the R/I Academy does have it's place in the police world. Knowing that the one-academy-fits-all ideal isn't coming around anytime soon, I believe the R/I Academy can be used in a positive way, even though it may not produce graduates with as much knowledge and training as the fulltime academy. I myself am in college, trying to fulfill a life-long dream of becoming a police officer. Would I prefer to go through the full-time academy, OF COURSE!! Do I want this career enough to sacrifice the time and money it would cost to put myself through it to make me 1) more appealing to departments and 2) more trained and reliable to both fellow officers and the public? Where do I sign up?! Oh wait.. no more self-sponsors. Now my only option is to find a department who either has an auxiliary that doesn't require the R/I Academy, or if it does will put me through it. It's either that or find a department that isn't afraid of the LIABILITY that comes with signing the application to the R/I Academy. I think of myself as highly motivated and squared-away. With my only option of going through the R/I Academy, I would not try to be some yahoo or ego-maniac officer/auxiliary/reserve many people assume graduates of the R/I would be. I am forced to use the R/I as a stepping stone, so that if I'm lucky I will be hired, even if it's just riding along with a F/T officer, observing. I would keep my mouth shut, know my role, and gain valuable experience. Think of it this way, electricians and many other specialized fields do not all attend the same training ( at least as I perceive it ). The younger, inexperienced ones work along side Masters and Licensed workers, much like a graduate of the R/I academy would do with a F/T officer. Would I want an inexperienced electrician working on my house, of course not, same as I would not want an inexperienced officer being out on his own. However, this is how younger people like myself, gain experience. Of course it would be nice if I could go through the fulltime academy and be better trained and all that, but that's not how it is. Until this state gets it's act together, the R/I academy and auxiliaries/reserves are, in my view, a vital but dwindling part of the police world.

Posted by: wordstew

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxrock75

I am actually researching this topic right now for my Master's Thesis. When you look at it, there are at least 5 different academies that "qualify" someone to be a "Police Officer" in Massachusetts: Full MPTC, R/I MPTC, Full MSP, SSPO, Boston Special Academy.

So, in theory you could have 4 or 5 different agencies working in the same city, Boston, with all of them having very different requirements for their officers. Yet, in the public eye, they are all functioning as "Police Officers".

When you write the Thesis you may want to include a chapter or two on social engineering and how the unions , various police agencies and academies influence officers causing a real divide among officers rather than making them more cohesive with others in the law enforcement community.

Posted by: DOD/272

I think the real question is how can the R/I academies better train the PT officer to fit the job he/she is being used for.

I work p/t for a dept that has 4 FT off and 1 sgt. we have 14 working reserves they all work shift and either w/FT, w/another PT or alone. I have been doing this for 10 years and I keep up on my training. No, I have not been to a FT academy, I am 120hr R/I Academy, BT, FST, radar/lidar, EVOC, Reid school, baton,oc, 1st respnder/cpr/aed certified. If I missed something I most likey took it. I have testified in court made felony arrests, conducted interview/interrogations. ALL FOR $12/hr

So where do I stand I am not FT academy trained?

Posted by: Otto

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxrock75

Don't forget all the federal agencies, each with their own academies.

Posted by: j809

FT academy just sets a standard. Nothing beats the experience. You can work at a busy state college or or for a municipal department with only a PT academy and have a shitload of more experience than a FT academy graduate. I believe everyone that is fulltime, campus or municipal or whatever other state angency should all have the FT academy.

I do not agree with

Quote:

If towns/cities utilize part-time police officers on the road, it would be a good idea to send them through the full-time academy

If that is the case, why hire full time officers, they will cause more problems. If you have a FT academy, why work Part-Time. I think that part-timers with PT academies should work in a limited capacity unless they can document alot of training, like some PT officers on this website.

Posted by: JoninNH

Quote:

we should do what Florida and Cali do and run academies like night school it may take longer than attending full-time day but the curriculum would be the same.

I'd like that too, but this is MA, and it's never going to happen.

Quote:

I work p/t for a dept that has 4 FT off and 1 sgt. we have 14 working reserves they all work shift and either w/FT, w/another PT or alone. I have been doing this for 10 years and I keep up on my training. No, I have not been to a FT academy, I am 120hr R/I Academy, BT, FST, radar/lidar, EVOC, Reid school, baton,oc, 1st respnder/cpr/aed certified. If I missed something I most likey took it. I have testified in court made felony arrests, conducted interview/interrogations. ALL FOR $12/hr

DOD/212, I know for a fact you are not the only officer in MA in this situiation... To suggest someone like you should have to ride second seat to someone, just because you have an RI academy is ludicrus. You have ten-plust years on the streets, that counts for a lot.

I think it was mentioned before, but I think there should be a standardized knowledge test for police in MA. FT, PT, CPO, MSP, everyone should be required to take and pass this test before being employed as a cop. It works in other states... just my 2 cents.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOD/272

I think the real question is how can the R/I academies better train the PT officer to fit the job he/she is being used for.

I work p/t for a dept that has 4 FT off and 1 sgt. we have 14 working reserves they all work shift and either w/FT, w/another PT or alone. I have been doing this for 10 years and I keep up on my training. No, I have not been to a FT academy, I am 120hr R/I Academy, BT, FST, radar/lidar, EVOC, Reid school, baton,oc, 1st respnder/cpr/aed certified. If I missed something I most likey took it. I have testified in court made felony arrests, conducted interview/interrogations. ALL FOR $12/hr

So where do I stand I am not FT academy trained?

I have a few questions.

Do you make the same per hour as a FT officer?

If not, why?

Does your dept. make you ride with a FT officer when they are available? Why?

Does your dept make you to ride alone if no FT officer is available? Why?

Lastly, are you all considered of the same rank and authority regardless of FT or PT status? If not, why? (ie reserves in some communities have ranks as high as LT, however the highest reserve, aux., special, are all subordinate to the most junior FT patrolman)

Posted by: badgebunny

I am currently in the RIPA. I too would LOVE the opportunity to go to a full time academy. But here's the thing...what if your town can't afford to send you, but would like too? What if you can't afford to put yourself through like someone previously stated? I know that we aren't getting as much training as full time academy gives, but like I was told "How you train is how you perform"! So my question now becomes should we not afford someone the opportunity because of their inability to pay/town's inability to pay for full time academy? I am greatful for the chance to at least start as a pt officer and then who knows what might happen...you never know how good someone is until you see them in action!

Posted by: JoninNH

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCTrooper

Lastly, are you all considered of the same rank and authority regardless of FT or PT status? If not, why? (ie reserves in some communities have ranks as high as LT, however the highest reserve, aux., special, are all subordinate to the most junior FT patrolman)

But there are many commuinities where the reserves/specials rank equal to the fulltimers in the department. A reserve or part-time sergeant ranks the same as a full-time sergeant, etc.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

If I can get away with sending my guys to a PT academy, for less money, and "rank" them to be equal with those who went the FT route, then why send anyone to a FT academy?

This isn't applicable on the MSP so I don't know how I'd feel but if you are FT trained and someone PT trained out ranks you or could "command" you, how would guys feel? In my community, the most junior ptlmn outranks the highest special. The reason is the specials ride along 1 day a week, 2 guys at a time, voluntary. Some never volunteer. During the times when the FT force is out, annual XMas party, Assoc. picnic, the town is covered by specials, 2 per cruiser and there must be a FT patrolman working each shift to act as a "supervisor" regardless of the rank the special holds.

In my opinion, if a dept mix and matches FT and PT, FT should supercede PT. If you're PT for 5, 10, 15 years then one of two possibilities exist: You don't want to be FT and only do the job PT. OR You are being passed over the chance for FT academy. If you are PT for years and someone else is FT for minutes, something isn't right. You should have the chance to take that spot.

Posted by: DOD/272

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCTrooper

I have a few questions.

Do you make the same per hour as a FT officer? FT officers are $19-25/hr, PT $12/hr

If not, why? Small town,small budget. A lack of respect for the PT OFCs who put their lives on the line doing same job, no bennies either.

Does your dept. make you ride with a FT officer when they are available? Why? No, 2 guys 2 cars etc. Each OFC rides alone unless they opt to double up. No policy on issue. It would be your choice after an OFC has done FTO.(FTO time varies on trainee)

Does your dept make you to ride alone if no FT officer is available? Why? same as above, with the exception of overnight which usually one guy after 0100.

Lastly, are you all considered of the same rank and authority regardless of FT or PT status? If not, why? (ie reserves in some communities have ranks as high as LT, however the highest reserve, aux., special, are all subordinate to the most junior FT patrolman)

FT out ranks PTa given. No issues with that to date. If FT present they will take lead or in an invest anyone can do initial then its kicked to FT. With that said currently FT or PT when working are no different except in the areas of pay, academy training time and experience recieved from working a FT schedule as apposed to PT. I know other than FT academy and inservice, Some of my PT coworkers and I have attended more training classes than a couple of FTs. You know the guys, the ones that only go if ordered or payed to go. No reserve rank. Only rank in dept is chief and one sgt.

Posted by: soxrock75

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordstew

Already in there...........I talk about mutual aid, respect and inter-agency relationships, image....all of that. I find the topic very interesting.

Posted by: PearlOnyx

I'm going through the academy here in Florida now, and they have gone to a state wide curriculum where every person certified as a police officer learns the same exact thing. After state certification, you are then trained for agency specific things by your own agency. The way you learn the curriculum varies: Full-Time Residential, Full-Time "College Setting", Part-Time Night's and Weekends, and Cross-Over, for those already certified in Corrections. All in all, I think it's a great system, which en sure that every police officer on the road, has the same level of base training. I think it would be a great system for Massachusetts.

Posted by: Flavor Flav!

Honestly, I completed both back to back (was hired full time while in the part time academy) and accept for extended class length, a meager amount of PT and CYA racial profiling classes I found very little difference...

I think we should all train at the SPA

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCTrooper

I am wondering if abolishing one for the other might solve the perceived training problems between people full academy trained and reserve academy trained.

If everyone was full academy trained would it make things run smoother and void some of the problems we've discussed here for years?

No bashing here. Lets have insightful debate. In theory, this could weed out the "police agencies" who operate as, but aren't.

Posted by: RPD931

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackOps

Come on RPD931, you know that you would love to ride shotgun with me for an eight hour shift !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For entertainment purposes, YES.

Posted by: EOD1

Quote:

I'm going through the academy here in Florida now, and they have gone to a state wide curriculum where every person certified as a police officer learns the same exact thing. After state certification, you are then trained for agency specific things by your own agency. The way you learn the curriculum varies: Full-Time Residential, Full-Time "College Setting", Part-Time Night's and Weekends, and Cross-Over, for those already certified in Corrections. All in all, I think it's a great system, which en sure that every police officer on the road, has the same level of base training. I think it would be a great system for Massachusetts.

seems good, i haven't been to either, but i can see the points being made. i know it would simply my life in the future.

Posted by: Delta784

In a perfect world, anyone who pins the badge and straps-on a gun would have the full-time academy. However, there are so many small towns in this state that rely on part-timers, specials, and auxiliaries, that's not feasible. Asking someone with a full-time job to take 4-5 months off to attend the police academy, just to be certified for a part-time or volunteer position, doesn't make any sense.

Ideally, the MPTC would run an academy that includes all aspects of the full-time academy, with a part-time schedule. Perhaps evening classes, with a residential component during the weekend. I believe Florida has something like that.

In any event, when all is said & done, the academy is okay preparation, but the great majority of what you need to know as a street cop is going to come from actually working the street, and from working with a veteran officer.

Posted by: bbelichick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

In any event, when all is said & done, the academy is okay preparation, but the great majority of what you need to know as a street cop is going to come from actually working the street, and from working with a veteran officer.

Which is fairly rare (at least in the Western part of the State), because many of the part-time department's "veteran officers" have little experience themselves.

Posted by: mpd61

Since the MPTC "gods" have seen fit to curtail a broad spectrum of training opportunities for a lot of FT cops, (Campus, Environmental, Etc....) maybe they should implement some kind of Post-R/I field training standards Like Competencies or minimum hours of practical observed training............

Oh sorry, that would make sense.

In any event, this job is mostly attitude & experience. There are a minority of R/I veterans who are better than some FT academy graduates. I agree that 100% FT academy would be great, but I also agree it ain't happening soon.

Posted by: EOD1

hey i would take the time off to go, hell i would pay for it myself and sell a kidney.

Posted by: Macop

The idea that someone with the R/I academy should not work the streets alone is stupid. I worked as p/t time officer for a number of years and after working f/t with p/t officers I realize that once you get trained and have half a brain you can do the job. I know of f/t officers that are not half the cop as some p/time officers.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by EOD1

hey i would take the time off to go, hell i would pay for it myself and sell a kidney.

I felt the same way when I was 21, but people with families just can't do something like that.

Posted by: Gateway2CapeSummer

I definately agree, everyone should attend some sort of full time academy in order to work out on the streets by yourself. I have completed the Reserve academy and feel that I did not get enough from it. Most of my learning experiences seemed to have come more from other officers. There are definately times that I am positive more training would have done me much better than what I went through.

Posted by: id1811xecj

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macop

The idea that someone with the R/I academy should not work the streets alone is stupid. I worked as p/t time officer for a number of years and after working f/t with p/t officers I realize that once you get trained and have half a brain you can do the job. I know of f/t officers that are not half the cop as some p/time officers.

Let me be the advocate for the stupid idea then. The minimal training of the R/I academy does not give anyone the base level of skills required to work in law enforcement. In my first academy, I got 32 hours of baton training.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbelichick

Which is fairly rare (at least in the Western part of the State), because many of the part-time department's "veteran officers" have little experience themselves.

It's crazy if a department employs exclusively (or even mostly) part-time officers. If they can't afford full-time officers, they should regionalize with the surrounding towns.

(Hahahaha......just kidding)

Posted by: EOD1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta784

I felt the same way when I was 21, but people with families just can't do something like that.

oh yeah i hear ya, well actually i have 2 kids(3 years old), and i can afford to do it

.... i can afford to do it NOW! i don't know about in a year or a year and a half.... this F^*&@ing sucks ass!

i like the idea of every1 having a F/T academy, but i would think most of ur experience comes from your FTO/field training and learning form other officers. its like saying bootcamp prepares u to go war. bootcamp lays the foundation. like i said i don't have either(F/T or P/T) so i am assuming. but I was on a ride along in Va Beach and I was having a conversation about the way we do things in MA vs VA and he brought up good ole murphies law. u can have an academy that that is twice as long, and twice the time with an FTO and ur first call on ur own you will see something u never even dreamed of and was never addressed in any training or FTO time.

but obviously more training the better.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by EOD1

oh yeah i hear ya, well actually i have 2 kids(3 years old), and i can afford to do it

.... i can afford to do it NOW! i don't know about in a year or a year and a half.... this F^*&@ing sucks ass!

Keep at it, your time will come eventually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EOD1

i like the idea of every1 having a F/T academy, but i would think most of ur experience comes from your FTO/field training and learning form other officers.

For the most part, that's correct. The base knowledge you need (rights of arrest, etc.) will come from the academy, but how to actually conduct yourself on the street only comes from experience, and from watching veteran officers.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Interesting that the article posted on a separate thread (The Flip side: Reserves....) showed this issue is not unique to Massachusetts.

Posted by: Flavor Flav!

I agree with sempergumpy. Merely completing an academy (full or part) means very little. Whether its the SPA, MCJTC or any other academy, many have passed who should not have. Sometimes DI's gun for a soup sandwich only to learn that they have political ties or are needed to fill a quota. As a result, we have Troopers and Police Officers graduating with honors that are not deserved! It is only when the s--- hits the fan on the street that we find out who is worthy. I have "worked alone" with incompetents who have completed the MCJTC and the SPA! I have also worked with excellent part timers who just never had a shot because they missed a few exam questions about what is "most or least likely" according to some civilian.
In sum, often times a fancy resume is just that.

You can't hide behind a badge. Cops are born not made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sempergumby

Posted by: Flavor Flav!

I must clarify that I do not regard some of these tools that appear in jeans and their pc as officers. Some of the things that go on in these hilltowns are crazy!

Posted by: RPD931

Quote:

You can't hide behind a badge. Cops are born not made.

Such a true statement. The people that "make" themselves Cops are the ones that tend to screw it up for themselves.

Posted by: BPD850

I am the only full time officer employed in our department. We cover three shifts a day with one officer on. How do you think that works? Our beloved town uses part-time officer to cover "all necessary hours" according to our contract. Two of these work 32 hours a week or more regularly! It's insane. Most have only had a day or two of training, which includes telling them how to use the radio and where the bathroom is located. Then they are off and running. It's a complete disaster waiting to happen. I started as a part time officer but not working like this, thank God. They are not bad people, just poorly managed, undertrained and expected to perform in a capacity they are not meant to. It's not fair to the department, the public, or the part-timers themselves.

Posted by: JoninNH

Quote:

Originally Posted by BPD850

I am the only full time officer employed in our department. We cover three shifts a day with one officer on. How do you think that works? Our beloved town uses part-time officer to cover "all necessary hours" according to our contract. Two of these work 32 hours a week or more regularly! It's insane. Most have only had a day or two of training, which includes telling them how to use the radio and where the bathroom is located. Then they are off and running. It's a complete disaster waiting to happen. I started as a part time officer but not working like this, thank God. They are not bad people, just poorly managed, undertrained and expected to perform in a capacity they are not meant to. It's not fair to the department, the public, or the part-timers themselves.

It sounds more like you're gripe is the lack of an FTO program...

Posted by: SPINMASS

and the fact that the department seems to regard P/T as more important than Full Timers.

Posted by: RPD931

Quote:

Originally Posted by BPD850

And what will happen when you leave? I hope the town will spit out some more money soon.

W-17

Posted by: 48Weeks

I know of one kid who completed a NERPE academy (if that's what you want to call it), and then quit after day one of the New Braintree SSPO Academy. 6'4'' 250 lbs of wussy. Couldn't handle the Troopers yelling at him. Prior to attending the SSPO this same kid felt he knew everything. It is important for a police officer to be able to take shit out there, and the full time and SSPO prepare an officer for the same, NERPE type classes do not.

Posted by: stm4710

The reserve academy has a role in the big scheme of things. I have a full time job that has nothing to do with police work. I cant drop that full time job to goto a fulltime academy/sspo to be trained. I am a special auxillary for Marblehead. I get no compansation for that. I dont work at my job I also dont get any compansation aside from exhausting my PTO hours. I am not that rich that I can stop working for 6 months.

Its the same with others--harbormasters, arson investigators, hospital cops etc, etc.

I am dedicated to MSAP and I am serious about completeing the academy. I do take it seriously. What pisses me off is some of the lax requirements they have. If your in class # 95 you have the back of the room full of deputys that SLEEP in the back, skip out and talk the whole time.

But I will tell you also academys/courses dont prepare you for the real world.....be they police,fire or EMS. Academys give you basic building blocks and catch phrases. Learing how to be a cop,firefighter or EMT/Medic comes from being out on the street with guys that have been doing this job long before you were a dribble on daddys leg. Learning how to do that job means listening to advice, keeping your mouth shut, ears open, knowing your role and doing your time as a lower than whale scat probie.

What I cant stand are people who get the 3/20 sydrome, meaning they have beening working there 3 weeks but think they have been on the job 20 years.

Posted by: USMCTrooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by stm4710

What I cant stand are people who get the 3/20 sydrome, meaning they have beening working there 3 weeks but think they have been on the job 20 years.

We have a name for them:

Posted by: Mikey682

Shit in, Shit out. I think the real factor in any police officer is their reasonableness and intelligence. Academy-learned tactics are very important, and essential...but only if the officer is going to retain this knowledge and utilize it in the field.

Posted by: Patrick258

The political climate in this state would never let there be one type of academy, until you get police chiefs on board just maybe...... you could change it.

Posted by: PearlOnyx

Patrick,

Not necessarily one academy, but one basic curriculum. What I love about here in Florida, is the statewide curriculum. Sure, it's got it's bugs, but in my opinion it has the Massachusetts sytem beat hands down. Every police officer regardless of state, county, local goes through the same 20 or so week curriculum, and then passes the state certification exam. Then, once you pass that you go to agency based training, which allows you to focus more on specifically what your agency focuses on. I think it's a great system, because it makes you portable. If you want to pick up and leave one department and go to another, there is no having to go through another academy, maybe just a short agency based training, and it pretty much ensures that every police officer, from small community colleges to large state agencies have the same level of basic training.

Posted by: Portable81

Maybe MASS needs a part-time full-time academy...like CT.

Posted by: epd111

Greetings! I just joined your site and thought I'd add my two cents (actually, get on my soap box) to this rather old post - mostly because it is often an issue in agencies in many states. I will be the first to admit that I don't, yet, understand MA requirements, but it strikes me that the "non full time" (herein, NFT) officers - whatever title is appropriate - appear to be put on the streets with minimal training. If this is a fact, that is a damn shame and a potential liability for the departments, governmental entities, and the officers themselves.
The long and short of it is that every officer must be trained to certain minimum standards - if nothing else, for THEIR safety. It appears that MA NFT training may be as short as 100 hours, is that right? Holy cow, I thought SC was bad and needed, but it requires more than that (finally).
My premise is that everyone requires the same basic training and that accomodations can be made for those that are NFT - classes at night, on weekends, whatever. Other states have done it, very successfully. An undertrained officer is a real problem, through no fault of his/her own. Until such time as equal training is provided, there will be some that look down on the NFT officer and look for any reason to make comments when errors are made. Additionally, there can be issues in how an agency chooses to use the NFT - especially if it is to replace and/or limit the hiring of full time officers.
An effective NFT program, with well-trained and mature officers, can be a real benefit to an agency. Therein lies the rub - if we (a generic, universal "we") are having problems with NFTs, we need to identify if it is the training issue, or a poor selection process? Good cops, bad cops - anyone who has been around long enough knows that their FT/NFT status has little to do with how well many officers perform their duties. That being said, an NFT officer, in my opinion, must act BETTER than a regular. All eyes are on him/her and their failure to meet the grade will often reflect on their fellow NFT's - more so than the failure of a full time officer reflects on his peers.
"Nice drivel, Ed. What makes you think your opinion has much weight?" Well, I do like to hear the sound of my own voice!

But, more importantly, I have 22 years of service in agencies from a city in Los Angeles County to small towns in SC. I am currently a lieutenant with my agency, represent the chief on numerous boards and groups, and have seen many improvements in the profession (especially in SC - the horror stories I could tell!). After that many years, the number of trainees (reserve and regular) that have suffered through my preaching is fairly large - so I've seen a nice sample of good guys and useless guys. Rarely is training the sole problem of the useless guys.
As a summary, it is imperative that the NFT's receive comparable training (maybe not exactly, but close) to that provided the full-time guys. Numerous benefits - safety, liability, confidence, and professionalism - would accrue. Will that ever happen? Beats me... it's mostly a political issue.
Oh... my wife says I'm too hard on the NFT's - the whole thing about more training, meeting the same FT standards, and generally being "better". Well, those 22 years? All of them have been as a reserve.

Posted by: MPD119

I graduated from a full time academy just recently(less than a year), and I had the reserved academy training from couple years back from the same academy. In my opinion, the full time academy is so much harder than the reserved. Yes, the classes are the same but for me I needed to get up early in the morning every single day(sometimes in pain) and be at the academy not on time but early. Some people may able to do the same but if you do it every single day for six months, that's different. Also PT everyday, study everyday and few tests every week. When I was in the reserved academy, I didn't have the same pressure/pain like I had in the full time academy. Going to the reserved academy its like going to school, but the full time acadmey its like HELL(the real academy feeling).

Posted by: bosco2999

I have attended all three. The R/I, the SSPO and the Full time Municipal Academy. I would say that the R/I is not enough training to put someone on the street. The SSPO is an excellent academy along with MPOC. I started my career as an auxiliary (never forget where you started from)I had full police powers,chapt.90 and carried a gun. I then went full time as a University police officer. and part time and eventually full time for a town. My opinion is make one academy. Then we get rid of looking down at the auxiliary or campus etc. In the end we are all blue. If your getting your ass handed to you, who cares what type of police officer they are as long as the are blue. As you all know that one academy will not happen so do away with the R/I and put the SSPO in place of that. The troopers in New Braintree do a great job.

Posted by: splewis1977

From everything I have seen, I honestly believe on the job training is the most important. I have seen some guys come out of the academy and be on 2 years and still not have a clue. I have also seen R/I or SSPO who, with the right FTO, become FAR better Officers. I think its the nurture Vs. Nature

Posted by: AUXCAPT

I know that I am jumping into this discussion late. There is a lot of good discussion on what the training for auxiliary and reserve officers should be. The following is from the California POST. California has a tiered system that specifically ties your duties to the level of training that you have accomplished - and breaks the training out into three classes so that an officer can obtain full peace officer status (equivalent training) over a period of time. Take a look at the California model - as it seems to solve many issues that have been presented in this discussion. It may seem radical from our way of doing things in Massachusetts - but it makes sense.

The California Reserve Peace Officer Program (RPOP) is composed of members of our society who choose to dedicate a portion of their time to community service by working as part-time employees or volunteers with law enforcement agencies. These officers work with full-time regular officers to provide law enforcement services at the city, county, district and state levels. Approximately 600 law enforcement agencies currently employ nearly 7000 reserve officers.
Reserve peace officers may perform a number of general and specialized law enforcement assignments, including but not limited to:

Uniformed patrol
Investigations
Marine/boat patrol
Search and rescue
Mounted posse
Special events
Translators
Computer specialists
Chaplains

Many law enforcement agencies established reserve programs during the Second World War. Since that time the number of reserve peace officers has increased and their duties and responsibilities have expanded. The legislature has recognized the importance of reserve peace officers and has adopted standards for selection and training, which have enhanced the professionalism of the RPOP.
Reserve peace officers are required by Commission Regulation 1007(a) (doc) to meet the same selection standards (e.g. personal history investigation and medical and psychological screening) as full-time regular officers. Commission Regulation1007(b) (doc) outlines the minimum training requirements for reserve peace officers.
The Legislature has established three levels of reserve peace officer to provide flexibility to law enforcement agencies. The duties of the different levels of reserve officer are described below:
Level III Penal Code sections 830.6(a)(1) and 832.6(a)(2)

Level III reserve officers may perform specified limited support duties, and other duties that are not likely to result in physical arrests, while supervised in the accessible vicinity by a Level I reserve officer or a full-time regular officer. Additionally, Level III reserve officers may transport prisoners without immediate supervision. (162 hours of training)

Level II Penal Code sections 830.6(a)(1) and 832.6(a)(2)

Level II reserve officers may perform general law enforcement assignments while under the immediate supervision of a peace officer who has completed the Regular Basic Course. These officers may also work assignments authorized for Level III reserve officers without immediate supervision. (completed level III plus level II for an accumulated total of 386 hours)

Level I Penal Code sections 830.6(a)(1) and 832.6(a)(1)

Level I reserve officers may work alone and perform the same duties as full-time regular officers. (completed level III, level II and Level I training for an accumulated total of 664 hours - plus a 400 hour FTO program)

For a quick view of appointment levels, description of authority, assignment, supervision and training, please refer to the Reserve Peace Officer Status Summary Table (pdf).

Posted by: ferus fidelitas

place I work for did away with p/i's and specials about 15 yrs ago -we never had an auxillary - the p.i's all lacked the experience, screening and training that the full timers had - too much of a liability and the full time guys always raised an eyebrow at their judgement and motivations.. - more departments appear to be dumping part timers and volunteers, rather than expanding their use.. training is one thing, consistent and well rounded experience is another... the reserve academy and reserve officer's experience seems to lack both - big time.. I did all 3 academies and the DOC academy - experience was the best teacher.. who knows, maybe it's ok in the sticks of western Massachusetts, but certainly not in the well populated areas

Posted by: Doberman

It would be a great idea but the problem that I see is that most, if not all intermit/reserve officers work for free ( or basiclly, low pay) with the exception of details. Also the acadamy is almost 6 months long now. Most people doing this job part time can't afford to not work for 6 months and also pay out of pocket for the acadamy.

Posted by: ejdet

I think that California has an excellent training program for reserves it consists of the following:
Level III-- Lowest Level, no police powers. Usually transports prisoners from the station to the county jail and processes paperwork.
Level II--Police powers while supervised by a full time officer or a level I trained officer. Not eligible to apply at an agency as a full time officer.
Level I-- Full police powers on and off duty, same amount of training as a full time officer. Able to apply at an agency as a full time officer.
This was/is an excelllent way to go. You got your feet wet and you were able to keep a full time job while in training. When all is said and done you have over 700 hours of training.

Posted by: Shawnybig

A difficult problem my department has is retaining officers we send to the SSPO Academy. We lose 100% of the officers we send to hire paying College Jobs. My department (DPH Police Shattuck) is dealing with numerous assaults (we average about 300 a year) almost everyone has infectious diseases and drugs are all over (80% of clients have substance abuse issues), we have a 260 bed homeless shelter, methadone clinic, needle exchange van, another homeless shelter for the mentally ill, an aids unit, the only court ordered TB unit around, a womans substance abuse center, a halfway house for those with addiction and hiv, we have more level 3 sex offenders than any other address in the state (170 Morton st Jamaica Plain) and our pay is aweful, we recently had an article 17 upgrade hearing at HRD and only were recommended for a one step upgrade, and that didn't get funded by the govenor. I lost an officer to Tufts this week and his starting pay there will be about $20,000 higher. We need to find a way to train and retain these officers.

Posted by: PearlOnyx

Shawny,

I used to go to the Shattuck all the time when I worked corrections. That place is truly the black hole of society in Massahusetts. I used to love eating lunch in the cafeterian, with the drunk homless guy sitting at the table next to me nodding out and drooling all over himself. This was an everyday occurance. On a more serious note, the pay is so bad there, you are never going to retain anybody unless it changes.

Posted by: j809

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnybig

A difficult problem my department has is retaining officers we send to the SSPO Academy. We lose 100% of the officers we send to hire paying College Jobs. My department (DPH Police Shattuck) is dealing with numerous assaults (we average about 300 a year) almost everyone has infectious diseases and drugs are all over (80% of clients have substance abuse issues), we have a 260 bed homeless shelter, methadone clinic, needle exchange van, another homeless shelter for the mentally ill, an aids unit, the only court ordered TB unit around, a womans substance abuse center, a halfway house for those with addiction and hiv, we have more level 3 sex offenders than any other address in the state (170 Morton st Jamaica Plain) and our pay is aweful, we recently had an article 17 upgrade hearing at HRD and only were recommended for a one step upgrade, and that didn't get funded by the govenor. I lost an officer to Tufts this week and his starting pay there will be about $20,000 higher. We need to find a way to train and retain these officers.

Dude, why are you still there, leave, that job SUCKS, jump ship like your fellow brothers and sisters. DPH,DMH,DMR will never change, always will be a shitty paying job, been there and it sucked.

Posted by: Edmizer1

The R/I academy isn't enough for most law enforcement jobs. My town just hired a couple of guys and put them on the street with a waiver pending the full-time MPOC because they had the R/I academy. Good guys with alot of potential but we were shocked about how little they knew. We learned real quick that they could not be on their own before attending an MPOC. The mall security (specials), small campuses, and town specials that work details only can generally get away with the R/I. There will always be a tiered system. Some places just don't need full training or the SSPO. I have a friend that worked on a campus that just went to the R/I. The place employed about 15 guys and the dept made about 5 arrests a year for stuff which wasn't too hard to figure out. The R/I was perfect for them.

Posted by: jgreen902

I know that in certain towns, like mine, you have to become a reserve officer before you can be a full timer, so many people do not have a choice of attending the full time academy. Like many of you, if I had the choice I'd rather have just one academy. But I also agree that most officers will gain knowledge and experience from seeing things first hand, no matter what academy they have gone through.

Posted by: RICHARD

Spread The Word Out There Is A Reserve Academy In 06/09/08 In Waltham

Posted by: misconceived

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICHARD

Spread The Word Out There Is A Reserve Academy In 06/09/08 In Waltham

You already did by bumping 4 old threads.

Posted by: billb

Well since this old thread got bumped... it's 22:08, I'm in Texas and definately not studying like I should be...

I attended the Boylston R/I Academy. For us it was perfect, we needed the criminal, constitutional and motor vehicle law training according to Massachusetts.

I am not the first the AF sent but I was the last. The MPTC will no longer allow us to attend... so we get all of our training and certification from the MSP. Our attendance, however, was in addition to our training.

Posted by: Delta784

Quote:

Originally Posted by billb

I attended the Boylston R/I Academy. For us it was perfect, we needed the criminal, constitutional and motor vehicle law training according to Massachusetts.

I am not the first the AF sent but I was the last. The MPTC will no longer allow us to attend...

Don't take it personally; the MPTC is apparently taking the "Municipal" part of their title in a literal way, because my in-service classes now are half the size they used to be. There are no more campus, housing, environmental, or other police agencies that aren't city or town allowed to attend anymore. I think some PD's complained because they weren't getting seats in classes, and that was that.

Posted by: 5-0

Well, since this thread got bumped, I'll add my 2c. I went to both the R/I and the SSPO. I think that the benefit of attending a full-time academy goes beyond just learning laws, tactics, etc... It's the whole culture of Law Enforcement that you get immersed in. I truly think that it makes a difference. You don't get that from a p/t academy. You learn attention to detail, functioning in a stressful environment, and communication skills, that just don't lend themselves to a p/t setting. In my opinion. I have said many times before that your FTO training will make or break whatever you do though.

I look back at the R/I training I had, and I had soooooo much to learn. I know that people have stories of some full time academy trained guy that they thought was a tool... etc... I can tell you that I know a HELL of a lot more R/I guys that are a danger to themselves and others. And, there is a DISTINCT difference between guys that went to the SSPO and guys who got waivered (we have both on my job). That doesn't mean they are bad guys or gals. It just means that there are real consequences to consider. Why do f/t academy trained guys have to run with a veteran for many weeks, when some p/t guys get a gun, car, and a town? Are there exceptions to the rule? of course. But to say that, you have to admit that there IS a rule...

I would love to see the day that we have 1 basic academy for everyone, and each dept, can do their specialized FTO/Academy above and beyond. I do recognize the staffing challenges that small towns face, and that the R/I guys fill a void. I am just speaking theoretically as to what I would like to see some day.

Posted by: 2-Delta

I think the way they do it a few states up is the way to go. One all inclusive academy, locals to state, that then branch off at the end in order to do specialized training per your job description.

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