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Main Page Vets Status/Vets Preference/Vets points
(Click here to view the original thread on the MassCops Message Board)

Posted by: mpd61

Okay,
lets get a thread started so as not to get pegged with the "Off Topic" citation.

Posted by: Randbo

Never, Vets points are pointless!! I agree with their use after world war II and Vietnam but not for sitting around putting gas in a hummer and doing nothing!! [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img] Most people will disagree with me Vets points should be gone!!

Posted by: q5_po

Randbo, GO AWAY, DUMBASS.

Posted by: tomahawk

Yeah, sure Randbo, I am sure all of the guys in the first Gulf War, in Afghanistan after 9/11, and heading back to the Gulf now for round 2 have no purpose. [img]graemlins/disappointed.gif[/img]

God save the Commonwealth if you ever get hired... and I am not talking about a police job - I would be nervous if you were bagging my groceries! [img]graemlins/astonished.gif[/img]

Here's an out-of-the-blue poem dedicated to you and your consistent display of fine grammar skills (not to mention intelligent comments) straight from my heart, Randbo:

Grab a dictionary
go to school
learn where to park
and get a clue!

For topic's sake (hey, I have to set a good example), I believe that veterans should receive preference, however the method in which it is given needs to be adjusted. I think the MSP-style "couple points on the exam" is fair.

-Mike

Posted by: Anonymous

Gee q5, Randbo gives his opinion & U don't like it so you call him a dumb-ass? I happen to agree with him that the point system should be revamped.
Someone who sits down the Cape in Otis AFB should get less points than some poor slob who's freezing his tail off on a mountainside in Afghanistan. Doesn't seem fair to me at all.
Should the guy who see's combat get more points? Bet your sweet @ss he should. I have nothing against giving what's due to somebody but the system needs a tune-up.

Posted by: union1

Well said Used2 [img]graemlins/puke.gif[/img] ::Civil Service::

Posted by: tomahawk

Used2Be,

I think Randbo says NO preference should be given whatsoever, he is not in favor of just reforming the preference system.

Sure, someone Osama hunting in those caves is busting their ass at the same time another serviceman may be hitting the bars in Twentynine Palms - but points cannot just arbitrarily be awarded. There is no scale that they can develop that can cover every given situation.

I say everyone who serves gets the same number of points tacked onto their written exam score, and then after that it is everyone for themselves.

The interview process should allow those with military service to use it to their advantage. Combat? Medal? Great, you're hired. You were scrubbing toilets in San Diego for 4 years? Sorry, I will take the guy with the college degree - better luck next time.

Who cares what the Civil Service Commission says a "veteran" is, let those doing the hiring judge each case on an individual basis.

-Mike [img]graemlins/mytwocents.gif[/img]

Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:

Originally posted by tomahawk:
The interview process should allow those with military service to use it to their advantage. Combat? Medal? Great, you're hired. You were scrubbing toilets in San Diego for 4 years? Sorry, I will take the guy with the college degree - better luck next time.

Begin rant here:

How do you draw a line like that? Just because one military job is more dangerous than another doesn't make it more important or worthy of consideration. Certainly the ground troops who were out exchanging fire did an important job, but just because the mechanic who rebuilt the engine in their truck never set foot in another country doesn't mean his job is any less important. How about the supply clerk who managed to see that medical bags were packed properly, or the clerical worker who kept records straight and got people home, or the guy that peeled the potatoes - and FED these soldiers??? One thing EVERYONE in the military has in common is that they had the guts to step up to the plate, put their lives on hold, and perform a service no matter how glamorous or menial for their fellow soldiers and more importantly for their country, including all the bleeding heart tree-hugging whiners who reap the benefits of the US military every day but always see fit to crap on its members...THAT is why they deserve AT LEAST a couple points on the exam. Randbo, I don't know what your problem is but my advice to you is get over it. If someone with military points got on a list ahead of you then either study harder next time or put your four years in and join the club.

Any moron who manages to attend enough classes on mommy and daddy's dime between bong hits & hangovers can get a college degree (notice I didn't specify CJ majors, although based on the last few CJ majors I've locked up, the line is beginning to blur), and they sacrifice nothing. To say that a veteran does not deserve any consideration for their actions and sacrifice illustrates thankless ignorance and naivite that should be an embarrassment rather than a viewpoint to be proud of.

Rant ends here.

Posted by: ROBOCOP1982

Quote:

Any moron who manages to attend enough classes on mommy and daddy's dime between bong hits & hangovers can get a college degree (notice I didn't specify CJ majors, although based on the last few CJ majors I've locked up, the line is beginning to blur), and they sacrifice nothing.

Sorry, but not every college student is attending classes on 'mommy and daddy's dime" some of us work our as&es of to pay the tuition. Therefore your point be is "an embarrassment rather than a viewpoint to be proud of." Sorry for the strong words, but i am coming off of a 12-8 shift with a ton of homework still to do. [img]graemlins/burningmad.gif[/img]

Posted by: ROBOCOP1982

You know what trooper, I may have been too fired up in my last post. After thinking about it, many do fit the description you gave....but not all. Then again it depends on what school you look at, and the economic background of the students attending. Having a college education is an important contribution to society and to law enforcement.

Posted by: epd408

I Agree with masstroopers 1 I think that Vets should get a preferance or points. They did sacrifice for this country in one way or another. Deciding to go to college after high school is not a sacrifice. It seems that the only people that truely have a problem with the system is the people that didnt have the balls to do a tour in the military. They found it more important to attend college, which if you knew you wanted to be a cop in this state was useless toward getting on, The only thing in this state that helps to almost grantee you a job is being a Vet and Im sure if you wanted to be in L/E in this state bad enought you knew that when you made your chioce after high school. Having a degree is nice but folks lets face it if your doing the highering who would you rather a person whos proven they can preform well under stress, has disapline, and dedication to a job or someone who sat in a classroom for a few years and learned stuff thats almost useless toward Police work. Anyone can go to school and learn but not Anyone can heck the riggers of military life which shows me that the vet would be more appt to stick it out and last when the sh%t hits the fan then someone whos never proven they can handle real stress other then a few term papers due on a monday morning. So I do agree with vets getting a preferance maybe not total preferance but at least a few points. Whats everyone option here about disabled Vets should they get any preferance? Also sorry for the spelling errors.

Posted by: ELO

This topic just is not going away is it?

Posted by: q5_po

Right-on MT1. Nuff said! Join the big green gun club or Shut up and thank a Vet for your freedom!

Posted by: Wolfman

Quote:

Originally posted by ROBOCOP1982:
You know what trooper, I may have been too fired up in my last post. After thinking about it, many do fit the description you gave....but not all. Then again it depends on what school you look at, and the economic background of the students attending. Having a college education is an important contribution to society and to law enforcement.

Exactly, and that's why we have the Quinn Bill.

Military service is important too, that's why we have veteran's points.

Posted by: 725

To clarify,

We have veteran's preferance, not points . . . big difference and I think this is the issue that many are referring to.

Posted by: Burner1

I do not like repeating myself, but I'll make an exception in this case. Back in my younger and lesser informed days, the military was almost glamorous. We actually had the "Iron Curtain" to contend with. Now, we have all kinds of conflicts flaring up all over the place. One of the things both era's have in common is that no matter what your job was, you could be sent into conflict. Of course, depending on what your job was, some had more of a propensity to actually be in a conflict. While others, could be a cook, were still "serving" in a non-conflict area. The point is, everyone is a soldier. Case and point, Saudi Arabia, Scud missle debris lands on an air base. Thing is, the debris went into the living quarters (a tent), and if memory serves me correctly, 28 military members died. They were not Special Forces, PJ's, Rangers, etc. They were mechanics, supply, civil engineering, etc. Who would have thought? Bottom line, Vets get preference, points, whatever, it is well deserved. If you don't like it, too bad. Go and serve the four and let us know in "mass-net" land if your views are still the same when you come back. Put up, or shut up! (I can't stand cliche', but appropriate in this case).

Posted by: ROBOCOP1982

Just to clarify, I'm not maing a case against vet prefernce, or vet points on the exam. They deserve the points that they get.

Posted by: j809

Vets should get points and NOT absolute preference. Absolute preference is ridiculuous. I have seen VETS with a 70 get on some departments. If you score a 70 on a civil service exam you are either a moron or someone that should have their IQ checked, probably a borderline retard. State Police system is fair and gives two points. Why shouldn't someone get the job with a 102 (score and experience points) over a vet with a 70, where's the fairness then. Maybe they're afraid that if you gave a vet only two points or five, they might never get on any department. America is all about equality for all, this plus affirmative action stinks. I hope Romney will address this non-sense as well. [img]graemlins/burningmad.gif[/img]

Posted by: mpd61

JB!

Right on DUDE! Points, not top of the heap would be fair. Maybe a two tier system like Combat=4 points, Active duty and other=2 points!?!?

When you look at Police experience formula also,
Would think that would recognize everybody, and still give combat vets the nod. It would seem to be more equitable

Posted by: mikefo

Err Auh, They deserve the points, period. Been bumped by points myself, this is acceptable.

Mikefo

Posted by: mpd61

Quote:

Originally posted by mpd61:
Okay,
lets get a thread started so as not to get pegged with the "Off Topic" citation.

Ahhhh.....OK, So WTF happened to the poll? What the devil was so politically incorrect about it being in "fired up-hot topics"?

Oh well....Maybe I'm getting too old
[img]graemlins/sleeping.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/tired.gif[/img]

Posted by: bjm

I think veterans definitely deserve something for their sacrifice to our country. I totally agree with Masstrooper and Burner in that every person in the military deserves something not just people that got called to duty overseas. People that enlist in the military don't know what is going to happen to them or where they are going to be stationed so I think that if you enlisted and get called to active duty you should get some benefts. Military personnel stationed in the U.S. are just as important as personnel overseas are (just ask the people that were stationed at Pearl Harbor). Somebody has to protect our homeland. They are ALL very brave soldiers no matter where they are stationed or what they do, from the mechanic at Otis to the ground soldier in Afghanistan. Every person has to do their part for our military to be successful. You are only as strong as your weakest link. Now I don't think they should be given absolute preference but at least a couple points on a test. If a vet got a 95 on the MSP test and 2 points for being a vet=97. That might be good enough to get them an interview but if they are not capable of handling the job then this would be seen in the interview process and they probably wouldn't get the job. That is why I think they should be given only a couple points and not total preference. A couple points on a test, although it will help, will not automatically get you a job. There are many other things you need to go through before you are offered a job. A couple of points but not absolute preference is what I think should be given.

.... and by the way I was never in the military. Am I probably going to get passed over for a job for someone in the military? Very likely, but I chose an education over the military and that is the choice I have to live with and I am happy with my choice. For people that complain about the vet preference, go join nobody is stopping you from joining. For people that think going to school isn't a sacrifice, 4 years=$100,000 where I went and I paid for it myself (lots of loans of course). One hundred grand is a big sacrafice for me, but I am glad I did it.

Posted by: Randbo

Just trying to get the ball rolling, we have not had any good forums in a while! I was thinking about the Coast Guard so I can get some veteran points? Anyone know how they are to work for? Just need 190 days of being active for federal vet’s status or 90 for Massachusetts status!!

I learned how to use spell-check!! So congrats to myself! Thank god I don't dispatch, I would misspell the whole log!
[img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/puke.gif[/img]

Posted by: Joe B

Quote:

Originally posted by JB1971:
Vets should get points and NOT absolute preference. Absolute preference is ridiculuous. I have seen VETS with a 70 get on some departments. If you score a 70 on a civil service exam you are either a moron or someone that should have their IQ checked, probably a borderline retard. State Police system is fair and gives two points.

Absolutely correct, Jim. Try reading [img]graemlins/read.gif[/img] some reports written by "vets" that got hired with a score in the low seventies, it's like a first grader wrote it on the jungle gym at recess! [img]graemlins/whymewhyme.gif[/img]

Posted by: ROBOCOP1982

Quote:

For people that think going to school isn't a sacrifice, 4 years=$100,000 where I went and I paid for it myself (lots of loans of course). One hundred grand is a big sacrafice for me, but I am glad I did it.

Amen. [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img] That is exactly the point I am making. There are sacrafices whatever choice one makes. Do vets deserve preference? Yes of course they do, but do not underestimate the value of a college education.

Posted by: Anonymous

Here is an idea: Join the military and get your veteran status and then in turn have the military help pay for your college $$$$$$$.

[img]graemlins/nonono.gif[/img] This way you won't have to insert your tampons.

Posted by: PearlOnyx

Personally, I would like to see Vetran's points as opposed to Vetran's preference. Vetran's deserve something, so that's where the points come in. As far as preference goes, I think that we would want the best person for the job, when it comes to policing. Being a vetran doesn't automatically make some one a better police officer than an college graduate. A vet with a 70 really doesn't, in my book deserve a job over a college grad with a 99. It's all about qualifications. There are vets out there who are highly qualified, and there are vets, who live in my cell block...so let's give them the points, and go head to head on even ground, a test.

Now the test that's given, that's a whole other story...test is kinda crappy....

Posted by: ecpd402

Im for Veterans getting preferance. Im also for a point system. Such as the more Campaign medals the more points you can receive. Veterans deserve preferance and our thanks.

Posted by: MSP75

I agree with getting points and not preference. The MSP gives two points on the entrance exam, instead of throwing the individual to the top of the list. Preference should be thrown out, but the points should increase well above two points.
As a National Guardsman, I just came home last month after serving the commonwealth with Homeland Security, and then the nation over in Afghanistan, since Sept 2001. Randbo, I don't think it is too much for a dedicated soldier & citizen to get a bone from the government.

Posted by: sja813

Quote:

Originally Posted by PearlOnyx

Personally, I would like to see Vetran's points as opposed to Vetran's preference. Vetran's deserve something, so that's where the points come in. As far as preference goes, I think that we would want the best person for the job, when it comes to policing. Being a vetran doesn't automatically make some one a better police officer than an college graduate. A vet with a 70 really doesn't, in my book deserve a job over a college grad with a 99. It's all about qualifications. There are vets out there who are highly qualified, and there are vets, who live in my cell block...so let's give them the points, and go head to head on even ground, a test.

Now the test that's given, that's a whole other story...test is kinda crappy....

I couldn't have said it better myself....I think that is the fairest way to do things, all this vet/women/minority shit has to stop...best man woman vet for the job point blank, because it's to the point that the minority is the majority and the white male is the one that ends up screwed b/c he is just that...

Posted by: mikemac64

Just for the record, in the marine Corps, the guy who fights in the desert has to clean his own toilet when he gets back. At least in the Marine Corps anyway.

Posted by: Coops320

Should veterans get preference for the accounting job? How about a mechanics job? I would think most people answered these questions with a "no" Although the veteran going for an accounting job might have been a number cruncher in the service and is better qualified then the next person. I fail to see the similarity between military service and police work. If a preference was to be given to veterans I think military police should get preference or points on the civil service exam as the two jobs are more similar than a cook applying for a police officers position.
I would just like to see sound reasons FOR the veterans preference, i.e. "what makes them better qualified than someone who either scored higher on the test or a college student." I realise the flames are going to come my way and i accept that. Also, for the record, I am not unpatriotic and I do appreciate our armed forces. I just like to see logic behind a statement other than "Hey man i took a bullet in the ass, I should be a cop before a civilian."

Posted by: 2-Delta

I have to say I agree with Kmf294, I can understand giving those who qualify some extra points for the shit they've been through but I dont agree with the preferrence list. I know plenty of recent vets that would make shitty cops.

Posted by: mpd61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coops320

Should veterans get preference for the accounting job? How about a mechanics job? I would think most people answered these questions with a "no" Although the veteran going for an accounting job might have been a number cruncher in the service and is better qualified then the next person. I fail to see the similarity between military service and police work. If a preference was to be given to veterans I think military police should get preference or points on the civil service exam as the two jobs are more similar than a cook applying for a police officers position.
I would just like to see sound reasons FOR the veterans preference, i.e. "what makes them better qualified than someone who either scored higher on the test or a college student." I realise the flames are going to come my way and i accept that. Also, for the record, I am not unpatriotic and I do appreciate our armed forces. I just like to see logic behind a statement other than "Hey man i took a bullet in the ass, I should be a cop before a civilian."

Well,

I started this thread along time ago........................so here goes:

Veterans do get preference for initial hire into most federal jobs "mechanics, accountants, janitors, and cooks" included. Service to your country is just that period. The Federal Gov't sees it that way. As do many states.

"hey man I took a bullet in the ass" (while serving my country) does make more sense than "hey man I paid my way through college" or "hey man I scored higher than most" Logic. Ya see buddy, Honorable Military Service is usually indicative of a desire to Volunteer to Serve and contribute in some way to the American Society in which you were raised. In addition, Honorable Military service shows that a person can take/give orders, function for the team, be reliable and play well with others. Enough of this. I'm not shooting flames in your direction, but I don't think you get it after all thats been put here over the last few months.

I think the consensus is that Vets should have points, not preference. Sounds reasonable to me. Don't ya think they earned it? I do
=D>

Posted by: Coops320

Veterans do get preference for initial hire into most federal jobs "mechanics, accountants, janitors, and cooks" included. Service to your country is just that period. The Federal Gov't sees it that way. As do many states.
First: While veterans may receive some sort of preference in federal jobs I don't believe it is a blanket boost to all vets, and if it is, it shouldn't be. I don't believe you can pass one individual for another based soley on a previous job.

"hey man I took a bullet in the ass" (while serving my country) does make more sense than "hey man I paid my way through college" or "hey man I scored higher than most" Logic.
Second: Lets start off by saying I not only payed my way through college as well as working my way through college; not only working in the sense of a paying job but work in the sense of school work. Lets give credit where credit is due. For the most part getting through college is the same as getting through the military in the sense that it is as tough as you make it.

"In addition, Honorable Military service shows that a person can take/give orders, function for the team, be reliable and play well with others.Ya see buddy, Honorable Military Service is usually indicative of a desire to Volunteer to Serve and contribute in some way to the American Society in which you were raised."
Third: Previous job references also show these attributes. If you can't function as a team, give and take orders you probably shouldn't be doing anything more complicated than collecting money at a toll booth. It has been my experience that most enlist in the modern military to travel and for the benefits of the G.I Bill and other benefits...civil service test preference being one of them, not because the feel a need to contribute to the American Society in wich they were raised.

Fourth: I am with the consensus of points over preference, as preference is just plain ludicrous! Although, I would really like to hear some logical reasoning behind the idea of veterans preference. (points or straight to the top of the list) I am not flaming veterans, there are definatly those that did choose to serve out of a yearning to contribute to the country. I am just looking for logic as previously stated.

Posted by: Mikey682

Righ on Coops and KMF, I agree whole heartedly.

Military= Kill people and break stuff, while trying to avoid being killed.
Police= Solve problems and bring bad guys before a judge

Military is definately a great place to show the qualities that MPD described, and I'm all for someone getting what is due to them. But I see no correlation between military work and civillian policing. Yeah I have not experienced either, but who's shitting who here. The only big similarity is you take an order or you get f*cked for disobeying one.

Posted by: Wolfman

....not again...

Haven't we been through this ENOUGH already?

Read the thread. The WHOLE thread, all three whatever pages of it. Everything's been discussed already - if you can't understand poeple's reasoning and points of view after that, either you aren't paying attention or you lack the cranial capacity to process this information.

Posted by: Irishpride

There are few things I hate more than old long drawn out topics being resurrected, but I happened to notice on the municipal police promotional exam postings that Veterans preference is +2 points. I find this interesting seeing as its a whole other preference for entry level (Oh well nobody every said HRD was supposed to make sense). Anyway how about everyone just let this topic fade out unless someone has something NEW to add (and no your personal rant that echos others' frustrated sentiments posted here 10 times over, is not new)

Posted by: Coops320

Just posting my opinion here that is all. (don't know if the "drop it" posts are directed toward me or not) I felt what I had to say was new, at least in this thread...I don't know about others as I am new to the board.Also the people that are helping to keep this thread alive are also the ones that post on it just to say "Not again", "Let it die" etc. Just keep in mind, if people are still replying to this thread there might still be an interest on the topic.

Posted by: Wolfman

...if you ask me.

Posted by: Killjoy

Tip to all you non-veterans: read Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers ; it will answer all your questions. "The noblest thing a man can do is put himself between harm and his cherished home"

Posted by: Opie

I'm not a Vet and I paid my way through college so, I'm not knocking the Vet's service to our country, but points over preference is the way to go. The top spot in my town is going to go to a vet that got an 80. Give me a break! MSP does it, why not the municipal p.o. Exam.

Posted by: union1

Again, I say.. Stop talking and start writing letters! Lets let this thread Die..

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